Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Media Matters for America

Extended content

One small quibble with the summary of the issue at dispute: The article actually now does include a short mention of a Hillary Clinton connection to MMfA. So, the dispute is not about whether we include a mention or not, but rather about the nature of the coverage and the weight of the coverage which should be given in the article. SaltyBoatr get wet 16:09, 27 May 2010 (UTC) I have a bit of a quibble with your above comment, Saltyboatr. The fact that Kelly Craighead's previous employment by Hillary Clinton is mentioned briefly in the article doesn't really show a connection between Hillary Clinton and MMfA. After all, Craighead might have worked for me, but the mere mentioning of that hypothetical fact in the article wouldn't mean that I had any substantial relationship to the organization. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:11, 27 May 2010 (UTC) I am specifically thinking of the footnote in the article which says "...Kelly Craighead, who planned Hillary's trips for eight years when she was First Lady, advised Media Matters "on all aspects" of its launch. And the new group wasted no time becoming an aggressive protector of Hillary's reputation and boasting its role as truth police, forcefully going after journalists for what the group deems to be leaving out key information of cherry-picking material." That, to me, is a "short mention" of a Hillary Clinton connection to MMfA seen in the existing MMfA article. SaltyBoatr get wet 20:37, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Fair enough, but how many article visitors read the footnotes? Badmintonhist (talk) 20:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC) I am glad that we agree that we are making at least a short mention. The question is then what is the proper weight? You want more weight given. SaltyBoatr get wet 20:46, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Secondary Issues Trying to keep discussion off of the project page and on the discussion page. Responding to this comment[5]. After more than a little soul searching, I honestly can say that I am approaching this with good faith. And, to be accused of being gratuitous if a false characterization. My "secondary issue" has not been conceived of lightly. It repeats concerns I have already raised several times before which remain un-addressed. And, my secondary issue is well considered after paying close attention to this controversy for over a month. I also would like to give credit for these editors being transparent in their intentions. A review of their talk page discussion record will show their unabashed intentions to counteract what they perceive as a left leaning bias at Wikipedia. I am not accusing them of duplicity. I am simply pointing out what I see, which is that editing to advocate for a personal political point of view is not according to policy here. SaltyBoatr get wet 02:57, 29 May 2010 (UTC) Being unwilling to admit to your own biases does not equate to not having them. For example, you have a significant interest in editing articles about right-wing extremists, but no interest in editing articles about left-wing extremists. Is that just by happenstance?--Drrll (talk) 10:48, 29 May 2010 (UTC) I answered that question before[6], I am interested in countering systemic editor bias. The guiding policy here is WP:NPOV. The policy violation being committed now is that you have boldly declared your intention to edit based on your personal politics. You favor a neutrality balance point being established by the weight of POV battle between competing editors. "Having editors with competing political views helps those goals to be achieved." That policy violation, in a nutshell, is my "secondary issue". SaltyBoatr get wet 14:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC) Let me underline SaltyBoatr's point: at least one editor in the "inclusionist" faction has already been blocked for blatant and unabashed POV pushing -- though some are more honest about their motives, the intent here seems to unquestionably an attempt to right some Great Wrong. You may find a winding discussion on the systemic issues, and a complete statement of my concerns and thoughts, here. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening statements

It's traditional for us mediators to get a lay of the ground by asking all participants to create opening statements, regarding primary concerns, secondary concerns, how you think I can help, and whether you like carrot cake. The last, in particular, is the most important.

However, I do ask that parties keep their statements brief, 300-400 words tops. Also: no cross-talking. That'll come later.

Opening statement by Badmintonhist

Before I start I would note that an ingenious hooligan has somehow managed to vandalize Saltyboatr's opening statement without leaving the separate record that would normally appear in the edit history. At the risk of allowing this same vandal to announce (incorrectly) that my favorite desert is key lime pie, I will now begin:

The issue here is quite basic. Should information that is pertinent to the subject of Media Matters for America, verifiable by neutral third party sources, and easily of sufficient weight relative to the rest of the article's content, be included or excluded from the article? I would opt for inclusion. In previous discussions those opposing inclusion of factual information briefly describing Hillary Clinton's association with MMfA have asserted that it is a "right wing meme" as if this were a reasoned argument for excluding it. The "meme" argument is as irrelevant to our task here as carrot cake. Encyclopedias legitimately contain all kinds of information that cause certain folks all along the political spectrum to nod in approval. The issue is not whether right-wingers or left-wingers want the information in or out of the encyclopedia. The issue is whether the basic fact (documented by journalists not ideologues) that Senator Hillary Clinton, then pretty much the putative Democratic presidential candidate for 2008, gave advice and support to a media watchdog organization belongs in a Wikipedia article about said organization. The answer is an emphatic YES. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

P.S. The most recent example of an attempt to concisely include the basic sourced information about Hillary Clinton's association with Media Matters, which was removed by one of the "exclusionist" editors, can be found here [[7]].

You mention that all folks across the political spectrum are going to look at this and form an opinion.

Some political commentators suggested that Media Matters exhibited a pro-Clinton bias during during the run-up to 2008 Democratic presidential primaries. Media Matters vigorously denied any favoritism toward a particular candidate.

