Jump to content

Talk:Electroshock weapon

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 68.231.189.108 (talk) at 15:20, 22 March 2010 (→‎Defenses ?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

WikiProject iconLaw Enforcement B‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the WikiProject Law Enforcement. Please Join, Create, and Assess.Law EnforcementWikipedia:WikiProject Law EnforcementTemplate:WikiProject Law EnforcementLaw enforcement articles
BThis article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

they ARE still claiming tasers are non-lethal

try going on their own website instead of just citing another wikipedia entry

"TASER® Weapons fire 50,000 Volts up to 15 feet, with more stopping power than a .357 Magnum. Absolutely the best non-lethal protection for your home"

They are non-lethal. So are BB Guns, but people have been killed by those. Just because something wasn't made to kill doesn't mean that it's impossible. Would you prefer that our LEO's simply go unarmed? Scissors aren't lethal weapons, but people have been stabbed to death by them. Should we ban them in schools? A few isolated accidents do not make an object a lethal weapon.98.192.103.41 (talk) 06:00, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Effectivness of electroshock guns

With regards to the claims that stun guns are ineffective in a self-defence situation, can you provide some more evidence for that than just one website? And are the people making such claims advocates of the use of conventional guns for self-protection - do they have another agenda, in other words? --Robert Merkel 22:23, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, I provided two more links (just by typing "stun guns worthless" and "stun guns useless" at Google brings up a lot of stuff!). By making some in depth-study some common points can be found between the various articles, reports, forums, stories etc.:

  • Stun guns seem to be only IRRITATING to a victim(?)/attacker if aimed at limbs, they are much more effective if aimed at the torso or even the head.
  • In such a case, it only causes pain but DOESN'T impair one's ability to fight back or move away from the gun.
  • They won't magically stop a punch/knife stab from being delivered to their intended target, and they also seem to have very little DETERRING power, unless used on people who CANNOT FIGHT BACK (handcuffed people, prisoners etc.).
  • The most effective ones are Tasers (which SHOOT their darts and have better chances of delivering a prolonged shock, and maybe Batons which give some extra range.
  • There are people who due to physical constitution (high skin resistance), clothing or even SPECIFIC TRAINING can resist the shock delivered by stun guns and fight back immediately. There are even people who use stunguns on friends or themselves FOR FUN !!!
  • Stun guns voltage can range from 50kV up to 750kV for some models, and anything under 200kV is mostly considered "irritating" by law enforcers.
  • There are free schematics around for building a home-made stun-gun, with the most common ones consisting of an oscillator circuit, a resonant circuit and a step-up audio transformer. Diode-Capacitor "voltage multiplier" circuits are avaiable too (I provided external links).
  • There are even people who LIKE being shocked by Stun guns! Check this link for starters, but a simple Google search will reveal that there are people around who like to experiment with stun-guns on thenselves "for fun" or as part of a S&M game...
  • As for the Righteous Warrior Temple...I'd suggest to check out their website. It's not very clear who/what they are, but they sure have a lot of pragmatism in their thoughts/articles!

EpiVictor 09:56, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

RWT seems to be yet another bullshido scam... Not sure, but I think it's been debunked over at eBudo, among other things. I would say they should not be accepted as a source for any article on Wikipedia. YMMV. That said, I would discount most electroshock weapons for self-defense use, except in the hands of someone who is already accomplished in hand-to-hand combat, due to the limied range and extended contact needed to incapacitate. A determined, drugged or skilled attacker will not, IMO, be deterred by a defender with such a weapon that does not have above-average familiarity with them, and a lethal knife attack can be executed in less time than most of these weapons take to stun. The executive summary: non-ranged versions are useful tools for a skilled hand-to-hand combattant, but otherwise more likely constitutes false security against really dangerous attackers. Again YMMV. This section should be fleshed out with better sources. Zuiram 03:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... pain to subjects who would not be able to escape or effectively defend themselves anyway (..., animals, ...): Some animals can quite well defend themselves against humans. Ask a vet or a livestock farmer or a zookeeper. Anthony Appleyard 09:36, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No deny on that. Consider however cattle prods, which are essentially stun-guns: Cows and sheeps e.g. rarely turn against humans, while the reaction of a rabid or guard dog or a lion or a bull to being shocked with a stungun would probably be quite different (either fear or fury). The reference in the article applies more however to those people torturing animals (...or other people, or even themselves...) with stunguns for fun, as they are a conventient and apparently "clean" way of inflicting pain, with little physical effort by part of the torturer. EpiVictor 13:01, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Re: Robert Merkel - I think you would be better off looking at the websites of those advocating the use of stun-guns - the majority are selling stun-guns and similar products themselves. They perhaps might not be the most impartial observers.

