Talk:Scottish National Party

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scotland no pope

the billy connelly part seems to me to be the only part of this article that realy reflects what I here from western scottish people (the veiw on the ground as it were) I here alot of "snp stood for scotland no pope in the 70s" and things like that now the billy connely statment is not like that but it reflects the veiw I get from working class people more than any other part of the article and I was wondering if anyone has more information on how this party was realy seen back in the day infact it feels like this article is pretty lame considering this is the party currently in powere in scotland — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.226.0 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Ill look up the reference next time Im in James Thins but I was reading recently how in the 18th century, Catholics in Aberdeenshire were amongst the most andi unionist elements in Scotand. Unionists such as Donald Findlay have been accused of sectarian bigotry and the Protestants that march in Northern Ireland annually from the West Coast of Scotland are presumably 100% anti independance for Scotland. Seamusalba (talk) 15:33, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

What exactly does "snp stood for scotland no pope in the 70s" mean? I was a working man in the 70's and have no idea what you mean. Jack forbes (talk) 17:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

lol his post sounds like complete nonsnse. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank God. For a moment there I thought it was just me! Jack forbes (talk) 22:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the alleged phrase was actually "Soon No Pope" although from what I understand (and a quick Google supports) it was a term mainly used by Labour. I forget where I read it but there's some stuff out there about how the SNP used to poll significantly better in Protestant districts than in Catholic districts in areas where religion was still a factor in voting behaviour (one of the factors in recent years has been the party's improved performance amongst Catholic voters). However this phenomenon in Scottish voting long predates the SNP as a major force in Scottish politics and it may just be that Labour held onto the Catholic vote rather better than the Conservatives held onto the Protestant vote, thus giving the SNP more scope for advancement in the latter. Timrollpickering (talk) 19:48, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Bold text''Italic text

Electoral performance

The numbers for recent general elections appear to be nonsense, e.g. 17% in 2005, and do not match the numbers on the pages for the elections. Or am I misunderstanding something? KarlFrei (talk) 12:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

That figure is sadly accurate for the votes when only taking into account Scotland. Heres a good source for it [1]BritishWatcher (talk) 14:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Why sadly? Jack forbes (talk) 15:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Is 17.7% more than they should have got! ;) BritishWatcher (talk) 15:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

No, but it's far less than they have now. ;) Jack forbes (talk) 15:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

SNP

are they like the BNP or Neo Nazis? I always though when someone said "national party" it usually related to those "movements". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.91.184.5 (talk) 18:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

No the SNP are civic nationalists whereas the BNP are ethnic nationalist--Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 19:00, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

They are separatists but not right wing extremists like the BNP. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:47, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Unionism is no more or less a form of nationalism than Scottish nationalism, as it argues for an idea of nationhood based on a post 1707 interpretation of Britishness. The only difference is that it is the current orthodoxy. The SNP steers clear of ethnic arguments for separation just as the mainstream unionist parties steer clear of ethnic notions of britishness (otherwise theyd have to promote the use of Welsh in britain as the ethnic language seeing as thats where the ethnic idea was borrowd from : D) Seamusalba (talk) 15:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

User 97.91.184.5 is correct. The SNP most notably Alex Salmond constantly make racist anti-English remarks. Their (the SNP) whole pitch is sectarian based, they admit that, and it obviously couldn't be other than that. They want to separate from their fellow countrymen based only on a percieved ethnic basis. Barryob is completely wrong, the SNP are more racist than the BNP and I don't recognise this term 'civic nationalist'. BritishWatcher is also wrong. I see no reason for saying they can't be called right wing extremists. Seamusalba is also wrong. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 16:16, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Everyone is wrong but you, ok...--Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 17:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I would be grateful if people would note that this smacks of personal abuse. Let barrybob respond to my points not just try to treat me like a 'second class citizen' here. If other people can post a view on the wikipedia let him explain why he says *I* can't post a view.Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 17:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok where to being, sectarianism and racism are two seperate things one is based is a religious conflict the other on race neither apply to the SNP who appeal to many faiths and ethnic backrounds.--Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 17:56, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Re: "The SNP's nationalism is left-wing nationalism, not right wing, a trait which it shares with other Celtic Nationalist parties such as Plaid Cymru and Sinn Féin", I'm not sure why the SNP is compared with Sinn Féin and not the SDLP. In fact the SNP resembles the SDLP quite a lot, and SF very little.Crc (talk) 11:19, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Why are Billy Connolly's viewed as relevant? he has no discernable expertise or relevance to an SNP article

