Talk:Ender's Game
Removed the paragraph that said "While many claim the novel to be "deep", or to have some semblance of literary merit, Ender's Game does not quite fulfill these praises. Ender's Game is instead, a very entertaining work of science fiction." This is POV and unencyclopedic and sounds like the closing section of a review of the book, not an article about it.
Umm...Noticed this little bit in the article
A "jeesh" is a word coined by Orson Scott Card for use in Ender's Game. The word means a group, posse, gang, army, etc.
and remembered that in my Arabic textbook (Al-Kitaab fii Ta`allum al-Arabiyyah), a jaysh was defined as an army. Maybe it came from Alai?
Hi, whoever else is editing this at the moment. Good mods. :)
- Hi yourself. Thank you. I just read Speaker for the Dead a few weeks ago while in L.A. Good series. --KQ 18:09 Aug 31, 2002 (PDT)
Yup, it certainly is. I'd do entries for Xenocide and Children Of The Mind except it's 2:30am, my head hurts, and i've not read them for a while. I feel i'd probably butcher it. :)
- I'll be starting Xenocide in a few weeks. :-) But first I have books to read for school. --KQ
Xenocide's a bit of a trek, I find. But has good stuff in it. Mostly typing this to try out that cool User: code. Here we go... --AdamWill
Yea hey i was just wondering about the short story what is the deal with that i want to get a hold of one. JS.
The original short story can be read in its entirety on Card's web page: http://www.hatrack.com/osc/stories/enders-game.shtml :-) Koyaanis Qatsi 16:29 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I don't recall the book mentioning that buggers were more like ants than any other hive-type insects. So I have changed the adjective to "insect-like" rather than "antlike"
---Misfit 17:27, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Some military colleges have used Ender's Game as a textbook on leadership.
Which colleges and when, and how? Or is this wishful fanboy thinking?
- I know the marines training center in Quantico virginia does. →Raul654 03:10, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)
Seperate article for the series
Should we have a seperate article for the series as a whole (as with Foundation Series), or should we just locate the series information here? →Raul654 03:10, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I agree, it should have a separate article. By the way, I don't like how the preceded by/followed by links make Chidren of the Mind followed by Ender's Shadow. I think an internal order would be better than the chronological one, just like in the case of the Robots/Empire/Foundation series. IMHO Ender's Game should have:
[deleted the not-very-clear tables]
etc.
What do you think? Ausir 22:44, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I agree that the series should have its own article. I'm not particularly fond of the tables, however. I had a hard time figuring them out, and I've read the series. →Raul654 22:49, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)
Hmm, maybe you're right. How about having two different table orders then? As there is no connection between the Speaker trilogy and the Shadow series apart from both being derived from Ender's Game, so having "Children of the Mind" followed by "Ender's Shadow" doesn't seem right to me. Maybe like this:
Ender's Game:
| Preceded by: The Polish Boy |
Ender Series |
Followed by: |
| Shadow Series |
Speaker for the Dead:
| Preceded by: |
Ender Series |
Followed by: |
| Shadow of the Giant | Shadow Series |
|
Ender's Shadow:
| Preceded by: |
Shadow Series Ender Series |
Followed by: |
Shadow of the Giant:
| Preceded by: |
Shadow Series Ender Series |
Followed by: |
(as I suppose he's going to connect the Shadow Series to the Speaker trilogy somehow in the last Shadow book - IF Shadow of the Giant is the last one, of course).
Does it make more sense now? :) If this version also isn't clear enough, I vote for simple internal chronology instead of publishing order. Ausir 23:28, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I like it them, but I am not fond of having two articles for the series (Shadow Series and Ender Series). →Raul654 23:42, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)
Both can link to the same article (Ender Series and Shadow Series), and be displayed separately only in this table :). Ausir 00:04, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
How about instead of calling them "Ender series" and "Shadow series" (which are distinctly misleading), we call them "Ender Quartet" and "Bean Quarter". Also, we should link one (but not both) to the Ender's Game series article (that does not yet exist). →Raul654 00:26, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
It does now: Ender Series :) Ausir 00:32, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- FYI - I moved it to Ender's Game series, which I think is a better name. →Raul654 00:33, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
I added the new table to the Ender's Game article, and linked Ender Quartet to Ender's Game series, and Shadow Quartet to the paragraph on Shadow Series in Ender's Game series. Ausir 00:41, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I saw - it looks good! →Raul654 00:42, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
Sentence incomplete
Near the end, there's a sentence that ends "this has been dubbed the." Anyone know what that's supposed to be?
- Hehe, yea - I tend to do that when I write a long article. I fixed it now. →Raul654 23:41, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)
Cleaned up table format
I did some cleanup on the table markup in the article to make both the markup and the table cleaner. Gray for the header background is just an arbitrary neutral choice. Just wanted to catch it before it propagates too far. :-) Also--I could quickly change this to the newer wiki table markup if you wanted--even less markup's involved. Elf 01:35, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, absolutely. Please do. →Raul654 01:38, Feb 19, 2004 (UTC)
- OK, I did. Also stuck tags around the table to reduce the font size somewhat because I think full-size table text looks a little too in-your-face. But that's easily removed if others don't like it. Elf 01:59, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)
check this out
military nintendo complex
http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id390/pg1/index.html
Prescient for predicting newsgroups?
I'm curious why Card would be "remarkably prescient" for writing about things similar to newsgroups, on-line discussion boards and blogs, since it was published in 1985 and that sort of thing had already been going on for at least 10-15 years (though nothing was called a "blog" at the time, and I'm not sure that what Card was writing had much resemblance to the blogs of today).