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Is this a substantial part of the history of media matters? Some political commentators: who? vigorously denied? I suspect it's this tone that bothers some editors. Xavexgoem (talk) 07:26, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

I will confess that the "MMfA may have favored Clinton over the other Democratic contenders" part of the entry is not as solid as the rest. Several respected observers (at least one of them, Michael Crowley, a progressive) had strongly suggested that MMfA was tilting toward Clinton. All of them seemed to take for granted that there was a close connection between MMfA and Hillary. I did not want to make the entry too long and tried to summarize this part of it. One could make a good case for handling this part of the entry differently or even omitting it. Badmintonhist (talk) 14:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

P.P.S. Where does Soxwon's retirement from this particular fray place the state of the mediation? Badmintonhist (talk) 04:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

If he's a prominent editor in the article, and one side suspects Ill Motives (joke) of him in the future (i.e., suspicion that he's likely to disregard consensus gained here), then I may have to close. But most parties tend to agree with the consensus gained from of a mediation whether they were a part of it or not, since it looks dickish if they don't. What do you think (question open to all)? Xavexgoem (talk) 06:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening statement by Drrll

Several editors are wanting to keep out the MMfA article very well-sourced information (10 sources so far) that relates to a very prominent political figure's (as well as close friends and advisers of that figure) significant role in advising and providing funding for that organization during its beginning years. Besides the abundance of sources, Hillary Clinton herself bragged about her role in helping to "start and support" MMfA to a convention of fellow progressives.

At first, the objection was to the credibility of the sources. When the sources kept multiplying, the objections shifted to such accusations of obsession and promoting right-wing memes (implying poorly sourced memes). The fact is, nothing else in the entire MMfA article even comes close to the level of sourcing as the Hillary Clinton material.

The proponents only want to see a sentence or two of material in the article about Hillary Clinton and her close associates relationship to MMfA. Well-sourced material (if it exists) countering this notion could be included as well.--Drrll (talk) 00:34, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening statement by Arzel

From a historical aspect, the founding of MMfA should be included within the article. One of the most interesting aspects about any company is how it started and the nature of it's beginnings. To this point, the history of MMfA has been largely absent. Hillary Clinton, through her own words, has stated her role in the beginnings of MMfA. Given her prominence as a former Senator, spouce of a President, and current Secretary of State it is only natural to include her within the historical aspect of MMfA. The primary reasons for not including this information seem to be based on the belief that the only reason for including HRC is that it is being used for partisan purposes. Indeed the primary objections to the information is not that it isn't true, but that the sources have some bias against HRC and/or MMfA.

All of this leads me to believe that the only reason some do not want this information to be included is because they don't like it. It certainly is possible to include her part in the founding of MMfA in a neutral form using her own words. Arzel (talk) 16:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening statement by Soxwon

Withdrawing from mediation, don't feel that I can add anything at this point and may not be available for rest of mediation. Soxwon (talk) 03:34, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening statement by Blaxthos

It is my belief that a core cadre group of editors sympathetic to conservative causes/memes is attempting to introduce this information in opposition to Wikipedia policy, practice, and norm. My objection springs from several points:

1. Due weight -- Out of the hundreds (nay, thousands) of potential sources, there are only a handful that even acknowledge the "Hillary connection". This is a perfect example of editors seeking sources to fit the story they already want to tell -- Objective research of MMFA's history won't turn up any serious treatment of Hillary Clinton as a key figure in its history.
2. Accuracy -- Sourcing is almost nonexistent... of the few sources on point, the only one that covers this as anything more than trivia is from a biased author with an axe to grind. The meaning of the quote so often referenced by the proponents at best is ambiguous, and at worst is being willfully misrepresented to further the "Hillary connection" meme. It certainly doesn't provide enough context to sustain a claim that Clinton was doing anything more than making pandering, campaign-style statements of questionable accuracy to liberal constituents.
3. Synthesis -- Editorial action up to this point has made it very clear that the intent here is to present the material in such a way that a certain bias is reflected. Perfect example -- when inserting text associating MMFA with Clinton, it was placed in a "criticism" section rather than a "history" section even though there was no context/content/criticism.
4. Good faith -- this has come up for almost three years, and though no material facts have changed editors seem to have learned that if they just ignore consensus and continue to push their (biased) viewpoint ad infinitum they'll eventually run off any opposition. (Example: see myself and yiloslime walking away from the article).
5. NPOV -- the obsession with Clinton can be traced back to the early 1990's and Rush Limbaugh fans. Given the cadre group tends to focus on petty issues like these whilst ignoring major gaps in articles that are easily fixed, I don't think there's much of an attempt to represent the facts objectively and with proper weight.

Hope this helps. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening statement by Croctotheface

The issue here is not whether to include a mention of Hillary Clinton--there is one in the article already. I added it. The notion that I or other editors want to keep Clinton's name out of the article is just false.

The issue here is ostensibly about whether to expand that mention into a large one, one that overwhelms the rest of the material in the article and implies to the reader that Hillary Clinton is the single most important individual in the history of Media Matters. As SaltyBoatr has pointed out on the talk page, according Hillary Clinton such a high degree of weight is not a conclusion that anybody would reach based on reading reliable secondary sources about Media Matters. Rather, the research done to support a Hillary Clinton connection was conducted specifically to find sources to support having the article discuss Hillary Clinton in detail. Many of those sources have agendas. Many of the rest mention some connection to Clinton only in passing--put another way, the article would give substantially more weight to this "Clinton connection" than the articles it cites do. The articles that address the matter in more detail cover it as part of the day-to-day rigamarole of a political campaign. But again, the point here is that these editors worked precisely backwards: they began with something that they wanted the article to say, and then they went about piecing together individually weak support to make it seem more substantial.

But I actually think that the real issue here is more broad. For a time, certain editors raised a different issue: whether we needed to call Media Matters "liberal" in the lead of the article when we already quoted their self-description of "progressive." Despite a clear, longstanding consensus against doing this, these editors returned every few months to insist that "liberal" must go in the lead. They continually repeated that the group is called "liberal" in sources and accused editors who disagreed with them of trying to purge the word "liberal" from the article--never mind, of course, that it did and still does reference "liberal" or "liberals" several times elsewhere. We're seeing the same thing with this Hillary Clinton business, which was first raised in 2007, and it has come up every once in a while since then, without ever gaining the support of a consensus of editors. It needs to stop. Croctotheface (talk) 07:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening statement by SaltyBoatr

I love carrot cake!!! It has been my favorite desert ever since I was a child.