Should Billy Connolly be cited as a source of criticism over UK policy in Iraq or transport policy decisions in the West Midlands ie in what possible way is his opinion any more relevant than that of any critic of the SNP who also lacks expertise on the subject? His quote should be removed as irrelevant (otherwise any blogg online should be given equal weight as a serious analysis of the SNP and their attitudes to English people). Seamusalba (talk) 17:05, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think he's being cited as a source; rather, his criticism is being related in a source because he is notable. But I share your suspicions about the inclusion of this material. I don't care for "Criticism" sections is encyclopedia articles in general, but I can tolerate them in certain contexts. For instance, in this example, if an academic report came out showing that, say, the SNP's campaigns increased anglophobia, and this was widely publicised in mainstream media, yes, it's tolerably valid to put in an article. But I can't see a place for cheap partisan attacks by a known opponent of the movement, where it is impossible to verify the basis of the attacks on any good evidence. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thats my main point. just because Billy Connoly is famous and Scottish, doesnt make him an expert, and he has his own prejudices about the SNP from reading the BBC News article cited. (he seems to see Scottish government as inherently leading to a loss of interest in internationalism and oppenness) But even if there could be shown to be a rise in anti English sentiment under the present SNP minority government, how is it possible to demonstrate whether its down to having an SNP government, or by say, frustration at the reaction to it from the other parties? its a matter of interpretation unless concrete examples of anti English speeches or sentiment can be cited from the party. Otherwise Sean Connery could be quoted as a criticism of Connoly's criticism (if i can find a twitter by him about Billy Connoly and the Parliament!). Seamusalba (talk) 20:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Is the SNP REALLY a "a centre-left nationalist political party committed to Scottish Independence"?

Alex Salmond, the elected leader of the SNP and Queen Elizabeth's First Minister of her Scottish government, on 25th February 2010, presented a document, which is available on-line linked to here - Scotland’s Future: Draft Referendum (Scotland) Bill Consultation and which included this quote.

1.19. Her Majesty The Queen would remain as Head of State. The current parliamentary and political Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would become a monarchical and social Union – united kingdoms rather than a United Kingdom – maintaining a relationship forged in 1603 by the Union of the Crowns.

It seems to me this leadership of Mr Salmond raises a question and discussion point about the appropriate description of the "Scottish National Party" - and that "a centre-left nationalist political party committed to Scottish Independence" is, shall we say, generous.

The thing is monarchy is a right-wing idea. So a party with a pro-monarchist policy platform, it seems to me, needs to have its self-descriptions, where it describes itself as something other than a right-wing monarchist party taken with a pinch of salt, or something.

It seems to me there are two approaches to analysing this question.

Approach 1.

Assume that the self-description of the party, what the party says about itself in its party name, in its party constitution

- in the case of the SNP, (a) that the party is a Scottish Nationalist party (b) that it is left of centre, left-leaning and so on,

- in the case of the British Labour Party (a) that the party represents the interest of Labour, trade unions and the workers (b) it is a democratic socialist party

are fair; assume that those self-descriptions are true and correct.

In which case when the party leaders or documents lead in a pro-monarchist direction absolutely contradicting the core true values of the party, as they do, then those leaders do not speak for their parties, their leadership is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and ILLEGITIMATE as far as the party is concerned.

Approach 2.