With regards to the two websites Epivictor posted, the OUPD site states that the "Air Taser 1" may be effective where the stun guns they tested were not. Paxton Quigleys page describes the "Air Taser 1" as ineffective for anybody but police. If you had read the entire OUPD page, you would have realized that the OUPD is against civilian possesion and use of any self-defense weapon. ANY. Guns, knives, OC, electroshock weapons. This is an extremely biased page which seems pointed towards discouraging weapon carry by OU students. I think the following quotation sums up their view on self-defense weapons. "The only self-defense "device" that OUPD endorses for use by the public is a simple, loud, whistle. (The kind you blow.) We even distribute "personal safety" whistles at some crime prevention events." If anyone can cite credible sources on the effectiveness of electroshock weapons, please do. These are almost laughable. Please find a source which has self-tested late-model military and police tasers, and preferably has experienced similar non-lethal weapons such as OC or CS/CN. The redacted citations are here: http://www.ou.edu/oupd/zappers.htm http://www.paxtonquigley.com/useless_weapons.html 69.131.241.137 21:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stun guns and cattle prods operate off of pain compliance and it is entirely possible to push through the pain and continue to attack. The current model Taser weapons disrupt neuromuscular control causing the person to lock up, even mid stride, and topple over. The effect overrrides any voluntary control of the affected muscles and cannot be overcome by force of will or dulled pain sensitivity due to drugs or adrenaline. The probes can arc through a cumulative two inches of clothing so they don't actually have to penetrate the skin to be effective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.72.191.20 (talk) 15:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, military combat training usually includes hand to hand against stun weapons. The taser is different from an electroshock weapon. Electroshock weapons operate on the heart or the large muscles of the rest of the body. Against the chest, they can trigger a heart muscle contraction that stays contracted for a few seconds. That stops blood flow until the shock is released, and usually knocks people down because they black out. Against other parts of the body, they basically work two ways. First, they cause violent muscular contraction that is sustained. This causes pain, cramping and depending where it is applied, debilitation due to loss of control. Second, the intense muscular effort causes those muscles stimulated to pull in large amounts of glucose from the blood stream which can cause a short term blood sugar low. This makes the person woozy and feel sick. It can also cause them to black out. Once in a while, this kind of stimulation can cause such violent contraction that the muscle tears, causing serious injury.
The effect of low blood sugar is less the better physical condition a person is in. For a well conditioned athlete, it's not a big deal. A person with a bit of practice can learn to use other parts of the body to get away from a shock stick type weapon.
Tasers use a different principle, and can't be defeated this way. Tasers in stun mode also can't be defeated except by moving away from them.
In all cases except a taser with the tines stuck to a person, a well conditioned or experienced attacker can deal with everything else pretty well and it is likely that an inexperienced person will be overcome by them.

69.238.171.100 (talk) 00:59, 23 December 2008 (UTC) J. Toradze[reply]

Article name

Does anyone actually use the name "Electroshock gun"? A google search for "electroshock gun" -wikipedia returns a mere 300-ish results, and many of those are uncredited Wikipedia mirrors. taser -wikipedia, by contrast, returns 792,000, and "stun gun" -wikipedia returns 433,000. I could see an argument between "taser" and "stun gun", but it seems to me that "electroshock gun" is a ridiculous place to put this article. --Delirium 04:47, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Kaldari 23:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an unreasonable name, as this article really talks about a variety of electric based weapons. I don't know that there's enough "Taser" specific information to justify a seperate article just for that. A "taser" is specifically a device that's capable of shooting barbs that pierce through clothing and skin to deliver a powerful and incapacitating electric shock. A "stun gun" is the handheld gizmo with 2 prongs that delivers a point blank zap and really just causes pain. These days, most tasers also offer a "drive-stun" mode which makes them work like a stun gun -- rather than firing barbs and piercing skin, they offer a stun gun type shock through prongs on the front which is significantly less debilitating than a real barbed taser hit.--TheCynic 05:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, naming the article "Electroshock Weapon", "Electroshock Device", "Eletric Weaponry" or similar might be better, since not everything being listed qualifies as a "gun". Meh.--TheCynic 20:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I like "Electroshock weapon". I think "stun gun" confuses the issue - in its prevailing meaning, none are shaped like firearms or fire projectiles, except the Taser, which has the "drive stun" mode, but really isn't a "stun gun". Flatscan 02:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the Article name should be changed to Electronic Control Weapon. This title covers both traditional stun technology and Electro- Muscular Disruption Technology like that which is found in the Electronic Control Device known as a Taser. This term is widely accepted in the law enforcement community and appears on several documents addressing that community as a whole. [1] [2] [3]Thank You.Wedy (talk) 19:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we should consider renaming this article. I don't know if there's any particular reason for the use of "electroshock".