In a nutshell, this article is a magnet for POV battles. Therefore must take extra care to follow the letter and the spirit of WP:NPOV policy. After doing my homework and reading a lot about this topic, I see that this point about a "Hillary connection" is objectively a trivia point about the MMfA. Though, I do see that this "Hillary connection" is also treated as a 'talking point' in the conservative media and blog-o-sphere, seemingly as a counter-attack aimed at the MMfA. Per NPOV policy we must use a neutral point of view, and mirroring this conservative "Hillary connection" in the article improperly raises a point of trivia to a point of significance. Also, it is troubling that this involves one or two editors here who are unabashedly on a campaign to battle lefties at Wikipedia. Agenda based editing should be avoided. SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 18:28, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening statement by Yilloslime

I pretty agree with the statements by Blaxthos, SaltyBoatr, and Croctotheface.

Media Matters has been the subject of plenty of criticism (mostly from the Right), and has done plenty of criticizing of people (mostly on the Right.) Just as we're under no obligation to always include MMfA's criticisms of people and media outlets in our articles on those subjects, we're under no obligation to include every criticism of MMfA in this article. And make no mistake, the sources discussing Clinton's (alleged) involvement with MMfA cast it as a criticism. And what is/was Clinton's relationship with MMfA? We really don't know. As I see it, some fairly non-neutral observers have made a mountain of a molehill, and tried to spin it as a damning criticism of MMfA. But there's no reliable sourcing on what her relationship actually is, so we can't reliably say anything about. What we can do, of course, is report the controversy, but there the issue is: How much WP:WEIGHT to give it. I'm on record repeatedly as saying that I'm not opposed to some mention of it. Heck, I wouldn't be opposed it giving it a little more coverage than the current version affords it. But the wording proposed by the "other side" has, in my opinion, given it way to much weight. E.g. the text removed here gave it way too much attention in that it was in it's own section called "History" (which neglected all other aspects of the org's history) that came right after the LEDE, used the Clinton name three times, and failed to properly attribute the material. If you read that paragraph, you'd come away thinking Clinton played some central, pivotal role in MMfA's inception, which she did not, at least according to the preponderance of reliable sources. Yilloslime ^T_C 04:44, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Opening statement by Ink Falls

People have mentioned time and again that Hillary is never mentioned in the history of Media Matters, but I would like to point out to these people that there currently is no real repository of the historical events of Media matters(at least that I can find), thus we are in effect writing the history of MMfA. Anyways I'm sure that Media Matters would be happy to hear they are endorsed by such a popular political figure and I see no reason why the Media Matter fans would disagree with the inclusion of the info on the obvious connection between her and MMfA. The notion that this is a "right wing meme" is completely ridiculous, if anything it's a left wing meme because it gives a semblance of legitimacy to MMfA that it could never gathered from it's other contributors(George Sorros for instance). In short it's self-evident(given the sources and contributions) that this is significant and if there are others that have played similar roles then they should be mentioned as well. I maintain this position despite the baffling and confused assertions that this is a POV edit by right wing fanatics. Ink Falls 23:42, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I like cherry pie. :) With some homemade french vanilla whip topping and a scoop of pralines and cream ice cream.

Comments by Xavexgoem so far

It seems three things have been certainly established:

• There are reliable sources mentioning a link between HRC and MM, but few in the way of exposes.
• Both groups believe their opposite group is whitewashing the article
• The primary issue is due weight.

Is this correct so far? I'm still hoping for more statements. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Those three things are correct, IMO. SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 19:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I would say that the "inclusionists" believe that the "exclusionsists" are whitewashing the article. The exclusionists seem to believe that the inclusionists are politicizing the article. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I do not think that the three points above accurately represent the totality of the objections. Please see my (freshly placed) statement above. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm hearing cadre, petty, etc. I understand frustration (I mean, look what I'm doing), but I please ask everybody to refrain from furthering any animosity between ourselves. I don't want to know what editor X thinks about editor Y; I want to know what editor X thinks about the article and how it can be made better. I understand that there are cabals (TINC) and biases; those will come out in the wash. But I wish to keep that as my judgment, lest I get caught up in others' opinions, and then have those opinions reflected on me. Xavexgoem (talk) 21:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC) Of course, y'all can say nasty things to each other over email and in your head or whatever. But here, please, no.

My apologies for being unclear and perhaps poor taste in diction.  ;-) In my statement above, cadre is only meant to refer to a group of like minded individuals set upon a common belif; it is not meant to convey any belief of coordinated efforts or a structural group. It was a poor noun to choose; I will amend my statement shortly. Regarding "petty", I refer to the specific content in dispute (as in "the Hillary tidbit is a petty portion of MMFA's origins"), not to the character or actions of those with whom I disagree. Hope this helps. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:56, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

It's no problem. And, of course, it's intended for everybody ;-) Xavexgoem (talk) 23:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC) I always say "they are a cabal (WP:TINC!) or something to that effect, just to make myself clear and give some folks some of the weirder WP:CLUE

The Newsday source is quite detailed in its explanation of the links between the two, even though it was written before HRC's admission of the link. I agree with Badmintonhist on the whitewash issue. Yes, I agree that weight is the primary issue.--Drrll (talk) 00:57, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

