Talk:Great Divergence

Why the China?

Maybe this article should talk less about China, and more about the great divergence. China's lack of growth is its own subject. The Great Divergence presumably should discuss things like the industrial revolution, modern economic growth, and the lack of growth in undeveloped nations. China should not dominate. —Preceding comment added by User:SushiK3 (talk) 04:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The High Level Equilibrium Trap addresses China's stagnation, not the Great Divergence. The Manchu section, besides being off-topic, is not reliably sourced. I propose to remove these and the China paragraph in the introduction. Kanguole 09:56, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

To repeat the question, why is there all this material about China in this article? Isn't this article supposed to be about the divergence of the West? Kanguole 19:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Most of the material on the Great Divergence seem to focus on China (which was roughly ahead of the west until the 17th century). I believe that a specific section on why each civilization diverged from the west is useful for this article.Teeninvestor (talk) 15:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

But that's the wrong way round: these other civilizations didn't diverge; they stayed relatively still while the West diverged. China is used as a reference point because it was static at a high level, but it is not the subject.

This article suffers from synthesis and speculation. There's a temptation for it to become a speculative comparison of the development of the West and China, or to be side-tracked into theories of Chinese economic history, which are both off-topic here and are best addressed in existing articles.

Elvin does at least make a comparison with Europe, though only in passing as his main focus is on China. The Manchu section however is speculation, has no connection with the topic, and is apparently unsourced. Kanguole 23:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Remove specifics - China

Remove focus on China! CantorFriedman (talk) 12:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Qing theory

Teeninvestor has re-added a sentence on the Qing between two relating to European development. That belongs in an article on Chinese history, not here. Kanguole 23:43, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

This article relates to the reasons for the Great Divergence, and this theory deserves to be considered as at least one. No one doubts the development of Europe; yet the stagnation of China after roughly 1500 also deserves an explanation. Teeninvestor (talk) 23:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

As I said above, it was Europe that diverged, not China. China is a benchmark against which Europe is measured, but it was not itself involved in the divergence.

You seem to be proceeding from an assumption that China was on a path that would lead to industrialization, and the question is what stopped it. I don't think there is any scholarly consensus for that position. Kanguole 00:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe that this is actually a topic of heated debate among scholars. It was generally agreed that prior to roughly the 17th century, Incomes and wealth in China exceeded that of Europe. During the Song Dynasty and Ming Dynasty, there was strong economic progress and growth, and it is considered a mystery why they did not develop an industrial revolution. This was a topic explored by prominent sinologists such as Joseph Needham, so I doubt it would be a position that would have no "scholarly consensus".Teeninvestor (talk) 20:29, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

The reference attached to this sentence is unclear. Does it refer to Peterson's introduction (from p1) or Spence's chapter on Kangxi (pp120-183)? Precisely where does it postulate that the Qing prevented industialization? Kanguole 11:17, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the volume of the Cambridge History of China cited in the article doesn't seem to mention the Great Divergence. That's not to say that the Qing theory isn't relevant – it may be covered in one of the many other volumes or another source entirely – but I would like to know who says it is. If the economic policies of the Quing dynasty played a role in the Great Divergence, wouldn't Pomeranz mention it in his book The Great Divergence?

"I believe that this is actually a topic of heated debate among scholars... This was a topic explored by prominent sinologists such as Joseph Needham, so I doubt it would be a position that would have no "scholarly consensus"." So which is it to be? Is there heated debate (ie: a lot of disagreement) or have scholars reached an agreement? You're contradicting yourself at the moment. Also, reference 6 doesn't support the text it's supposed to. The relevant bit from the Wikipedia article is "these scholars claim that although wages paid in grain were equal in Northwest Europe and prosperous parts of Asias such as Southern China, wages paid in silver were substantially lower in Asia". The page referenced from Allen's article mentions no other scholars, grain wages are completely absent, and only European settlements are mentioned. This needs fixing. Teeninvestor, I urge to be more precise in your referencing.

