Talk:Cloud computing

Criticism Section Removed

I added a criticism section to the cloud computing page a couple months ago. It was removed by User talk:Samj:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cloud_computing&diff=327762799&oldid=327762662

His reason for removal didn't make sense to me so I started a topic on his talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SamJohnston#Explain_removal

I am not making any progress. I just keep getting new and unsupported criticisms while my questions about his previous criticisms go unanswered. I want to fix the criticism section and repost it, but this is very difficult in the absence of any good feedback. Should I undo his removal? Should I escalate this to some one? Please advise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.142.40.6 (talk) 17:56, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Quoting the {{criticism-section}} template:

This article's Criticism or Controversy section(s) may mean the article does not present a neutral point of view of the subject. It may be better to integrate the material in those sections into the article as a whole.

Criticism sections tend to end up being coatracks for soundbytes that add little value and are often misrepresentative; valid criticisms should be integrated into the appropriate part(s) of the article. The three [in]famous quotes you've provided are individual opinions and misrepresent the positions of the free software community, Forrester and Oracle, and the primary criticism (a "seemingly broad and vague definition") is weak in comparison to the real issues around security, privacy, liability, etc. - "client/server" applies to virtually everything we do with computers these days but you don't see people bitching about its' definition now, do you? I've copied the section below for you to integrate into the relevant section(s) but I would suggest focusing on the issues rather than individuals' opinions. -- samj _in^out 02:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Critics of cloud computing cite its seemingly broad and vague definition. Oracle CEO Larry Ellison observes that cloud computing has been defined as "everything that we currently do" . Forrester VP Frank Gillett expresses similar criticism . Many technologies that have been branded as "cloud computing" have existed for a long time before the "cloud" label came into existence. Examples include databases, load balanced on-demand web hosting services , network storage, real time online services , hosted services in general , etc.

"***tend*** to end up being coatracks," "***may*** mean the article does not present a neutral point of view," "***may*** be better to integrate the material." Please address the issues. How is this particular criticism section a coatrack? How is it not neutral? Why is it better to integrate this material? Don't just profile and discriminate against all criticism sections without addressing the actual information contained within this specific criticism section.

"I would suggest focusing on the issues rather than individuals' opinions." Good advice. In this case the issue is that cloud computing has been defined as everything that we currently do. This fact is supported by the two industry CEOs that I cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.142.40.6 (talk) 19:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

By "tend to end up being coatracks" I mean "has in the past for this specific article". We rapidly end up with a sprawling mass of everything negative that's ever been said about the subject rather than a coherent discussion of each of the issues in turn. If you want to discuss privacy then create or extend a privacy section and describe the pros and cons; information is outside of your control (-ve) but doesn't get carted around on USB keys etc. (+ve). Regarding the definition, what we have is accurate and need not be precise - client/server was not precise and nobody cared. -- samj _in^out 19:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: "We rapidly end up with a sprawling mass of everything negative that's ever been said about the subject." And that is justification for removal? That's like me removing the entire cloud computing page because it breeds controversy and disagreement. Proponents may disagree with the critics, but that's no reason to nuke the whole thing. In fact, neutrality demands opposing viewpoints, does it not? Also, it's not hard to label the entire rest of the cloud computing article as a sprawling mass... it's a massive topic with tons of applications, not that this is necessarily a bad thing. 64.142.40.6 (talk) 20:45, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: "If you want to discuss privacy then create or extend a privacy section and describe the pros and cons." Good advice. I want to discuss criticism of cloud computing in general. A new criticism section seems the most appropriate since that discussion doesn't fit in any one subtopic. If any new information is posted to the criticism section which is more appropriately placed in an existing section then it's easy to move it. 64.142.40.6 (talk) 20:45, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Re:

Googolality

Google the term "wikiality", and "cabal". This will likely help you understand why your section on criticism was removed. -sine ur posts-

Cloud-computing isn't just the Internet

The first sentence should be modified. There is an entire industry around private cloud computing that is not delivered over the internet, but over private lines. Fonesurj (talk) 19:56, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I totally agree!