Google WP:Search engine test:
  • "electroshock gun" 4,240
    • "electroshock gun" -Wikipedia 3,000
  • "electroshock weapon" 6,670
    • "electroshock weapon" -Wikipedia 5,470
  • "Electronic Control Weapon" 271
  • "Electronic Control Device" 155,000
    • "Electronic Control Device" -Taser 144,000; all of the results on the first page seem to be related to machinery

I'm leaning towards Electronic control device. There are no articles for either capitalization. If disambiguation is necessary, "(weapon)" can be appended. Flatscan (talk) 21:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree but think that disambiguation is necessary. Both 'devices' are ' weapons' and are classified in the " less-than-lethal weapons" category.
Google WP: Search engine test  :

Are those amps right?

I'm looking at a table in Cogdell's "Foundations of Electrical Engineering" (table - Physiological effects of electricity).

0.06 A(60mA) is stated as the lethal amperage your article, which seems to match the table (~80mA minimum for Ventricular fibrillation - possibly lethal). But paralysis or pain doesn't start until ~12 mA (by my table), which is 4 times the amperage you say a taser has. You would feel 3mA, but it would tingle, not hurt.

Also, http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr511392004 has some stuff that could be added to the controversy section. The gist is that police (and prison guards, etc) are using tasers in cases when they would otherwise use softer methods. The counter argument is that tasers fill a niche in the "resonable force" spectrum, or that tasers are safer than other "soft" weapons (like batons).

I believe the explaining factor is voltage. Although stun guns have low current, they have a very high voltage. Physiologically speaking, i think the taser works by 'passing' a huge potential difference (voltage) through the body in order to overcome resistance, trigger action potential, and reach all parts of the body, along with the resultant effects on muscular activity. A current of 2 mA is also sufficient to trigger action potential and cause an uncontrollable muscle spasm. Physiological effects are determined by a combination of voltage, amperage, and time; actual lethality is largely determined by amperage. High voltage and low amperage will not kill someone quickly but will have instantaneous effects on the body; low voltage and high amperage (coupled with an extended period of time) will be lethal but takes time to kill. An example of the latter would be an electric chair, which has a voltage value of approx 2000 V but a current of around 10 A. Compare this to a stun gun, which has an average voltage of around 250,000 V but a current of only .003 A. The same principle of high voltage, low amperage allows us to touch an operating Van de Graaf generator without any serious harm. SReynhout 09:44, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Inquiry

"In most of the 73 cases": exactly how many? --Cat out 13:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

history

Do any of the sources and links describe the history and chronology of the use of these weapons? --Espoo 06:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wheres the distinction here between tasers that act as cattle prods(and tasers) which administer mild electical shocks to cause pain and stun guns that shock to disrupt the nervous system? --60.241.229.55 11:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Effectivness

Can an ordinaty stun gun actually stun anyone through.. let's say jeans or just about any everyday clothes ?

Yes.. do a quick search on youtube for videos where law enforcement deploys this weapon.--DrRisk13 17:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image

  • I'm not extraordinarily opposed to the current computer-generated image, although I can understand other editors' potential uneasiness with it. Perhaps the illustrator could post a link to the model from which it was drawn, so that other editors could satisfy their concerns about verisimilitude. Ford MF 21:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism and the UCLA library incident

Pre-emptive strikes, and racial profiling? How perfect that the two coincide with todays current events. Pre-emptive strikes in Iraq, police racial profiling and torturing a Middle-Easterner in a Library, you sir should pre-empt yourself. Haramzadi 22:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Homemade 330V stun guns

The unsourced claim that homemade 330V stun guns could be fatal in the presence of arrhythmia or other existing conditions is questionable considering that typical production stun guns start at 50KV and no similar claims associated with them are included in the article. If the claim is about stun guns in general, it should be moved up to Deaths and injury associated with stun-gun use. If there is a source, e.g. an article written about the homemade stun guns, that makes this specific claim, it should be cited. Otherwise, the claim should be removed per Wikipedia:Citing sources. Flatscan 02:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The electricity running through your house is only 110 volts (230 in Europe, I think). So 330V could certainly kill the hell out of you. I believe the important part is how much amperage you're getting, but someone with more of a background in electricity could probably tell you more. 50,000 volts can stun you while 110 volts can fry you, or vice versa, it just depends on the amperage. I can easily imagine a home made stun-gun being built wrong and killing someone. I think the lesson here is "kids, don't try this at home". --TheCynic 20:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Point taken, I hadn't considered that distinction thoroughly. It is plausible that a lethal stun gun could be constructed from a very large capacitor charged by a high-voltage DC source. However, the flash units in the "disposable cameras" used are much the same as non-disposable cameras: battery to provide source power at low voltage, circuitry to boost the voltage, capacitor (limited physical size) to store the energy for quick release, and strobe to create the light. Cameras powered by 2 3V CR123A used to be common before rechargeables took over, and there is at least one commercial stun gun powered by the same combination. I would expect the instantaneous power between the homemade device and the commercial stun gun to be comparable. Interestingly enough, I couldn't find a source verifying that the Maine incident occurred. Flatscan 02:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are many factors involved in determining the level of danger involved in an electric shock. If you are talking about a source which has a low internal resistance and a continuous supply (like a battery or an AC wall socket), then anything over 24V is generally considered possibly dangerous, although a person under most circumstances would probably not have any harmful or painful effects from anything less than about 80V DC or 50V AC. It depends on how sweaty they are and whether the electrodes penetrate the skin or clothing, etc. Also, very high voltages tend to cause dielectric breakdown, so that you actually get more current than Ohm's law (using the resistance as measured at low-voltage) suggests. In the case of a capacitive source charged to a few hundred volts, the current will be VERY high initially, and will decay exponentially. The total energy delivered and the waveshape (current vs. time), as well as the path through the body, will determine the physiological effects. Flash capacitors are often 100uF or more, which would store about 5 Joules of energy at 300V. Typical cardiac defibrillator energy is 200 Joules per shock - but bear in mind that that is designed to guarantee total contraction of both ventricles of the heart. So, it is unlikely but definitely possible for someone to be killed by a 100uF capacitor charged to 300V. It would surely hurt a lot, and the peak current could easily be a half an amp (500mA), considering a human body resistance of about 1000 ohms (this is low in general, but possibly not for sweaty skin at 300V). Typical low voltage human body hand to hand resistance is about 100k ohms, depending upon how hard one grasps the electrical contacts. A person with a lot of sweat could easily be less than 10k ohms at low voltage, and a lot lower with dielectric breakdown at higher voltages. 209.6.248.221 05:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

