Talk:Altaic languages

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peoples

Since there is no such thing as an "Altaic people", I merged that article here. Cleaned it up a bit, but it needs more. kwami (talk) 00:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Micro-Altaic is dead (or at least in hibernation)

I am editing the intro section to bring it in line with the current views of Altaicists, as opposed to those they held fifty years ago. The relevant considerations are enunciated by Stefan Georg and his collaborators in their 1999 article[1] (see especially pages 73-74). This is a particularly important article in that Georg is a major opponent of the Altaic hypothesis, whereas his co-authors (Manaster Ramer, Michalove, Sidwell) are major supporters of it. It can thus be taken as representing a responsible consensus. I quote this passage in full to avert any suspicion I am editing the text:

Equally misleading to the non-specialist is the claim (e.g. Comrie 1992, Lyovin 1997) that the traditional Altaic theory connects only the western languages (Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic), and that some combination of Korean, Japanese and Ainu has been marginally associated with the western languages by some scholars. In fact, the status of Korean, Japanese and Ainu differs greatly in Altaic studies. While it is true that the oldest literature on Altaic dealt only with Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic, the fact is that Korean has been an integral part of the Altaic theory for most of the postwar period. Indeed, practically all scholars who have accepted the relationship among the Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic languages since Poppe (1960) have also included Korean in their definition of Altaic (although in practice many Altaicists have not worked with Korean in any depth until recently). On the other hand, the relationship with Japanese was worked out more recently and still, while accepted by many Altaic scholars (such as Miller, Starostin and Vovin) to be Altaic, is not granted by others (e.g. Tekin and Baskakov).

Elsewhere, the authors emphasize that the Altaic hypothesis today concerns "the Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Korean and, in most recent versions, Japanese languages".[2]

Another point: I have used the term "anti-Altaicist" here rather freely. My justification for this is that Stefan Georg likes the term, as you can see from his comment on this talk page above, under "Anti" (last comment in the section).

It is important that both Altaicists and anti-Altaicists feel that their positions are correctly represented, as well as neutrals. This has been my aim in re-writing this section. Regards to all. VikSol 11:07, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I took Ainu out of the info box.

The lang fam nav box (at the btm of the page) used to have turk / mong / tung listed separately. We could choose either that or Altaic, as we have now, but there's a third choice: list the individual families (as we do now for japonic) and add Altaic as a 'perhaps also', like Tyrsenian. What'd'ya think? kwami (talk) 11:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, I find the language families template to be a space hog. I think the default should be switched back to "hide" rather than "show", so people can open it up if they want to explore the information it contains, but otherwise be left to concentrate on whatever they're looking into. This said, it is an eye-opener, since it squeezes into a very small space information that is usually too spread out to take in at a glance.

My personal views aside, I don't think there is enough of a consensus at the present time either for or against the Altaic family to either accept or reject it. The problem is to translate this fact into a tabular medium.

I like listing T M MT separately, with "perhaps Altaic" added at the end of the section, providing a convenient link.

By the way, Korean needs to be added to the Eurasian languages. Also, what about Nivkh? I can think of a few other suggestions. Regards, VikSol 13:59, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Language isolates have been left out. They'd double the size of the template. Unless you think Nivkh should be considered a small family? kwami (talk) 19:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Taxonomically, it makes no difference whether a language family is represented by one language or many. E.g. the Eskimo-Aleut family is composed of two branches, the Eskimo family and the single Aleut language, but each is an equal branch. Likewise, Eskimo is subdivided into the Yupik language family and the single Inuit language, but Yupik and Inuit have equal status. VikSol 21:46, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Sure, but it's impractical to double the template, and it's also impractical in many cases to distinguish isolates from unclassified languages. Besides, we'd get into arguments with people who don't understand the concept of a family of one. kwami (talk) 10:48, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I have a copy of Georg's article. It is very good. But I'm confused by your talk section title "Micro-Altaic is dead" considering that I read nothing in the Georg article that could be construed as implying that "Micro-Altaic is dead". --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 20:33, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Georg and his co-authors state that nearly everybody who believes in Altaic today assigns Korean to it, which suffices to make it Macro-Altaic, and most of them even include Japanese. On page 75, first paragraph: "practically all scholars who have accepted the relationship among the Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic languages since Poppe (1960) have also included Korean in their definition of Altaic". Anti-Altaicists by definition don't believe in Altaic at all. Skeptics do not support either Micro-Altaic or Macro-Altaic; they simply think the arguments for and against Altaic are about equally strong. This leaves nobody who supports Micro-Altaic. In this sense Micro-Altaic is dead. This doesn't mean that Altaicists reject kinship between Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic; it simply means they extend this grouping to Korean and, usually, Japanese (I wish they would start to say Japonic). VikSol 21:46, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That clarifies it better. It didn't seem clear from the first quote. I like that you're updating the article using the information from Georg. It seemed like there was the answers to a number of questions raised in past talk entries sitting right there... --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 17:12, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Turkic is an iranian-turkic creole language and oghuz turkic is an iranized turkico-iranian.