• Ink Falls points out in his statement that "there currently is no real repository of the historical events of Media matters ... thus we are in effect writing the history of MMfA" which I pretty much agree with. I think if we try to write a history section that treats MMfA's origins and subsequent development holistically, then the Clinton issue will go away. When the history section focuses exclusively on Clinton, then it's a WP:WEIGHT issue, even if we're only talking about 3 sentences. But when it's three sentences out of something like 2 or 3 paragraphs, then it's less likely to run afoul of WP:UNDUE. Yilloslime ^T_C 00:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Exactly, which is why the best way to settle this topic is for somebody to do some research and create a history section(which could maybe be merged with the Donors section?) and then just to include a few lines about Hillary. Ink Falls 01:55, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Tempting suggestion, Ink Falls. I am afraid it can't be done without WP:SYN and WP:NOR. There just isn't that much good sourcing available. One problem I see is that there are very few third party reliable sources which are directly writing about the MMfA. (See this study, I could only find six third party reliable sources speaking directly about the MMfA.) The vast majority of citations in this article presently point to articles that make a small incidental references to the MMfA. The way it works is that an editor around here gets an idea, then they Google search it to find a snippet incidental references to "prove" their idea, (needed to advance their personal POV agenda). The way it should work to avoid editor bias is that editors should read all the best available sourcing that directly describes the MMfA, and then the editors write an article that reflects what they read in the sourcing matching the NPOV balance seen in the sourcing. Bottom line, except for the editor political agendas, it doesn't look like this topic has received all that much 'direct coverage' in third party sourcing, therefore this article should be short to match. SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 20:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Eh, I'm not so sure about that. Three sentences might be more than you think--how many sentences are you thinking there are per paragraph? I'd say that especially considering the short Wikipedia paragraphs, we're dealing with something like 4-8 sentences per paragraph. Three sentences could be something like 40% of a two paragraph history section. Unless we're going to write several pages of history, then Hillary Clinton doesn't merit more than the sort of namedrop reference that's in there now. Croctotheface (talk) 07:39, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Generally inadvisable to make concessions based off of size, especially considering this is a wiki. We report what's said according to its due weight. Xavexgoem (talk) 08:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

The numbers I threw out were not meant to be taken literally. My point was that if the history section is 100% about Clinton, then there's a weight problem no matter how long or short it is. But if treat the whole history of MMfA fairly, then we can probably fit in a mention of the purported Clinton-MMfA connection while respecting WP:WEIGHT. Yilloslime ^T_C 14:13, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Since it seems like replies are now allowed, I'd like to respond to one of Arzel's assertions above: Hillary's role in MMfA is indeed in dispute. Check the MMfA article talkpage. Her remarks in a speech are not enough to confirm her as a co-founder. Politicians do not have the same standards for truth that WP does. Looking at the Hillary Clinton article, even the phrasing there is overstating it: "..advised and nurtured the Clintons' former antagonist David Brock's Media Matters for America..". I note that the relevant talk archive mentions only her speech on youtube and the unreliable Gerth-VN book. -PrBeacon (talk) 16:59, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Addressing editor Blaxthos's points

I am off on a long-planned budget tour of Spain, Portugal and Morocco tomorrow, but before I depart I would like to address the points raised by the legendary Wikipedia editor Blaxthos, in the order in which he raised them.

A.It is true that potentially hundreds (or even thousands) of reliable sources might have written about the relationship between Hillary Clinton and Media Matters, whereas only a handful did. The problem with this argument is that only a relative handful of reliable third-party sources wrote much of anything about Media Matters. . The market for news stories about organizations which critique political news stories is rather limited. This fact is well illustrated by the paucity of neutral third-party sourcing in Wikipedia's article on Media Matters which is largely "self-sourced." The more pertinent question is this: Among the serious journalists who did take more than a passing glance at Media Matters between 2004 and 2008, what percentage at least mentioned a connection between then Senator Clinton and the organization? And here, I believe, the percentage is impressively high.

B. The quality of the sourcing for at least a mention of Hillary Clinton's association with Media Matters is actually quite good; in fact, probably better, in terms of WP:Notability, than anything else in our Wikipedia article. It includes the authors of a major biography of Hillary Clinton, the authors of a best-selling book on the 2008 presidential campaign, and reporters or editors from MSNBC, Newsday, and The Hill among other significant news outlets.

As for editor Blaxthos's suggestion about the Hillary Clinton quote, that it may have been nothing more than a politician's "pandering, campaign-style statement of questionable accuracy to progressive liberal constituents," it contrasts rather starkly to his previous interpretation [[8]] that the senator "wasn't speaking directly about MMfA, but rather about creating an atmosphere conducive to more diverse viewpoints in space previously dominated by right wing media." Apparently the author, justifiably, had trouble believing his earlier take on the quote. I rather believe that (then) Senator Clinton meant exactly what she said, that she "helped to start and support" Media Matters and the Center for American Progress.

C. Even experienced Wikipedia editors often place appropriate copy for an article in an inappropriate section of the article. Two routine tasks of Wikipedia editors are retitling sections and rearranging the placement of material. Excluding perfectly good information because because an editor once placed it in an inappropriate section of an article is absurd.

D. Editors have a duty to press their arguments when they reasonably believe that those arguments have not been received in good faith in the first place. One gets the impression here that had the three major networks all done hour long specials on the connection between Media Matters and Hillary Clinton at least one editor would still arguing against any mention of Hillary Clinton in the Media Matters article.