UCLA Taser Incident

Adding new topic to discuss my edits as suggested by Anthony_Appleyard.

  • Anthony_Appleyard - could you cite this statement you added: "thus arousing suspicion that he might be not a student but an intruder looking for chances to steal." I can't find any statement to that effect in the UCLA Taser incident article. Flatscan 02:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • There was an incident at a university where I used to work, when a hardened criminal young man came in predending to be a student, and some security men had to restrain him with a hard fight. There likely have been many other such inciedents across the world. Ask a few universities' security departments. Anthony Appleyard 07:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for your response. I was hoping for something directly regarding Tabatabainejad or the UCLA library's policy. As I recall, articles that describe the policy say something like "to protect the safety of the students" without being more specific about from whom (e.g. "an intruder looking for chances to steal"). I appreciate your anecdotal evidence, but the phrase in question currently falls under WP:NOR or WP:V. Flatscan 04:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is not an anecdote, it is direct information from an official printed notice from the security men involved. Anthony Appleyard 06:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote and meant "anecdotal evidence," meaning undocumented or uncited information. I have made an entry at Talk:UCLA Taser incident regarding your edit of that article. Flatscan 02:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • My main concerns are that this section imperfectly duplicates information available at UCLA Taser incident. Since this is in the section about controversies involving electroshock devices, expanded exposition is fine, but it should be consistent with the other article. Flatscan 02:23, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't notable enough to be in this article. Just include a link in the See also section. — Omegatron 02:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. There is already a link to UCLA Taser incident in the See also. In addition, I think the external link to the Daily Bruin article should be removed due to potential POV issues that are balanced when read in the other article. Flatscan 01:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Incapacitation, re: Drive Stun

The drive stun mode supposedly causes a great deal of pain. I don't think it's OR to say that a great deal of pain can be incapicitating. TheDeadlyShoe 00:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that that claim should be added uncited, considering POV issues that have come up in discussion of the UCLA Taser incident. In the context of Electroshock guns, "incapacitation" tends to be grouped with "disruption of motor function" and "paralyzation", when the subject cannot control his/her muscles. Describing "drive stun" as "incapacitating" without qualification may mislead the reader into believing that "drive stun" effectively disrupts motor function - which it does not. For a related discussion, please see the relevant section of Talk:UCLA Taser incident. Flatscan 05:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Normally, I think WP:IAR lets you add something to an article without necessarily needing a citation, but in this case, we have a citation stating that Drive Stun does not incapacitate. In my opinion, that has upped the ante, and any claims to the contrary should offer up their own citations for support. The reason the LVPD states that the TASER does not incapacitate is not meant to be propaganda, but rather, a warning to their own officers: don't use drive-stun mode on someone and think it's going to remove their ability to fight you. They may stop wanting to fight you (that's the plan), but they have not been physically incapacitated. Kind of like getting knocked off your feet -- you might lay there for a little longer than is necessary, not because you've sustained a real physical injury, but just because you're afraid to move, thinking you might be injured. I can certainly see a case for stating that someone who has been zapped might not want to move for a period of time, but physically, there's nothing stopping them, according to the sources we've seen so far.--TheCynic 20:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New civilian Taser model demonstrated at CES