Assume that when the party leaders and documents lead in a pro-monarchist direction that this direction is the true core value of the party. The party is in fact whatever the leader says it is.

In which case the party name, the party constitution and so on are meaningless. The SNP or Labour stand for whatever the leaders SAYS it stands for - and if the leader supports the right-wing idea of monarchy then the party is a right-wing monarchist party.

However mostly I don't think people DO analyse such contradictions in party leaders and party declared "principles". They just watch the story on TV then they watch the next story on TV. It all kind of washes over people.

Not only is monarchy right-wing it is also against national independence - since an independent nation elects its own head of state and is not TOLD who its head of state is.

Also in opposing the true independence of the Scottish nation, by going along with the subjugation and enslavement of the Scots to the imposed head of state, Queen Elizabeth, and that being very much against the interests of the nation, the SNP royalist leaders certainly and possibly also the party (depending on which of the two above analysis approaches one takes) ARE NOT THEREFORE "NATIONALISTS" BUT TRAITORS AGAINST THE NATION!

So what is the appropriate approach for Wikipedia I wonder? I just can't help getting the strong feeling that merely parroting the SNP's self-description is inadequate for wikipedia.

Peter Dow (talk) 02:09, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I was immediately concerned when I read this stuff about the SNP being "Centre-Left". Who decided this? What kind of left? The old one like Bevan or the modern one like Blair? The SNP is clearly authoritarian, and anti-democratic - look at the releasing of the Lockerbie bomber for example.

I was also concerned about the list on the right of the article page: "Ideology - Scottish independence, Scottish nationalism, Civic nationalism, Social democracy"

Why are they listed as both "Scottish nationalist" and "Civic nationalist". What is this special term granted to them but not to oter racist organisations? And who says they're "social democrats"? I certainly don't. They are obviously fascist and against democracy - see the carve-up of 'vote allocation' they support for example. Taking people's votes and deciding who will get them. Totally undemocratic. Also foreigners living in Scotland could vote on Scotland's future in the various votes that have been held but the English people could not. No democracy there. Instead of "Political position Centre-Left" I would put "political position: extremist racist and authoritarian undemocratic". Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 16:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

They are facist for letting a man dying of cancer out of jail major LOL --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 17:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Again I would like to draw people's attention to the way barrybob appears to have selected me for personal abuse. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 16:32, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

"English" SNP MSP's in "Accusations of Anglophobia"

With exception of Ian McKee, there is no support for the fact that any of the other MSPs mentioned consider themselves as "English". EU states including the UK, base their nationality laws on the principle of Jus Sanguinis (by right of blood), e.g. nationality is only automatic, if one of your parents has that nationality - in the UK that is the British Nationality Act 1981, where citizenship is issued if either parent is a British Citizen, or if the child is born on UK territory and one of the parents is entitled to become a UK citizen. The same should be applied to the constituent nations of the UK. Lest it would be possible to cite persons as being "Scottish" BUT NOT "British". Considering the lack of any legal possibility of this, this is a major mistake in the article.

The correct term (as someone who was born in England, lives in Scotland, and has a Scottish father, English mother and is a member of the Scottish National Party) is 'Anglo-Scottish' at a push.

Based on this assumption of 'birth as a ground for nationality' by the author, Scottish sportsmen, including historical figures such as the runner Eric Liddell, and more modern ones such as John Barclay and Graeme Morrisson (Scotland national rugby team players) would be Chinese. This is incorrect.

Article has been amended accordingly.