Saying Newcomen invented the steam engine is stretching things a bit. A rudimentary steam engine has been recorded as early as the first century AD; what Newcomen did was refine the steam engine and create something commercially viable. His ODNB entry has him down as inventing the atmospheric steam engine, rather than the steam engine as such. Where did you get your information? Nev1 (talk) 18:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Nev1, I am not responsible for the last part of the article. As to the Qing theory, I have substituted the correct citation (I was copying from my econ history article). There is heated debate, but a substantial minority of historians, in China and other countries would probably agree with this theory, so I believe it should be represented. It is not as if I am deleting all other theories (indeed, Qing theory is only 1 sentence, while the others are whole paragraphs), and substituting my own.Teeninvestor (talk) 19:44, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

What is this Li and Zheng (2001) reference you've added, and what does it claim? Kanguole 23:08, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I also see that the Li/Zheng book has been a problematic source for Economic history of China (pre-1911). According to this analysis, that book is deeply flawed and unreliable as a source. Kanguole 01:06, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea that the Qing caused the divergence rests on the assumption that Ming China was on a path that would lead to industrialization, and it is therefore necessary to explain what stopped it. You have provided no evidence that this assumption is supported by scholars in the field. Is there any? I see that User:Madalibi explained this very point to you at some length in February 2009. Kanguole 01:06, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea that the Ming and its predecessor was on a path to industrialization (or at least a potential candidate for it), is accepted by scholars. For example, here in the Cambridge history of china Ming dynasty introduction, we find this passage: "The growing importance of the maritime southeast provinces and the centrifugal forces that propelled many of the region's hardy residents into lives abroad preceded Europe's era of mercantile expansion and might have rivaled it." Another quote from the alien regimes volume states that: "Did the dynasties of conquest really represent a major setback in the "natural" development of Chinese society, the Chinese economy, Chinese political institutions, and Chinese culture? Without them, would the pattern of rapid growth and rational organization that had characterized Sung China in the eleventh century have continued? Did they abort what some scholars regard as the emergence of a "modern age" under Sung?" And this is just with Song, a dynasty which preceded the Ming by nearly 100 years. In addition, if you had read the work of Joseph Needham and other sinologists, they routinely made comparisons of Ming and Song to europe at that time; it was in fact stated by Needham and others that Europe's productivity in agriculture did not exceed china until the 17th century, and its iron production did not exceed that of the Song (an earlier dynasty than the Ming) until the 18th. I believe that the idea that China was a potential candidate for industrialization is well accepted; indeed, if otherwise Pomeranz would hardly need to mention in his paper that "the idea that China could have attained the industrial revolution is absurd" if that idea had never emerged in the first place. Later, I will get more sources to prove my point, but I think you understand that point.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Each of these is several assumptions away from someone saying that Ming China was on a path that would lead to industrialization.

1. No connection is made between emigration and industrialization.
2. The alien regimes intro relates to the Song and the Jurchen and Mongols in the 13th century. It implies nothing of the Ming and Manchu four centuries later.
3. There's no reason to assume that high productivity with pre-industrial methods leads to industrialization. The fact that Europe was less productive until it industrialized would seem to argue against that, no? Maybe having something that works well is a disincentive to trying to improve less effective methods.
4. That Pomeranz calls something "absurd" is hardly evidence that it's accepted.

You have inferred your conclusion from these using unstated assumptions. What is needed is people actually saying this about the Ming. Kanguole 16:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

You're changing the context, Kanguole. You asked me whether scholars stated that China was a potential source of industrialization. I have just proven that above (see for example the quotes about a "modern age" emerging during the Song and other quotes). As to the citation about the Ming and Manchus, I have already provided a citation, but if you want I can add another citation about the Song instead(which I had shown you above). You also ignored my earlier quote from a volume of the Ming about mercantile expansion. Yes, many scholars do not accept the Qing theory, though enough accept it to at least make it a minority viewpoint worthy of inclusion.