E. Since the term "obsessed" was raised, I would submit that it more properly adheres to editors who resist accepting concise, innocuously worded, and well sourced material into the article because they think that it might reflect negatively on a subject for which they have much ideological sympathy. In politics, certain facts tend to make some folks happy and other folks unhappy. It's the nature of the beast. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:11, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Apparently Badmintonhist applies a different standard to articles about subjects which he supports, like Fox News. -PrBeacon (talk) 19:43, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

This is a good example of the central issue facing this discussion. People against it's inclusion seem to only attack inclusionist for being biased rather then making a logical counter argument. Whatever reasons for Badminton's post (which you cannot prove) aside, his response was logical and well thought out, so it deserves a logical counter argument, not a "Well you're biased so we should just ignore what you said". If we argue like that then Badminton could have just as easily wrote "Blaxthos is biased let's ignore his post", but he didn't, he respected his argument and made a logical, well thought out counter argument. Let's follow his example and respond to each others arguments instead of just calling them bias. That being said, I agree with Badminton's post. Ink Falls 19:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Calling out an editor's bias and use of double standards is not an attack, check WP:Npa policy. And just because BH's post is long and you like it doesn't make it logical and well thought out. -PrBeacon (talk) 22:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Taking Ink Fall's advice, responding to specific Badmintonhist arguments:

A) Why 2004 to 2008, (other than that the 'big fish' in Democratic politics during most of that time was the front runner HRC)? Why exclude 2009-2010? (Oh, HRC is not prominent during 2009-2010.) If this article is about MMfA, it seem logical that we focus on the recent timeframe.

B) Um, that book you describe isn't written about the MMfA. It is written about HRC. Aren't you in the wrong Wikipedia article then? This looks like a case of systemic editor bias. You have found a point you want to make, then you seek out sourcing to prove your point. That is backwards. Instead you should be reading about the MMfA, and then editing what you see in the material about the MMfA.

B.1) Regarding what HRC meant, it is anybody's guess. Just as likely is that she was reacting to the boo's she just received at the Koz presidential debate that had just finished, and that she was pandering their support during this Q&A session saying in other words... "hey! I am one of you". We should tread carefully when the literal meaning may not be the 'in context' meaning.

C) The point which you evade is that it is blunt evidence of improper editor POV agenda based editing to call a connection to HRC to be "criticism" of the MMfA. This was not an innocent slip up. There are editors here who happen to be mirroring the well known "Hillary bashing" talking-point which is widely seen, where a mention "Hillary" followed by an 'eye roll gesture' as a smear tactic. We should be carefully avoiding that here, it is policy to do so, see WP:NPOV.

D) This is a straw man.

E) Actually, we have a duty to read all the best sourcing, and edit based on what we see in the sourcing. What is happening here is that editor's have a Hillary hypothesis, and then have sought out to prove that hypothesis. I have read the sourcing and see that Hillery Connection is a trivia point about the MMfA. The article presently gives the Hillary Connection a small amount of coverage, which is perfectly appropriate for a trivia point. It would be wrong to elevate this to anything bigger than a small amount of coverage. SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 20:55, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I. I have no problem at all with us focusing on the entire six years or so of MMfA's existence. However, this is not a running blog. History does matter, including the organization's founding and the election cycle of 2008.

II. No, Salt, we should be taking our reliable sources about MMfA where we find them. As I previously pointed out, reliable third party sources haven't written a whole hell of a lot about MMfA. That's why most of the information in our Wikipedia article about MMfA comes from MMfA.

IIa. No, Salt, what HRC meant is not "anybody's guess". She meant that she "helped to start and support" MMfA and CfAP. Admittedly the exact nature of that help is not specified, but she most certainly meant what she said. As I asked before, where are the reliable sources contending that she meant something quite different (and that this would therefore be a misleading quote)?

III. Not sure of your point here, Salt. You're still angry that an editor once put material connecting Hillary with MMfA in a "criticism" section? Get over it! As for the "eyeroll" stuff, you lose me. I can't follow your syntax.

IV. V. NO TIME, GOTTA PACK. GOOD LUCK EVERYBODY! Badmintonhist (talk) 22:12, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

And, may I add a sixth point? The elephant in the room here is that this Hillary Connection is a Conservative talking point. Perhaps the compromise is that we address it in the article by saying out loud, that it is a Conservative talking point. My sourcing that this is true is the article in The Hill[9], (by-the-way one of the few articles we have seen which is actually written about the MMfA), which pretty bluntly describes the Conservative counter attack strategy aimed at MMfA, giving Tucker Carlson as a specific example. I mentioned this before, but am saying it again: Reading this entire 2,300 word article in _The Hill_ we see that the thesis being presented is that "Conservatives like Tucker Carlson..." (argue that) "“(MMfA) is an arm of the political party started in part by Hillary Clinton." If we are going to give coverage to this conservative argument, NPOV requires us to phrase it as a conservative argument. We cannot simply present it as a statement of fact when the sourcing like this describes it as a conservative argument. Indeed, the 'big picture' being presented in the Rothstein article is that "Meanwhile, like a beanstalk, the organization grows." No wonder that conservative opponents of the MMfA would use a strategy to diminish the reality of the growth by labeling it with a Hillary meme. The 'big picture story' here is that MMfA is part of a new and powerful liberal Netroots phenomena, and one chapter of this story is that conservative commentators like Tucker Carlson are fixated on the Hillary connection. Might this be a workable compromise? It is reliable sourced that the Hillary Connection is a Conservative strategy to attack and distract about the MMfA. Let's just say that. Hmm??? SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 22:04, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

This seems fair (addressing it as a conservative talking point) to me, but I'd like opinions as well. I think we don't need to explicitly state such; proper attribution will probably do (Politico, Fox News, et al), imho. What does everyone think? Xavexgoem (talk) 22:09, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

But why should we report on conservative talking points at all? Should we report on all conservative talking points that gain any kind of traction? Is that what we want for the encyclopedia? Doesn't this send the message that persistent attempts to get trivial conservative talking points inserted into the encyclopedia will succeed? Otherwise, if we do decide to report on talking points because they are somehow significant as talking points, why should avoid making it clear that they are significant as talking points? Also, an attribution to Fox News does not the same meaning as describing something as a conservative talking point. Croctotheface (talk)

