Talk:Genocides in history

Needs citations

This article lacks many citations. For instance, there is an unsupported claim that Teddy Roosevelt supported mass genocide of native americans. This is a bold claim and also potentially misplaced in the context of this article anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.104.65 (talk) 18:07, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

This article should also discuss the Genocide being conducted by the Indian Government since 1984 against Sikhs. Over 500,000 Sikhs have been exterminated by Law Enforcement Agencies at the Local, State and National Levels. Here are some Links:

http://www.khalistan.net/genocide.htm http://sikhsangat.org/tag/sikh-genocide/ http://www.sikhsundesh.net/genocide.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.172.145.109 (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree. This article does lack citations and much of it is nonsense. For example the Ottoman Empire's alleged genocide of Armenians is hotly disputed and may not have been genocide. It certainly warrents further investigation. The so called Darfur genocide is unsupported by evidence and in fact there is evidence to the contrary. Examples of very bad sources include politicians, the mainstream media and the military. Good sources are peer reviewed academic papers but always check out who has funded the studies. The word 'genocide' is often used as a weapon by governments to batter and demonise rival governments in order to gain economic concessions or control of resources. Sudan has oil (hence Darfur and the genocide accusations). There is real genocide in the Congo but few people know because there is no oil there. Shieldsgeordie (talk) 13:14, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Americas

Main article: Population history of American indigenous peoples From the 1490s when Christopher Columbus set foot on the Americas to the 1890 massacre of Sioux at Wounded Knee by the United States militia

"militia" should be amended to "military" if this refers to Custer's 7th cavalry

Ibos genocide in Nigeria during the Biafran War

Is there any reason why the genocide of the Ibos in Nigeria 1967-70 is not included here? Epa101 (talk) 13:03, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

No response for a month. I've added it in with a reference from the Encyclopeia of Genocide. Epa101 (talk) 16:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I have removed it there was no specific claim that it was a genocide. That many died is not an issue, that there was a policy of starving the Ibos's into submission is not an issue, what is an issue is that the Nigerian government intended to destroy the Ibos if that was the intention then then when the secessionists threw in the towel the killing would have continued (same argument as the area bombing in World War II was not part of a genocide against the German people). To include it here you need a reliable source that specifically claims it was a genocide. The most likely genocide scholar to have made this claim it indeed if was a genocide is Leo Kuper who investigated and wrote about genocides in Africa. -- PBS (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Irish Famine

Another view of the Irish Potato Famine is that its reputation as genocide was due to a political movement internal to the US. Franklin Foer argued in Slate in 1997 that New York Governor George Pataki wanted high school students to study the famine only in response to a 1994 act that mandated students study the Holocaust. He got the mandate broadened to cover "the mass starvation of the Irish between 1845 and 1850." Anecdotal evidence would suggest his attempt had some support initially but has since largely fallen from favour. 86.159.70.117 (talk) 20:59, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it should be on here. I don't see how it's different from the famines in India that the British Empire ignored. Famine is a different issue from genocide, and there are articles for famines in history already. Epa101 (talk) 16:40, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

It is nothing to do with our own opinions. If some reliable source (but preferably sources) alleged a genocide then we include it. If not we do not. Personally as the term is used as a polemic in political discourse, we should consider only including genocides noted as such by official international bodies or committees under their auspices, domestic courts, or genocides recognised as such by a number of the better known genocide scholars. -- PBS (talk) 21:21, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that showing intent is the key problem here. In both India and Ireland the crops were taken and sold for profit and greed leaving the indiginous populations to starve. Was the intent just greed and starvation a side effect or was the intent to kill too. I don't know the answer as I haven't studied these topics. I think probably greed was the motivation but that's just an opinion. That would still make it a crime but it would just mean that the powerfully emotive and much abused word 'genocide' that governments and the mainstream media use for propaganda purposes couldn't be used. Shieldsgeordie (talk) 13:42, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Irish genocides

Why is their no mention of the elizabethan genocide in ireland when the english slaughtered over 1.5 million irish civilians —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.150.176 (talk) 23:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources that it was a genocide? -- PBS (talk) 21:23, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

In nearly every case where accusations of genocide have circulated, partisans of various sides have fiercely disputed the interpretation and details of the event

I believe this statement is quite far from neutrality because it a priori characterize proponents of genocide theories as mainstream scholars and their opponents as revisionists.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:23, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree but I'm not surprised as this is wikipedia but that's not to say there aren't good wikipedia pages. I would advise people to research genocides from proper fully referenced independent academic sources and treat controversial pages on wikipedia as just the opinions of the those who edit the page. I would go on to say that some of this genocide page is political propaganda (not by the editors necessarily who may have been misled by it) and often based on the flimsiest of evidence much of which has been debunked by scholars. It's sometimes more an article of opinions than evidence and there are glaring omissions and one sided citations. The Irish potato famine is discussed but the British East India company had a similar policy in India which caused millions to die of starvation. Tibet: The entries are good ones but Tibet is a political football. The Dalai Lama dropped the accusations of physical genocide a long time ago and now only refers to cultural genocide. See Professor Sautman's fully referenced research which uses the Tibetan government's own figures to debunk the genocide claims both cultural and physical. Sautman, Barry (2006) 'Colonialism, genocide, and Tibet', Asian Ethnicity, 7:3, 243 — 265. No mention of the US killings in Vietnam either I see. I could go on and on but I said it all in my first two sentences really. Shieldsgeordie (talk) 10:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Dispute at article War in the Vendee - comments, participation needed

There is a dispute at the article War in the Vendee over the statement in the lede regarding the academic status of the claim that the war concluded in a genocide. One editor there has been insisting upon language in the lede that "only one reputable scholar of the period" considers it genocide. I believe this is both false and misleading as scores, if not hundreds, of notable scholars, many specialists in the study of genocide, have deemed it genocide. The latest contribution has removed the term "only one", but I believe it is still false and misleading: "One notable scholar considers the killing of hundreds of thousands of Vendeans by the French state an example of "ideological genocide", or "populcide" - a charge rejected by every other reputable scholar on the period." The sentence which I had proposed for the lead is: "Some scholars considers the killing of hundreds of thousands of Vendeans by the French state an example of genocide, a charge which many contest." I noted to the disputing editor that Jonassohn, Chaunu, Secher, Mark Levene, Tulard, Adam Jones and Joes (all cited in the article), just to name a few, consider it genocide, but I can get no compromise from this editor. Any comments or participation to help resolve this dispute, from whatever perspective, would be appreciated. Mamalujo (talk) 19:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I don't know anything about the war in the Vendee but if its any help its not the number of academics holding particular opinions that count it's the evidence. It's best to get a hold of the the most up to date research (literature reviews are particularly useful) and cite those articles. There are many cases in which a majority hold one opinion and new research sheds new light on a situation which changes the prevailing viewpoints over time (sometimes a very long time). People are stubborn and don't like to admit they were wrong. I'm never wrong ha ha. Seriously though you are right that it's a weak argument to state: "only one reputable scholar of the period considers it genocide". It is better to state why scholars have opposing points of view and tackle the issues with evidence if it exists. But be just as prepared to accept evidence against your point of view as in favour. I hate evidence that shows I'm wrong :( (joking). Shieldsgeordie (talk) 14:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

hmong genocide in laos

hmong people are exterminated by the communist laos and vietnam today since the end of vietnam war. the hmong fought ho chi minh with the french then the us thats why they are all killed. is there an article about that ? Cliché Online (talk) 23:45, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Where are the Nanking massacres?