This is off topic, but as to your suggestion that high productivity undermines industrial growth, it is completely absurd; by your logic, then the industrial revolution should have occured in the jungles of central africa, with the lowest productivity and the most "incentive"; industrial revolution happened after a certain amount of capital and advances were made; England's relatively liberal policies allowed accumulation to a point where industrial technology was able to be developed and profitable (which Qing China did not reach).Teeninvestor (talk) 19:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

No, it's always been the same question: who are the scholars that accept the theory that the Qing caused the Great Divergence by diverting China from the road towards industrialization? Anyone who holds that must also hold that China was on that road to industrialization during the Ming period. Does anyone say that? The achievements of the Song are not relevant to this question, unless you want to blame the Yuan (or the Ming). I have asked for these scholars several times now. You have given many reasons for your belief, but you have not produced any historians directly addressing either of these questions. Kanguole 23:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Would you two be ok with taking a laissez-faire approach to the article for the next month, while the students have a go at it? I think the university project could be greatly beneficial to the article and while the issues raised here have been relevant to the article, I don't think we should get too bogged down here as the article is going to change a lot. I don't want our discussion to adversely affect how the article will develop, or for the students to think that what we're talking about here is of the utmost importance to the article when there may be other issues. After reading the link Piotrus provided, it looks like the students will have a structured approach to writing this and students generally understand the principles of referencing etc and what sources are appropriate. So perhaps the best thing we can do for this article is to take a back seat, shelve WP:BOLD for a while, and help out with tasks such as formatting which are difficult to pick up. Editing for the first time can be daunting, so let's try to avoid putting people off. Nev1 (talk) 23:11, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your consideration. My goal is to have the students involved and discussing on this talk page; hopefully this will benefit everyone (but please remember - they will all be very new to this project, from things like wiki syntax to wikiquette). One of the best things to do in the near future is to suggest what sources you think they should look at. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:49, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Prices paragraph

The last paragraph of the article is also a concern because it seems to be weighing research papers about a specicialized part of the evidence in this large and complex field. I think the story is that the conventional view is that the divergence had started well before industrialization, Pomeranz and Parthasarathi say the grain purchasing power of wages was about the same around 1800, but Allen, Broadberry and Gupta say silver equivalents support the earlier date. But it would better if some overview book did the synthesis for us. Kanguole 19:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Heads up

I see this there is some activity on this talk page :) I want to give interested editors heads up that this article may likely become a subject of an educational assignment aiming to expand it and raise to to a Good Article class over the next month or so. This assignment has led to good results in the past, but please note that with the exception of the course supervisor (myself) the new editors who will be working on this article are very new to Wikipedia. Any assistance and guidance you can offer to them will be much appreciated, and let's keep this in mind :) Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Poor students, over here in the UK university is finishing for the summer soon! Anyway, it would be good for this article to get some attention so good luck to them. Nev1 (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I would welcome the help of university students in fixing this article.Teeninvestor (talk) 12:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Wiki Project - Politics/Leadership To-Do List

Hello my group has chosen The Great Divergence for our Global Society Wikipedia project. I have the subcategory of 18th Century Politics and Leadership in relation to the Great Divergence. I plan on researching Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and Portugal. Some areas of interest so far: Britain- Kingdom of Great Britain; France - French Revolution; Portugal - Marquis of Pombal; Conflict – Britain and France; Enlightenment Philosophes – Hobbes, Locke, Montesquieu, Voltaire, Rousseau. This list will be altered and revised in the upcoming days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kro14 (talk • contribs) 03:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC) Kro14 (talk)Kro14 —Preceding undated comment added 10:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC).

Roman To Do List Technology

Hey guys I am going to be researching technological advances of the time period that facilitated the Great Divergence. I'll research military advances especially maritime improvements on behalf of the East. I will also look up any great scientists, engineers, or leaders of the time whose contributions spread technology through the West. As I research, I'm sure I'll find other factors that I'm not considering at the moment. I'm excited to work on this! Any suggestions are welcome, please!

-Roman RomanHarlovic (talk) 13:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

To Do List

I am focusing on the subcategory Country Specific Ideologies. The countries we plan on examining include Great Britain, France, Germany. Spain, Italy and Portugal; right now I am in the process of researching these countries and their ideologies during this period. Considering the span of time of the Great Divergence, this will be quite daunting! Of course over the remaining week, more specific plans of execution will emerge. Helgacrane (talk) 14:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Industry/Economics To Do List

I will be working on the industrial and economic advances that have contributed to the Great Divergence. I have already found a couple sources of information, one book and a couple academic publications, but any assistance would be appreciated. Derekl366 (talk) 14:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)