By that definition then we should say that much of the "controversy" on conservative pundits is just part of an overall smear campaign that caught some traction(which the evidence clearly seems to suggest). Who are we to make these judgments, that an statement is a meme, or a smear attack, and report them as such without any secondary sources to back us up? Ink Falls 23:21, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Did you read Salty's original comment? He clearly said that our sources do in fact identify this as an opinion propagated by conservatives. Croctotheface (talk) 23:27, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I object to wording it as a conservative talking point just because a single source (out of 10) says that a single person (Tuck Carlson) speculates that MMfA is an arm of a political party. No one here is suggesting that we put in that MMfA is an arm of a political party. I say we stick to the many sources that demonstrate as a fact, not as speculation, that HRC (and associates) advised MMfA and helped support/fund MMfA.Drrll (talk) 00:27, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

If that's the case then we should present the wording something like: Coservatives have argued that Hillary was a member of the founding party a MMfA, an idea supported by statements she made claiming "*Insert her statement of Brock and contributions". Would this work?

Could somebody first just explain how saying Hillary contributed and helped the program at its start is a criticism of the program? I would've thought it was good for them, showing they have mainstream liberal support. Ink Falls 22:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Oooh, this is a good point. This could make for a considerably even compromise. Any opinions on this? Xavexgoem (talk) 20:11, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Before this information was briefly placed in the Criticism section, it was placed in a History section. Placing it in something like a History section seems like it would be much less contentious. Drrll (talk) 20:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I think this is a good option. However, if appears that the MM-Hilary connection (the negative connotations, at any rate) is a little too tenuous to be linked into "history". Unless the positive ones are also iffy... but then it really doesn't belong in history? That's up to you folks, of course. Xavexgoem (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that our opinions of what's positive or negative much factors in here, but I had intended my version below for a history section, and I wrote my version so as to avoid connoting anything positive or negative. I'm generally leery of adding more material with respect to Hillary Clinton--even if it's verifiable, it implies that she had a large part in their history. It seems that she had a small role as an informal advisor early on, but that's about it. I think it's fine to say that, but that's pretty much the upper limit for how much weight Clinton should have in the article. If we start teasing out positives and negatives in detail--even though it might be fun to explore from a writing standpoint--we make Clinton appear more important to Media Matters than she really is. Croctotheface (talk) 21:46, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll attempt to answer the specific point raised by Xavexgoem & Ink Falls here: Media Matters is a watchdog group. Their supposed ties to specific politicians, especially such a polarizing figure as Hillary Clinton, may be used in claims of bias. Granted, it's a tricky concept since they self-identify as progressive. (I argued against what some editors see as 'admitted bias' over at the Talk:FNC page). -PrBeacon (talk) 17:11, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Compromise?

I'm not sure if I even like this version myself, but I figured I'd put it out there. Assuming we have enough reliable sources to establish that Clinton "advised" MM, or something like it (and I'm not even convinced of that at this point), how would people feel about reworking the Clinton mention into something like:

"Media Matters hired numerous political professionals who had worked for Democratic politicians and other progressive groups. Hillary Clinton advised Media Matters in its early stages out of a belief that progressives should follow the lead of conservatives in forming think tanks and advocacy groups to support their political goals."

Again, I'm not sure on the facts/verifiability here, but if we're OK with the sourcing, I'd be fine with that kind of structure. I think that one sentence in this vein would accord Clinton appropriate weight relative to the entire history of Media Matters and would place her in an appropriate historical role (again, provided that our sources establish that she has one at all.) What do others think? Would even this be too much weight? Would this be acceptable to my colleagues on the other side? Or would you hold out for still more weight given to Clinton? Croctotheface (talk)

This would be fine by me. :) Ink Falls 23:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

That looks good to me as well. Croc, I reformated your statement to make it more readable, feel free to revert if you wish. Arzel (talk) 00:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

DAMNED GOOD, by my lights! Badmintonhist (talk) 00:37, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Surprised to say it, but that looks perfectly worded and acceptable. I am impressed and pleased that we could so easily find a version acceptable to most (all?) -- much respect to Croc for the wordsmithery, and to all the other editors for such quick agreement. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I know I officially resigned from this mediation, so I hope this isn't out of line, but I also approve of this text. Soxwon (talk) 03:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I would prefer that the corresponding quote from Hillary Clinton be included, along with the information related to "support" from the quote (that is, that her close friends had a significant role in funding MMfA). That said, I agree that the wording by Croc is well done and I could go with that.Drrll (talk) 01:22, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I have to give Croc credit. Very well worded. The entry really no longer "needs" the quote since Hillary Clinton's advisory role is already stated as a fact. The quote then becomes rather gratuitous. Also, stating that MMfA hired "political professionals who worked for Democratic politicians . . . " and then mentioning Hillary's advisory role, gives the politically savvy reader a pretty good sense of what was going on. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:41, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Likewise, the note can be ref'd or footnote'd, if need be. I also suggest it stay off the main article, since the weasally "close friends" could be anyone in DC, I imagine. Xavexgoem (talk) 14:06, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I can't support including the quote in any manner. The implication here is still to represent some sort of close relationship between HRC and MMFA, which runs afoul of the issues we raised above (UNDUE, NPOV, RS, etc). While I appreciate that editors are being transparent about their intent, I'm not at all comfortable with the continued "imply the bias we can't inject" mentality. Can we please stick with the compromise and call this done? Thanks. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 15:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd be OK with putting the quote in a footnote, along with the context of the quote before and after it. As I said before, I'd like to see the information about the significant funding of MMfA by HRC's closest friends included. The exact words "closest friends" comes directly from the sources, including one reference directly from HRC herself about one of her friends--in her memoirs Living History. Drrll (talk) 00:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I support Xavexgoem's idea. Further, I note Blaxthos repeatedly uses an unfriendly wiki behavior, at the least, that does not incline one to accede to his protestations. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 15:14, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Xavexgoem said that we should include the quote. It might be that we cite a source that includes the quote, which is fine, but there's no reason to place it in the encyclopedia. As Badmintonhist said, the quote is redundant with something that actually says what Clinton did--the only reason to include it at that point would be to imply something we can't otherwise say, and suggests a political kind of "piling on" mentality. Also, would you somehow be inclined to agree with Blaxthos if his tone were different? In my experience, editors that disagree with Blaxthos tend to disagree at precisely the same rate with other editors who take a less direct approach. Croctotheface (talk) 16:27, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I only offered it as an alternative, incase consensus were there. It doesn't look like it is, and it looks to be a bit of subtle synthesis. The terseness of Blaxthos's tone may bother some, but it's not something to take personal. If it were truly something to take personally, you'd take it to AN/I or WQA. And you lose all capital that way. Xavexgoem (talk) 17:44, 5 June 2010 (UTC) We're editors, dammit.