CNBC had a segment on the new model during its On the Money show. Like earlier models, it operates at 50KV, has both projectile and "drive stun" modes, and sprays ID micro-tags when fired. It is shaped more like a TV remote than a handgun. Its MSRP is $299 and it will be available in a variety of colors. Flatscan 02:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oregon Father Accused of Using Stun Gun on Infant Son

ALBANY, Ore. — An Albany father has been arrested on suspicion of using a stun gun on his 18-month-old son. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250519,00.html Crocoite 20:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link. Just for the record, I don't think it's appropriate for the Controversies section in the current article. It could become relevant if there's a push to restrict their legality in response to this incident. Flatscan 03:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Revising the lead

I am rewriting the lead to more evenly cover the different types of weapons (projectile versus contact). I think it's confusing to have stun guns mixed in with the projectile weapons. Flatscan 02:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Risky to a minority": deletion of 7 Feb 2007

  • Re this deletion:-
It is possible that tasers, or any other high voltage device could cause cardiac arrhythmic disorders in a susceptible minority of people, possibly leading to heart attack or death in minutes by ventricular fibrillation (which leads to cardiac arrest and if not treated immediately to sudden death). People susceptible to this outcome are very often unaware of their susceptibility and are not rarely young, healthy and strong.
In current electroshock weapon models, the current is relatively low (2.1 mA to 3.6 mA) which is based in part on the electrical supply, (for example M-26 Taser models use eight AA batteries). Electrical current above 10 mA is considered to be potentially lethal to humans.

This sounds like a serious medical risk. Can we discuss this deletion please? Anthony Appleyard 07:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for starting the topic here. I disagree with your moving the 2 paragraphs in question, but I will not revert until there has been some discussion. The second paragraph should be returned to its original location. I think that the first paragraph should be deleted if no citations can be found. My thoughts on the first paragraph:

  • Originally added on 8 Jan 2007 by 84.90.18.136 (diff). Soon after, I {{fact}} tagged it with the edit summary add {{fact}} to new material; wording and placement is somewhat POV.
  • I've read that there are 3 suggested chronic causes of increased susceptibility to electric shock: pacemakers, heart disorders, and nervous system disorders. If I remember correctly (the Lancet article from 2001 is no longer available in full online), a study on pigs demonstrated that ventricular fibrillation could be more readily induced on a heart with a pacemaker. I have read no specific evidence of a relationship for either of the 2 types of disorders. I don't know much about the disorders, but what I've read suggests that they are hereditary and/or have clear symptoms. Therefore, anyone with the 3 causes would be aware of their possible increased susceptibility - the last sentence should be deleted.
No, they wouldn't necessarily be aware. They might be uneducated, or underage, or mentally incapable; they might not even know that their parents have the condition if it is hereditary and hasn't clearly shown up in their parents yet. greenrd 13:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Point taken. Would you support revising the sentence? People susceptible to this outcome are very often sometimes healthy and unaware of their susceptibility and are not rarely young, healthy and strong. Making judgments on the relative likelihood ("very often", "not rarely") is OR and can be POV. Of course, I would prefer a citation if one can be found. Flatscan 18:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I support your proposed revision. greenrd 20:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding the nervous system disorders, someone described a family condition where electric shock triggers seizures. Does anyone know what this condition is called? This is definitely relevant if we can find details.
I've read that those suffering from neuralgia may have increased sensitivity to electric shock. Reading the Wikipedia article, it seems plausible that pain sensation may be increased, but it seems unlikely that the likelihood of seizures or cardiac stimulation would be affected. Flatscan 00:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Flatscan 03:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[5] maybe this article can point to some research, i don't know how to find those reasearch papers... :Leuk he 14:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the link, I finally looked at it. One of the comments includes a list of scientific papers, including one (Nanthakumar, et al.) that I found previously. I'd like to note that the blog post and its comments have POV issues. Flatscan 04:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Principles of Operation Need More Explanation

The principles of Operation state that ” electroshock weapon technology uses a temporary high-voltage low-current electrical discharge to override the body's superficial muscle-triggering mechanisms”. This seems to imply that voltage and current are independent variables.

Yet Ohm’s Law makes current and voltage dependent variables (I (current) = V (voltage) / R (resistance). Once R and V are established, the current is what it is.

Wikipedia’s article on electric shock states that the human body has resistance of 10,000 ohms (dry) and 1,000 ohms (wet).

If we combine this information with the typical currents and voltages in the article, the information doesn’t make sense. The article says that ”current electroshock weapon models” produce current of 2.1 to 3.6 mA (let’s say 3 on average), and “the most common” put out 200 to 300 kV. But to push 3 mA through a dry body, we need only 3mA x 10 kOhm = 30 Volts. If you apply 300kV to a dry body, you get 30 amps and the person being subdued presumably becomes a crispy critter.