Even the idea of being able to hide your identity so people wouldn't dismiss you for reasons such as "he's only a kid" were well known (although the famous cartoon "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog" wasn't published until 1993). What Card did get right was how important something like the Internet would become, but to many people on the Internet and other on-line communities of the time, it wasn't that big a leap, it was just wondering when it would happen (though few predicted just how fast it would explode once the trigger, i.e. Mosaic, was pulled).
- I agree. Usenet was created in 1979, and BBSes were popular in the early 1980s. The first "true" laptop, the GRiD Compass 1101, also came out in 1982, according to the Wikipedia article, and was being used in the Space Shuttle during the 1980s (i.e. they weren't too obscure for Card to have known about them). So Card didn't foresee much technology that didn't already exist (besides holographic displays, IIRC, which still don't exist); rather, he predicted their eventual ubiquity, which wasn't that unique for an SF writer even then (Neuromancer beat him to the punch, for example). skoosh (háblame) 19:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Hitler connection
I've read an interesting article on Kuro5hin, and am checking out the claims made within. It is interesting to note that there was really an essay entitled 'Ender and Hitler: sympathy for the superman' which appears to make the case that the book Ender's Game is an apology for Hitler and a justification for genocide.
I do believe that these elements should be included within, and hopefully we can get some more background on this issue. The Kuro5hin article link from the first paragraph is an excellent place to start. --ShaunMacPherson 07:10, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Having read the essays, I'm not certain the 'controversy' is of a stature worth including. A minor author writes a weak critical essay that Card rebuts, and the whole thing is forgotten until her boyfriend dregs it up on kuro5hin as a personal attack on Card to get more attention, and to further drag some dead author's name through the mud with a dubious account of a drunken party that's directly rebutted by someone else there.
- Do you have a source for the rebuttal? I read that it appeared in the same magazine; is it available online? --Yooden
- For Card's rebuttal, I think it's as inaccessible as the original article. For the reuttal of the party story, look in the comments of the Kuro5hin article. JJ 04:25, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Just because someone thinks there's a controversy doesn't really mean there is. JJ 06:04, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Just to round out the details (rather than just mention the first article and leave it), I've added some detail on the four essays / articles that touch on this topic and described them at a very high level. No, I don't think this article is the place for a long debate on the nature of Ender Wiggin. Partially, this is because I don't think it's fair to Card. He has said that that was not his intent, and while it's fun to speculate past that, I don't know that it's useful. However, this debate is a matter of record, and should be noted for historical purposes. -Harmil 29 June 2005 21:06 (UTC)
- I clarified a bit about Kessel's essay. It's not actually about the Hitler issue, but it does touch on it. Kessel is actually writing about the intention-morality system that Card promotes. I also added another section about some serious critical discussion of the book that expands on Kessel's essay a bit and also mentions Norman Spinrad. -- Bornyesterday 14:03, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
"The criticism seems invalid however, for Ender is not really a leading force in the conflcit, in fact he is more like a tool used for an end."
This is biased and should not be included. Seems is not a word you should see in a encyclopedia User:Thorton
- The whole Hitler 'controversy' is a laughable smear campaign by a handful of crackpots, and I fail to see how it can possibly be considered appropriate in an encyclopedia article. I'm calling for removal of that section until someone can provide examples of Wikipedia articles with similarly obscure criticism that has been deemed suitable for inclusion. A Kuro5hin thread and some isolated article in an SF journal are not sources of notability. "In particular several authors have made the case..." - This is ridiculous. "Roger Williams" is not some sort of author. Self-publishing sci-fi on the Internet is a hobby, not a profession. The opinions of some Joe Blow writing Kirk/Spock fanfic are not grounds for a consensus among 'several authors'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.79.138.212 (talk • contribs)
- Also, I am not sure that she represents a "heavy" in the field. She doesn't have any hits on Amazon.com, and I can't really see her having any credibility. This has been flimsy since the beginning. Why is it still here? -Scm83x 07:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Typical over analysis that every popular literary work gets. Get rid of it. Yoink23 19:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Influences
I removed the following claim that Evangelion is inspired from Ender's Game from the article. This is a dubious claim and it shouldn't be in the article without proof. The supposed "parallels" are weak (Ender is a superman, Shinji is a wimp; Graff is a kindly fat man, Ikari is a cold lonely bastard). There is no really convincing evidence of "inspiration" (unlike say Lion King/Kimba the White Lion), and since Ender's Game is AFAIK not especially well-known in Japan there's no reason to think that the Evangelion creators might have read it. Redquark 2 July 2005 18:21 (UTC)
- Ender's Game is widely regarded as the inspiration for the anime series Neon Genesis Evangelion, although anime otaku and purists tend to react violently to any comparisons. Nonetheless, the characterization in both the anime and novel are extremely similar, such as drawing parallels between Ender and Shinji, or between Colonel Graff and Commander Ikari.
- I was under the impression that the main inspiration for Neon Genesis Evangelion was the New Testament, with Shinji as the unwilling Jesus figure. =FaxCelestis 22:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Bean
There doesn't seem to be mention of Card's book Bean. Why's that? - Ta bu shi da yu 13:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- As far as I know, there is no such book. Do you mean Ender's Shadow? Head to Card's website to check for the book you're thinking about. -Scm83x 13:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Revisions in 1991 version?
I've heard that some of the changes in the '91 edition could be considered significant. Anyone know what the changes were (or a site that lists them)?
Short Story vs. Full Book
I just read the original short story as per Card's website and it doesn't merely focus on battle school like is stated in the article. It Goes from when Ender becomes an army commander in battle school to after the war, when Anderson and Graff are sitting in the park. I didn't want to change it since I'm so new to the topic. Yoink23 20:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Special Edition?
Does anyone have any idea what the “Special Complete Edition” means? What was added to make it “Complete”? —Frungi 03:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)