I don't want to piss on the parade here, but I'd still like to see more context. If the proposal is to insert just the blockquoted text into the article, then I'm opposed. If we're going to write a history section for the article, and that section includes the sentence in question, then I'm OK with it. I also see no need to include the Hillary quote. Yilloslime ^T_C 17:56, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd also like to see more context, since the phrase "Hillary Clinton advised Media Matters" is not fact -- it is largely conjecture by others and political posturing by her, unsupported by primary and neutral secondary sources. In fact, User:BH inadvertently gives reason why the first sentence gives false context. And I'm not sure how Blaxthos' was being 'unfriendly' other than he disagreed. -PrBeacon (talk) 18:40, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Extended content

Facts in WP are determined by reliable sources. That Hillary Clinton advised Media Matters is directly supported by the Newsday source, and backed up by two books by major reporters. Drrll (talk) 00:41, 6 June 2010 (UTC) At least one of the two books is unreliable. And the Newsday story you cite is not available to us for verification. -PrBeacon (talk) 17:07, 6 June 2010 (UTC) Let's take the above compromise quote and source it, then go from there. Xavexgoem (talk) 19:48, 5 June 2010 (UTC) Could everyone here read _The Hill_ [10] article please. Notice that it describes, at length, conservative criticism of MMfA, and it just gives a tiny mention to the Hillary Clinton connection. Per policy, we should be mirroring that weight seen in the sourcing, which is a tiny weight. (And, now, we already give a small mention to Hillary). The article status quo looks about right to me. SaltyBoatr get wet 22:08, 5 June 2010 (UTC) I would agree with you if The Hill article was the sole source, but it is only one of 10 sources, many of which assign a far greater weight to her connection with MMfA. Drrll (talk) 00:44, 6 June 2010 (UTC) Can you provide those sources, please? There haven't been many on this page, yet. Xavexgoem (talk) 02:41, 6 June 2010 (UTC) The 10 sources are found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Media_Matters_for_America#Sources It's about to rain cherries... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 05:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC) Be that as it may, this is the reason I have to do what I do. This isn't a competition; there is no conscious intent. People believe something needs to be said, so they push for adding it into the article. Others believe something shouldn't be said, so they push for removing it. Then everyone hates each other, and I have to deal with comments like this. Xavexgoem (talk) 05:53, 6 June 2010 (UTC) Wikipedia is not a platform for people who "believe something needs to be said". As SaltyBoatr points out above, what should be happening is that editors objectively read the available source material, and then formulate an article based on the facts and their appropriate weight in the source material. This is a perfectly horrible example of that being turned on its head. I don't hate anyone, but I do recognize (and will vocally identify) when editors start cherry-picking sources, injecting biased information beyond its proper weight, or otherwise attempt to advocate their personal viewpoints. Your assessment of the way things work is undoubtedly more pragmatic than mine, but the only way we can possibly hope to fix the larger problem is to call out the bad behavior every time -- quickly, directly, and without exception. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 15:18, 6 June 2010 (UTC) I'm sorry Blax, but that is bullshit. This is a perfectly horrible example of that being turned on its head. I don't hate anyone, but I do recognize (and will vocally identify) when editors start cherry-picking sources, injecting biased information beyond its proper weight, or otherwise attempt to advocate their personal viewpoints. You cannot honestly point to this and say such things when you yourself constantly push Media Matters for America and Huffington Post. Your assessment of the way things work is undoubtedly more pragmatic than mine, but the only way we can possibly hope to fix the larger problem is to call out the bad behavior every time -- quickly, directly, and without exception. The problem with this kind of stand Blaxthos is that you yourself are biased and let that seep into your editing whether you like it or not. Perhaps this could be why you are always butting heads with people. But honestly, maybe you should consider how it looks for you to be so trigger happy with accusations when you yourself can be accused of the same things (or are you so jaded that you feel that those who differ in opinion and do not stand down are automatically POV pushing, edit warriors). Soxwon (talk) 18:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC) But you end up cornering defensive folks who will they bare their teeth, and then you will bare yours. That's my only concern. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:31, 6 June 2010 (UTC) No, what he does is build ill-will and make reasonable discussions near impossible for those who do not have the patience to wade through his endless accusations. Soxwon (talk) 18:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Stop it, all of you. Give me the sources, and answer Croctotheface's question. Xavexgoem (talk) 19:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The 10 sources can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Media_Matters_for_America#Sources . I'll copy them over here if you prefer. Drrll (talk) 19:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

These are all sourced in 07-08. Does this matter have any currency vis-a-vis Media Matters today? Xavexgoem (talk) 20:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I am not aware of any more current sources. What's being proposed to put in all deals with what occurred before mid-2008, so it's not surprising that all the sources are from 2008 and earlier. Drrll (talk) 20:09, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the Game Change book is from 2010. Drrll (talk) 20:12, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The book Game Change isn't a book about Media Matters for America. SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 14:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, indeed. But my question is of currency. Make no mistake: this will be included in the article. What I'm now wondering is if there could be arguments that this connection between Hillary Clinton and MM could be in both a negative AND positive light (as it were). Xavexgoem (talk) 20:17, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