A possible explanation might be that electroshock weapons only achieve voltages like 200-300 kV across open circuits, and that when applied, they act like a capacitive discharge or a circuit with a large output impedance, in which case the voltage drops more or less instantaneously, like air going out of a balloon. However, given the wide range of resistance of the human body, it is difficult even then to see how the amperage might be predicted. Also, if the voltage drops off, then why is the effect on the subject so dependent on the time that the weapon is applied?

I wonder if someone might shed some light on this aspect of the article, and possibly update the article to clarify how these devices work. Ranger147147 17:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're on the right track with your last paragraph -- as far as I've read in this Wikipedia article and elsewhere, electroshock weapons use capacitors to store charge at high potential. The electroshock weapons pulse at a rate of several times per second. I'm not sure if this is the precise calculation, but a plausible calculation would be (charge stored in capacitor) x (pulses per second).
A possible complication is the mixing of information regarding Tasers (electrodes pierce the skin) and stun guns (electrodes pressed to skin surface). Flatscan 03:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits by User:Sarahfriedman

This is a list of my concerns, including some minor ones. I'm interested in comments from other editors who have working on this page in the past.

  • The diff [6] contains some editing that doesn't seem to be supported by the added references. The pre-existing ref [7] is no longer accessible (IIRC, I noticed that it had been removed a few weeks or more ago), so a review of it could not have been the source of the changes. Updating 73 to 243 is misleading as the more detailed accounting (8/7, 18/16) applies to the 73 only.
  • I feel that reorganization which moves Controversies to the second section has a POV effect. I do agree that Principles of operation should go first, although it needs a paragraph expanding on the difference between projectile and contact weapons.
  • Clear POV source: http://tampabay.injuryboard.com/defective-products/another-taser-death-in-clearwater.php I have concerns about some of the other sources added, but they are not individually unacceptable.
  • Many changes in 1 edit make it more difficult to isolate and evaluate changes.
  • Ref style inconsistent with existing is easy to fix, but shouldn't be necessary.

Flatscan 02:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your assistance. I'll try to work on the other issues. Flatscan 20:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Mortality

A stun gun is, in a way, a defibrillator. One of the main causes of death, speaking from a medical standpoint, would be something called the "R-on-T phenomenon." Basically, if the heart is electrically stimulated before it's chemically ready (during the T wave--the relative refractory period), the heart can be thrown into a deadly arrhythmia. This will only occur in ideal circumstances since the impedance of the thoracic cavity is fairly large.

For anyone looking for citations regarding how lethal stun guns and other electroshock weapons are, I'd suggesting finding a decent article on the R-on-T phenomenon.

--Kevin Morenski 15:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This guy has no idea what he is talking about. Stun Guns and Taser's work in the Milliamp range and produce less than 1.7 joules of energy. An electronic defibrulator starts at 150 joules and go as high as 400. That means Stun Guns and Taser's at a minimum are 1/100th the power of these "Heart Starting Devices". Also, pacemakers are designed to withstand the punch of these defibrulators therefore they are not affected by stun guns or Taser's. Get you facts straight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.253.2.122 (talk) 00:22, December 1, 2007 (UTC)

Length of controversy section

The Controversy section is, in my opinion, excessively long for the article. I suggest that it is split and placed in a new article titled, say, "Electroshock Weapon Controversy", and a brief paragraph is all that is left, along with a link, in this article. Any comments? --Lan56 08:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Possible irrelevant information in 'Principles of Operation' paragraph.

Principles of operation

  • Electroshock weapon technology uses a temporary high-voltage low-current electrical discharge to override the body's muscle-triggering mechanisms. The recipient feels great pain, and can be momentarily paralyzed while an electric current is being applied. It is reported that applying electroshock devices to more sensitive parts of the body (such as the testicles and nipples) is more painful. The relatively low electric current must be pushed by high voltage to overcome the electrical resistance of the human body. The resulting 'shock' is caused by muscles twitching uncontrollably, appearing as muscle spasms. However, because the amount of current is relatively low, there is considered to be a 'margin' of safety by a number of medical experts. Experts generally agree that this margin is highly dependent on the overall health of the person subjected to the shock. Usually, the higher the voltage, the more effective it is. It may take several seconds to subdue a subject with 100 kV, but only about a second with 1 MV (1,000 kV).

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.155.120.213 (talk) 03:19, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

I support deleting that sentence. Even if a source is found, it should be moved elsewhere, as targeting those sensitive areas does not fall under recommended usage. It was originally added during a series of edits by Ixfd64. Flatscan 19:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Accidental Deaths