Turkic is an iranian-turkic creole language and oghuz turkic is an iranized turkico-iranian.

In the site nostratica.ru

http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(250)Clauson_against.pdf

http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(206)Greenberg%20-%20Altaic%20Exists.pdf

http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(203)Nostratic%20and%20altaic.pdf

http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(251)Vovin%20Controversy.pdf

they give iranian etymologies to turkic numbers. gi=>eki tse=>uthse tshorts=>tört pandj=>bish atshish=>alti and so on

Non oghuz turkic languages have rather an irano-altaic conjugation endings. kor-gen-men=see-past suffixe-first person(likely borrowed from iranic)ending.

But in oghuz turkic it became gor-d-um=see-iranian past suffixe d-iranian first person ending.

if you look to these maps below,you could easily see that central asia was inhabitated by iranian speaking populations(saka,chorasmians,dahae,margians,bactrians,soghds..)and of course these tribes did not disappear but merged with turkic newcomers as proven by genetic tests and also by the presence of a caucasoid phenotype and caucasoid phenotype influences amongst central asian turks.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/East-Hem_323bc.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/East-Hem_200bc.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/East-Hem_600ad.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/East-Hem_700ad.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/East-Hem_800ad.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/East-Hem_900ad.jpg

john L.Drake —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.188.81.84 (talk) 17:19, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

There's been a lot of mutual influence between Turkic and Iranian. But AFAIK Oghuz has never been claimed to be a creole; in most respects, it is clearly Turkic. kwami (talk) 19:47, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. There's plenty of influence, but the Oghuz languages are clearly Turkic. (Taivo (talk) 19:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC))

I have for a long time asked my self, how correct is really this altaic language group that is mostly hypotatical and that the altaic language group is including the turkic language group. I am looking at some facts; the geograpgy the turkic peoples live today is the same geography the scythian peoples lived. The scythian language was an iranian language. Since it was covering such a large place it is very open for influences from others, which make them change more than the southern iranians, the parthians. The area that is called central asia today was called Turan by the Persian long time ago and this is where the Turks/Turkics get their name from. The Turanian ideology that was created in the beginning of the 20th century was going a little too far by trying to include the Uralic and the Darian groups as well. And now this Altaic theory that doesn't convince me when I compare grammar or vocabulary from the different languages that it is supposed to group together. I think the correct way to look and the correct hypotetis to trying out is this; the Turkic or it could be renamed to the Turanian language group should be part of the Indo-European language group, with Turkish, Azerbaijani, Turkmenish, Uzbeki, Kirghizi and Kazakhistani as undergroups. I think the Turkic/Turani is closer to IE than belonging together with Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Uralic or Darian. The Turkic/Turani language group is closer to Iranian than any of the others mentioned above. BUt since it has been open for influence and change for such a long time, it could be included in IE as a own group instead of becoming an undergroup of the Indo-Iranian. Conclusion; the Turkic should not be part of Altaic, but of instead become part of Indo-European as Turkic or Turanian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.102.227.95 (talk) 23:47, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Just one minor note, please "AVOID" using any term that sounds, smells, or looks like the non-existence term "Turani language". Xashaiar (talk) 01:26, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Chinese is sino-tibetan not altaic.

Of course kipchak Turkic and at a lesser extent oghuz turkic are agglutinative altaic languages(with mongolic and tunguzic)but with a strong iranic superstratum(or substratum)especially for oghuz turkic.

Kipchak turkic for "I see" is körgenmen(kör+gen+men)with kör=see,gen=past suffixe,men=I. But oghuz turkic for "I see" is gördüm(gör+d+üm) with:

gör=see

d=past suffixe(along with "t" due to consonant harmony rule)=same as with persian which have either "d" or "t" as past suffixe

üm=1.person ending(along with "im,ım" due to the vowel harmony rule)=same with persian which have "aem" as 1.person ending.

also pir/bir 1 could be connected with indo-european per meaning lone as in english first.

sekiz could have be connected to hekiz>hekt indoeuropean 8.

Perhaps original Turkic numbers are the ones that express decades nowadays.

1=on 2=yirm 3=ot 4=kirk 5=el(one hand or 5 fingers) 6=alt(under) 7=yet(indo-european/indo-iranian borrowing) 8=hek(indo-european/indo-iranian borrowing) 9=tok 10=yiz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.188.65.151 (talk) 11:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Japonic languages

This article claims that Altaic language family includes Japonic languages. While this is one theory, the Japonic language family generally considered a language isolate. On the wikipedia page for Japonic languages, for example, it is identified as an isolate rather than a member of the Altaic family. While the article does use qualifying language, I don't think it's clear enough.