You are wrong to use a future tense "will be included". The connection between HRC and MMfA is already included in the article. The question is simply should there be extra weight added by giving extra focus to a quote from an impromptu talk given by HRC to a Netroots focus group 8/4/2007[11]. SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 16:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Still interested in my original question

Setting aside sourcing and wording, I'd appreciate an answer to the original question I asked. Would something in the vein of my original quote be too much weight given to Clinton, just right, or too little? I don't want to presume anything here, but I get the sense that many editors are happy with it, and some have expressed reservations that it needs to go into a more comprehensive section than we have now--but it would likely be the right amount of weight in a more complete section. Is that about right?

My feeling is that it's going to be downhill after we solve the weight issue, since I expect that the sources will be adequate to support the main thrust of the content. Croctotheface (talk) 06:47, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is hard to follow, please give a diff to point to your "original question". The WP:DUE weight issue is core, I agree. I object to a process where editors get an idea, then those editors go out and do a bunch of Google searches to prove that idea; because that violates policy. Per WP:DUE policy we should be reading sourcing and matching the weight seen in the sourcing. No agenda driven editing. (And, I have read all the identified reliable sourcing that is written primarily about the MMfA.)[12], and don't see significant weight given to the HRC "start and support" Koz talk. SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 14:15, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

It's the same question I asked again in this subsection. Would my version give the right weight given to Clinton, too much, or too little? Croctotheface (talk) 17:19, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Too much weight. (I assume that Croc means his compromise wording at the top of this thread). The fact that it was immediately satisfactory to several of the more contentious editors leads me to believe that it goes too far. Perhaps if they had previously engaged in respectful debate without patronizing or dismissing opposing viewpoints, then a mutual compromise would be so easily reached. -PrBeacon (talk) 17:23, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Would I be safe in assuming that you think Clinton should get no weight at all in the MM article? And more generally, I don't think the "if editor X likes it, then it must be bad" formulation is at all helpful for a collaborative project like Wikipedia. That kind of approach would only give editors an incentive to fight any compromise for at least a little while so as to avoid appearing "too happy" about it. Croctotheface (talk) 18:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Not really helpful to exaggerate and say "Clinton should get no weight", as the article right now does describe a Hillary connection. The question is whether additional weight should be given. SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 21:54, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I was trying to ascertain PrBeacon's opinion with the "no more weight" comment. That said, I think that my version doesn't give any more weight than the current version, and it would replace the Craighead reference (who, incidentally, is a minor figure who probably doesn't deserve weight in the article herself). Croctotheface (talk) 22:33, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I still am unclear what is your "original question"/"original version". Could you point to the exact diff? SaltyBoatr ^{get wet} 15:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

It's right at the top of this section. It's the sentence after the one with "original question" in it. "Setting aside sourcing and wording, I'd appreciate an answer to the original question I asked. Would something in the vein of my original quote be too much weight given to Clinton, just right, or too little?" Croctotheface (talk) 19:17, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll help out :-) Xavexgoem (talk) 23:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

No I said earlier that it needs more context. If you say that MMfA hired Democratic party operatives and Hillary advised MMfA at its start, you're framing the watchdog group in that light. Just because Hillary says she helped start it doesnt make it true. Politicians claim plenty of things in their speeches. And though I had second thoughts about how my response might appear, I still feel justified in mentioning their overly quick agreement. -PrBeacon (talk) 21:47, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

This is precisely the kind of discussion of sourcing and wording I specifically asked us to avoid in this section. I'm asking you to assume for the sake of argument that we can verify the facts in my version above. (For what it's worth, I'm confident that we can, but you don't need to agree to answer the next part.) Assuming that "advised" is verifiable, would this be an appropriate amount of weight? Croctotheface (talk) 22:33, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

It seems like you're putting the cart before the horse. How can you set aside issues of sourcing (and wording?) to decide what weight to give it? And what changed in the past week-plus, where you went from then "I'm not sure if I even like this version myself" and "I'm not even convinced of [enough reliable sources to establish that Clinton "advised"] at this point" to now "confident that we can [verify the facts in my version]"? Besides, I answered your weight question already, I think the connection needs more context even if the sources hold up. -PrBeacon (talk) 23:41, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I think the weight issue is the foremost one here. I don't really think that there's going to be a sourcing/phrasing issue that's half as serious as weight. (Incidentally, I was iffy about that version at first, but I've grown to like it more as time went on--but I don't see what that has to do with the merit of what I"m saying.) More importantly, would I be right to believe that you're saying that: (1) if the facts turn out to be verifiable and (2) if the section is expanded to give a more complete picture of MM's history, then this one sentence would be appropriate weight? Croctotheface (talk) 03:54, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Compromise Question

Croctotheface added this text as a potential compromise:

"Media Matters hired numerous political professionals who had worked for Democratic politicians and other progressive groups. Hillary Clinton advised Media Matters in its early stages out of a belief that progressives should follow the lead of conservatives in forming think tanks and advocacy groups to support their political goals."

He further asks:

Setting aside sourcing and wording [...] would something in the vein of my original quote [the one above] be too much weight given to Clinton, just right, or too little?

I ask all participants to respond in bullet-point, with a brief explanation for the reasoning behind their answer. Xavexgoem (talk) 23:13, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

• I think it's 'just right as evidenced by the amount of editors who so quickly agreed to it. It mentions Hillary but almost in passing and certainly doesn't give so much weight that it makes her role seem like more important then it is.