Have there been any accidental deaths? How Many etc? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.144.172 (talk) 19:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There was one at Vancouver Airport recently (on youtube). I don't have details but I think it deserves a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.230.156.153 (talk) 04:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article exists: Robert Dziekański Taser incident‎. Information on deaths should generally go in the Electroshock weapon controversy article. Flatscan (talk) 05:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In Canada there have been SO MANY 'ACCIDENTAL' DEATHS BY TASER (almost 20 since 2003) that CBC has an interactive map on the subject. Just today was ANOTHER ONE in Nova Scotia. Has anyone traced the origin of that crazy made-up term 'Excited Delirium'? Did that come straight from the Taser Inc. legal department (I'm just asking)? It is a legal maxim that you take your victims as you find them. If someone is slightly susceptible to being shocked, it is still wrongful death (maybe manslaughter). It is ALL OVER THE NEWS in Canada. The CBC News website is very slow, maybe a DOS attack from someone (just a guess, no idea who). And Taser Inc is busy launching lawsuits and legal maneuvers against anyone asking hard questions. At the same time they're fighting 39 lawsuits themselves. What a mess. 216.198.139.38 (talk) 05:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's an article on excited delirium with links to some interesting sources. bobanny (talk) 05:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fully comprehensive and independent reference

The British government ordered a complete review of all aspects of TASER technology that was entirely independent of any manufacturers or interested parties. This encompassed the science of the technology,history of use, operational parameters, compatibility with medical and aircraft tehnology and the most comprehensive independent medical data ever produced on the subject. The three resulting publications answer virtually every question raised in this editing talk and as such I feel they should be included as external references in the article. Many of the external references already included are far more biased, less knowledgable and, in some cases, reference the source material I am proposing.

The links to the reports are as follows: "PSDB Evaluation of Taser Devices"; http://scienceandresearch.homeoffice.gov.uk/hosdb/publications/police-weaponry/09-02-Evaluation-Taser1.pdf?view=Binary "PSDB Further Evaluation of Taser Devices"; http://ecow.engr.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/getbig/bme/762/webster/hw1-25-07/wilkinson.pdf "Supplement to HOSDB Evaluations of Taser Devices" http://scienceandresearch.homeoffice.gov.uk/hosdb/publications/police-weaponry/64-06_-_Supplement_to_HOSDB2.pdf?view=Binary —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.144.53 (talk) 20:44, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Medical Case Report on a Taser injury

There is a recent article in the Annals of Emergency Medicine which describes a police offcer who suffered spine fractures during a taser demonstration.

http://www.annemergmed.com/article/PIIS019606440700724X/abstract —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.11.111.146 (talk) 08:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Taser Resistant Sweatshirt

  • A while ago I read about a sweatshirt that is resistant or nullifies the effects of a taser through I'm guessing grounding. I can't find anything on the net about this now. Any leads would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.135.71.190 (talk) 05:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Probably just thick enough that the electrodes can't penetrate it. Prodego talk 02:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Taser: Reduces Lethal Force in Phoenix

"The Phoenix Police Department reported that officer shootings had dropped as a result from the use of TASER technology as an alternative to deadly force. Uses of a TASER device in this department increased from 71 in the year 2002 to 164 in the year 2003. Additionally, the number of officer-involved shootings decreased by 7 during this time period."

There are many problems with this statement:

  • It doesn't appear to be cited.
  • The argument is that the decrease of 7 is significant: We don't know how many officer-involved shootings there were over all, or previous years records, to even begin to work out if this is a significant result.
  • Obviously such research would be 'original research' so shouldn't be in the article, hence maybe this whole paragraph should be removed.
  • Or alternatively, it could be argued that tasers are being used in cases where guns wouldn't have been. Ie if tasers were used in 93 more cases, then there should be 93 fewer shootings, but there were only 7 fewer. (still primary research though)

Hence I vote to remove or cite properly this paragraph. Lionfish0 10:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This old version has a ref to [8], which is now dead. This is a possible starting point to finding a working ref. Flatscan 04:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Depiction in fiction

In their most general incarnation, these devices are sometimes depicted as tools of oppression in works of fiction, especially in dystopic visions of the future. Examples include: The Road Not Taken (Stargate_SG-1).

Maybe someone can flesh this list out a bit and add it to the article. --Lionelbrits 19:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.146.149 (talk • contribs) 12:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Defenses ?

I suggest adding a section: What are the best defenses, if any, against being tasered? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.167.166.6 (talk) 10:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about comply with the cops when they give you an order and don't do anything illegal?

Scott 110 01:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are clearly a troll, what kind of answer is that? don't feed this "Scott" please. --Lo'oris (talk) 20:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Some pigs give bogus/illegal "orders". Then hurt you in your own house when you didn't do anything...they are the ones that need a Tasering....I'm taking Karate, Myself68.231.189.108 (talk) 15:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

small>Scott's advise is not all that bad and while not to your liking I have to e. You migh reconsider who is the troll here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.81.213 (talk) 16:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not all that Good, either. Pretty Lame..I'm sure the asker was either just curious or about, say, in a protest situation where people are exercising their right of free speech and pigs try to round Everybody up. There Must be an intelligent answer to this--muscle de-relaxants; some yoga or deep breathing exercise; some way to physically/mentally/spiritually be more resistant. I've heard being wiped on crack or Meth makes one much harder to put down on a Taser; so there Must be a more positive way of doing it. 68.231.189.108 (talk) 15:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC).[reply]

It's not an advice, it's just a random attack. Since you're defending him, either you're too stupid to understand, or you're a troll too, so it's pretty pointless to explain you why. And you are anonymous, so it's even more pointless. Just STFU next time,k? ;) --Lo'oris (talk) 22:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

electroshock weapon meant to kill?