Recent edits by Penny

The additions by User:Pennypennypennypenny are not worthy of inclusion in the article they are nothing more than the sandard labour soundbites that you get every day in the Daily Records and no not conform to WP:NPOV--Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 18:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Its normal inter party banter, I've reverted it --Snowded ^TALK 18:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

This: "The party has been criticised over a £500,000 donation from the transport businessman Brian Souter. One month later, in April 2007, the SNP's commitment (made at the party's 2006 conference) to re-regulate the bus network was not included in their 2007 manifesto, although the SNP denies any direct link.[18] Opposition politicians suggested that the donation and policy shift were linked and that it was a case of "cash for policies", although no official accusations have been made.[19]" will have to be removed from "Accusations of 'cash for policies'" as the links show the accusations are not allowed by the wikipedia authorities above. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 12:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Re my post above: As I say, the stuff refrred to above links only to Labour etc. M.P.'s accusations and complaints - will an admin please either remove the thing above I point out in the article - or re-instate my own contributions to the article. There cannot be one rule for one user and another for snowded and his friend. Thanks. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 18:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Introduction

This: "Scots: Scottis Naitional Pairtie)" should surely be removed. It's just an attempt at a Scottish accent not a language. Also "is a social democratic" concerns me. Who says so? - that they're socialists and democratic? I don't think they are. Suppporting the Lockerbie bombing against the people is not socialist for one thing. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 12:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Penny, you should really read up on what you are posting. The "Lockerbie Bomber"'s representatives approached the Scottish government with a view to appeal for early release on compassionate grounds as there was apparently evidence to support the possibility of him dying within three months. As such, Kenny McAskill HAD to consider this, BASED ON THE EVIDENCE presented. The CORRECT decision was made on the basis of this. BTW, FYI, I personally think he should have been left to rot in Greenock Prison, BUT unfortunately, I also agree that the correct decision was made based on the evidence presented. If the request had been denied, based on evidence presented, it is possible that the Scottish government may have actually left themselves open to legal action. The fact that he is still alive after three months in neither here nor there, as precise predictions of longevity given some cancers are still difficult, even for the experts. An ex of mine, who, years ago was treated for Hodgkin's Lymphoma decided to discontinue treatment against medical advice, and was booked in for a checkup after a few months, although was told that she was not expected to be able to attend. (Being dead and all). This was over twenty years ago...82.6.1.85 (talk) 07:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

Scots is a language recognised by the Scottish Government, UK government and the EU (see ECRML). Although I disagree with the spelling, "Scottis Naitional Pairtie" is the name that the party uses when writing in Scots and so if we have the Gaelic name we should have the Scots name. Scroggie (talk) 13:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

There's no such thing as a Scottish government, and the U.K. 'Government' 'recognise' anything that's daft and harms society. The E.U. is irrelevant to the legitimacy of anything - especially in relation to the U.K. Putting this stuff in the 'Scots dialect' is just embarrassing for an encyclopedia. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 17:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Looks like there might be bias in this: "At the 2009 European Parliament election the party topped the poll for the first time in a European Parliament election since 1979, with almost 100,000 more votes than the Scottish Labour Party." - Topped what poll? European Parliament elections are held in the whole country - they're not local elections. The racist segregation of the SNP and Scottish Labour party don't come into it on this occaision.

And in this: "The party holds 2 of 6 Scottish seats in the European Parliament, narrowly failing to win a Third seat by less than 1%." The U.K. is in the E.U., Scotland has no membership of the E.U. That's one of the things Salmond is crazily campaigning for. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 18:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

There is no requirement for Scotland to be independent to talk about Scottish Seats, if you check the BBC and other agencies you will see its common. The accusation of racism that you make has no support that I know of in any third party reference, its your own unsupported polemic.--Snowded ^TALK 22:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Talking about Scottish seats is not anymore racist than talking about French seats. Race is not an issue with regards to the SNP (unless you can find WP:IRS source that says otherwise). There is the Young Asian Scots for Independence which is associated with the SNP. There is certainly a Scottish Government in the same way that your council is refered to as Local Government (See wikt:Government for more info). If the Scottish National Party has an official name in the Scots language then it should be listed, or all non-English names should be removed from all articles. Mutual-intellegability should not be a factor (else we should remove Parlement français). It is not Wikipedia's place to decide which officially (whether you approve of the "Governments" or not) recognised languages we should use. Scroggie (talk) 23:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)