Talk:Shopi

Description of the dialect

Lots of problems with this article. Needs sourcing from a mainstream book in Bulgarian phonetics.

1.The article calls the variable /ja/ a diphthong, but it is not a diphthong in most cases, since it only makes the preceding consonant palatalised (also, Boyadzhiev's 1998 grammar, vol.1, phonetics, refuses to speak of "diphthongs" in Bulgarian at all).

2.The statement that the Shops pronounce variable /ja/ as /ə/ in sedja (седя) is wrong too, because this is not a variable /ja/ at all - it is originally a nasal (big yus), and the use of <ja> in modern standard written Bulgarian in its place was just an orthographic decision (should have been a ьъ or something, etymologically). It is not pronounced /ja/ in standard Bulgarian either - it's /jə/ or /^jə/, as it should be from an etymological point of view. Compare mo~zh > məzh (мъж). The difference is that the Shops omit the palatalisation.

3. The bit about /l/ seems like nonsense, too. AFAIK, the sound shouldn't be labialised at all; rather, it may be replaced with a labial /w/ (perhaps somewhat velarised) "before back vowels, consonants and in the end of the word". This has been reported to occur in the speech of young people (see main article about Bulgarian language, where this is attributed to a phonetics book by V.Zhobov), but it is hardly a feature of all standard Bulgarian as reported here; and I have never heard of it being a feature of Shop speech (in fact, to the extent that I have heard it, I'd say that this is not the case, at least not in authentic middle-age Shops; I have my own speculations as to where "wawe"-like pronunciations are to be placed in terms of dialect geography and sociolinguistics, but that is another story).

I'm not making any changes now, because I don't have a book about Bulgarian dialects at home. I would need to go to the library to source my changes and perhaps improve the article in other respects, too. For the time being, I am just placing a factual accuracy tag. --194.145.161.227 21:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This is me again, this time logged in. Still haven't found time to rewrite this, but am moving some of the worst stuff to the talk page. --Anonymous44 15:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

In most places, the /l/ sound is pronounced labialized (more like /w/) before front vowels (e, и), as well as back vowels (a, ъ, o, у). This is in contrast to standard Bulgarian where /l/ is labialized only before back vowels, consonants and in the end of the word.

Shop: лале /lwalwe/; standard Bulgarian: лале /lwale/ (tulip)

Rewrote the section based on Stoykov's dialectology, based in particular on the South-Western dialects and assuming that the Sofia and Elin-Pelin dialects to be closest to stereotypical Shopski. The following bits remain to be sourced:

• Accusative case, long form (after prepositions): masc. него/ньега (nego/njega), fem. нея (neja), neut. него/ньега (nego/njega) , pl. них (nih)

Stoykov says this about some dialects, but not any that could be identified as "Shopski".

• The possessive pronoun for the third person plural is нихния (nihnija) or нихнио, ни'нио (nihnio, ni'nio), нихната, ни'ната (nihnata, ni'nata), etc.
• The interrogative word "що" ("što") is used more often than the standard "какво" ("kakvo"). Shop: Що сакаш? (Što sakaš?); standard Bulgarian: Какво искаш? (Kakvo iskaš?) (What do you want?)

• Palatal /n/ and /l/ ("нь", "ль") can stand at the end of a word or before /e/. Shopski: тигань /tiganj/, конье (konje); standard Bulgarian: тиган (tigan, "frying pan"), коне (kone, "horses")

Stoykov does says this about Samokov, Dupnica, Petrich and Kyustendil, but not about the South-Western group as a whole, and not about Sofia or Elin-Pelin.

• The forms for the relative and the interrogative pronouns and adverbs are the same. Example: Shopski че ме видиш, кога ме нема (če me vidiš, koga me nema) vs standard Bulgarian ще ме видиш, когато ме няма (šte me vidiš, kogato me njama) (idiom: you'll never see/catch me)

I have the same impression, but can find no confirmation in Stoykov. ----Anonymous44 18:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Subject of this article

This is a quotation of the article introduction section: "This article is about the Shopi in Bulgaria. The name Šopi is also used for ethnographic groups in Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia, which are not treated here." - so my question is: if these etnographic groups in Serbia and Macedonia are not covered by this article, by which article are they covered and where can I (or any other user) write about them? Should we then consider renaming this article to "Shopi in Bulgaria" and creating another one named "Shopi" where we can write about entire Shopi population in all 3 countries? PANONIAN 09:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I think it means, as obvious, that the article does not contain info about the shopi outside Bulgaria. If the info in question gets into the article, the sentence in the lead should be removed. --Laveol ^T 12:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree this article to be enlarged, encompassing all Shopi. Jingby (talk) 12:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd have nothing against that, provided that one condition is met: are the Shopi in Bulgaria, Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia a related ethnographic group? Do they share a common origin, customs, dialectal traits, etc.? The article currently is very in-depth on the Shopi of Bulgaria and their dialect and culture, I'm not willing to lose this. Todor→Bozhinov 12:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Do they share a common origin, customs, dialectal traits, etc.? Yes, untill the early 20th Century they were described as Bulgarians, but later accepted different ethnic affiliations. What is the problem? Jingby (talk) 12:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

All Shopi do share same origin, but, no matter of the existence of some sources that you mentioned that describe them as Bulgarians, there are other sources that describe them as unique Slavic population of central Balkans that adopted Bulgarian, Macedonian and Serb national consciousness in recent times. So, as I see it, this article should describe entire Shopi population with all opinions about their origin. By some opinions, Shopi are of same origin as Torlaks, and thus, different sources mention different borders between Shopi and Torlaks populations, for example, map of Shopluk that I made according to the map created by Serbian geographer Jovan Cvijić include some parts of Serbia and Macedonia into Shopluk, while other sources claim that these areas are inhabited by speakers of Torlakian or Macedonian. All these opinions about origin of Shopi and about borders of Shopluk region should be mentioned here. PANONIAN 22:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Please provide these sources....I mean sources that could lead to the assumption that this is another ethnos... If such a statement is true, then there should be evidences going through the different time periods.. please provide such from medieval times, from ottoman times and after that. I am sorry about my scepticism, but i have never met such ones and that is why I am astonished by this comment. I understand the serbian point of view, but many (not all of them of course) of the serbian scholars are lead by the "Piemonte of the Balkans" political doctrine. They present the different ethnogeographical parts as different ethnoses that should be united by the serbs... So, please provide with the needed sources... There is not argue about the fact that representatives of the "shopi" group nowadays has serbian, macedonian and bulgarian national feeling. Please show this documents and historical evidences... I am particularly interested in them