This page seems to talk about nothing but weapons meant to stun people as a defensive weapon. Isn't there an offensive or military electroshock weapon meant to shock or barbeque a person to death or turn them to ash? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.127.207.170 (talk) 12:27, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. The available energy density from practical electrical power sources is very inferior to the energy density available from conventional propellants. Consequently electrically powered weapons are considered only when they have special properties that outweigh their otherwise severe disadvantages. There are only three cases I am aware of where this is (potentially) the case: a) direct, controllable stimulation of the nervous system to produce muscular spasms or pain, using power levels much lower than those required to do damage (i.e., what this page is about); b) directed energy weapons for engagement of hyper-speed targets, where the speed-of-light propagation of the energy beam greatly improves the odds of scoring a hit (BUT the energy density problem is such that none have been fielded yet and the only ones close to being fielded are chemically powered, not electrical); and c) lethal voltage electric fences (because they are static fixtures, so the power supply problem is greatly lessened.) Even lethal voltage electric fences do not generate anything like enough power to "barbeque a person to death or turn them to ash." They cause respiratory arrest by, once again, interfering with the nervous system. -- Securiger (talk) 23:27, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article scope: Prototypes

I think we should consider removing the Electroshock weapon#Prototype designs section. Their designs and functions are quite different from the handheld, portable commercial products. Electrified water cannon is an abandoned prototype, possibly not notable. Electrolaser delivers electric charge, but seems to be better classified as a directed-energy weapon. Flatscan (talk) 17:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the section could do with some cleanup, particularly as it contains a lot of speculation, and nowhere notes that research stalled several years ago. However I would be loathe to see removal of a link to the electrified water cannon article. This concept is still widely cited on many antiestablishment web sites as being an actual weapon, generally with ludicrously exaggerated properties. As Jaycor's page is now available only via archive sites, our article is now the main available source of balanced information about this myth. -- Securiger (talk) 03:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image of stun baton

Current in amps sent through the body

But that is only true for continuous current. All practical electroshock weapons used a pulsed current, which deliver multiple amperes, but only for a few milliseconds, with a long gap before the next pulse; it is only the average that is ~1 mA. The effectiveness of such pulses is usually described by the total energy delivered per pulse, measured in joules. However, Taser International claims that even that is not really a good measure, and that effectiveness depends on precise pulse timing and pulse shaping, which tune which biological system is activated by the energy, and so affect the ability to paralyse muscles with minimal power and minimal pain. -- Securiger (talk) 01:41, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think this should be put in the main article to deflect the multiple attacks on Ohm's law 93.97.25.170 (talk) 01:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Legality in State

Someone who knows should add a section in what states it's legal for private citizens to own a stun gun or carry concealed 63.26.192.143 (talk) 20:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)eric[reply]

New article for XREP

I've found a large amount of detailed and encyclopedic information about TASER's XREP shotgun electroshock system.

Could I create new article for that and link forward to it under the XREP#Wireless_long-range_electric_shock_weapon heading, using "Main article: TASER XREP"?

I think it would be great since this is an important innovation in an otherwise quite stagnant field. I would be elaborating on the technical functioning of the device, yet keeping it easy enough for people with little or no understanding of electronics. -- Tomjenkins52 (talk) 17:14, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds interesting. What kind of sources do you have beyond Taser documentation? I suggest starting it as a user subpage, e.g. User:Tomjenkins52/XREP. Flatscan (talk) 04:26, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some websites that explain its operation and features in detail. Don't want to quote links, though I will certainly be heavily rewriting it, especially since it must be easy to understand by anybody, not just electronic engineers! (As my source is quite technical)
And can I be WP:BOLD and create a new article?! I've done many new articles as you can see on my userpage, and nobody's ever objected, so wouldn't it be harmless even if I add it straight into the main namespace? Thanks. -- Tomjenkins52 (talk) 08:01, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My main concern is that a separate article may not have sufficient WP:Notability to stand on its own. I've seen XREP on Heroes, but I haven't read any articles that indicate that they're in widespread use. If you're confident, go ahead in article space – user space was just a suggestion. Flatscan (talk) 04:40, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your suggestions and understanding. I really believe that new articles can (and should!) be created by anybody who is interested in documenting something previously considered unimportant. Who knows, someday it might become an important issue and then Wikipedia would have nothing much to add to the subject! Cheers! I'll begin as soon as I get some time. Thanks again. -- Tomjenkins52 (talk) 13:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Electroshock_weapon&oldid=351371870"