Within the Computer Science community, Cloud is used as a general term to describe a set of distributed services possibly running on different computers, networks and sites; that end users sees as a whole system. The term cloud has been used (before the term was picked up by the internet community) by Talarian and later by TIBCO to describe a set of PUB/SUB servers that clients regard as one. Ref: SmartSockets. Having one single entry point (endpoint), an uniform interface and login procedure to a set of distributed services may qualify that domain as a cloud.

Please modify as suggested.

--Malin Lindquist (talk) 07:36, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Illustration: "Cloud computing logical diagram" is missleading

The illustration gives the impression that there is only one cloud, which consists of all known internet service provicders such as Yahoo, Microsoft and Google. Instead, I would suggest something more general like this: CLOUD

--Malin Lindquist (talk) 08:25, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Confusing lead

I find the lead to be baffling. And please, no wisecracks about about using simple.wikipedia.org. Two others here read it and were perplexed too. Cheers. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:52, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, and yes, you are not alone. The introduction "clarity" issue will come up, get discussed, and other editors who disagree typically prevail — and remove the discussion from this page, as if the matter is settled. I find the introduction to be a poor reflection of the spirit of Wikipedia, and a poor reflection of the concept of an introduction. You can see an instance of the older discussion, which was removed from this page, HERE. 842U (talk) 15:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree: I think the lead is just plainly illogical. F.ex.:

The term cloud is used as a metaphor for the Internet

As far as I can imagine there are no terms that are metaphors. Terms are defined concepts precisely used in a certain technological or scientific contexts. Metaphors are just similes, almost the perfect opposition of a term. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 21:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

And the first paragraph of the lead is just an elaborate circular definition, defining the cloud by referring to the cloud. The entire intro needs a total rewrite. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 21:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Buzzword

Sounds like an emerging buzzword. Should then have Category:Buzzwords. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 21:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree! Now, we're one against the universe! Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 14:15, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreliable or misleading intro

I simply don't believe the intro. I get the impression that it claims that "cloud computing" is Internet. I believe it reflects a wish to equate "cloud computing" with Internet, which is factually wrong. I believe cloud computing is an amoebic resource allocation for program execution and memory resources, and also a resource allocation that is dependent on temporary need, much more than any predetermined resource allocation. Bussinessally this implies buying resources for the temporary needs, and no more. I believe that this would seem attractive to economists that don't want to see items of operational costs. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 11:29, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The following statement seems to me like gargish:

In concept, it is a paradigm shift whereby

IMHO, "In concept," is an intro to a definition or to an elaborate technical description, and whatever cloud computing is, it is not a paradigm shift. Possibly it emerged as a result of a paradigm shift, but the sentence confuses description and process of emergence, which seems like drunk-talk to me. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 11:40, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the lead needs to differentiate cloud computing from general use of the Internet better than it does at the moment. Some time ago I attempted to rewrite the start of the lead to be more meaningful, but I encountered resistance from User:SamJohnston - see discussion here. Letdorf (talk) 12:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC).

Article is for Technical Users

I believe that Wiki articles are needed to address on general users instead of specialists. This article is not very easy to understand and needs some more work in order to be understandable for all users. Beside of this, Introduction may need to be changed or modified to give first time users better impression and understanding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simonare (talk • contribs) 16:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

please rewrite the article or remove it ASAP

Thank God that the article is hard to understand. Would readers understand what is written they will end up with major misconceptions about what the cloud concept is all about? I agree that there is no clear concept of cloud computing and every systems architect defines it slightly differently. Despite having said that, the article is way different from what most in the profession have in mind when talking about cloud computing. To propose a cloud solution for my clients, I may en up with them responding – “we already have internet, Yahoo and Google access”. Article is very misleading and should therefore be rewritten or removed ASAP. --Malin Lindquist (talk) 07:06, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Critisism (light) on Cloud Computing

Trying not to be harsh, but... OK, check this: in cloud computing, if you mainly store your data online, even if you lock it and whatnot, it can still be hacked into and... well, then where's your file? someone took it, important or not, especially if it contains personal info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.184.4.221 (talk) 09:13, 28 January 2010 (UTC)