Talk:Diomedes

Diomedes in Chaucer's "Troilus and Criseyde"

Of course, this isn't authorotative at all, as Chaucer was simply working off of (and frequently revising) the works of writers who came before him, but Diomedes does indeed play an important role in this work. After Criseyde (here the daughter of traitor, gone to Greece) is exchanged with Antenor (a Trojan soldier who later turns traitor, as well), Diomedes swoops in and essentially cuts Troilus off from his long-distance love affair. Troilus later stabs Diomedes, who earns Criseyde's heart with the wound. Anyway, I'll check back here at some point, if you guys think this is interesting/useful I'll try to write something more informative.

Plagiarism?

http://diomedes.biography.ms/ - 207.239.12.200 I took out various things in this article that were mistaken.

It was Philoctetes not Palamedes that Ulysses/Diomedes went to fetch. Palamedes was already dead by the machinations of Ulysses.

I took out the whole Hesiod "Little Iliad", because he did not write it is ascribe to Leeches. Anyways in the Little Iliad, Aeneas gets captured and given to Achilles' son as a slave. Check out the Post Homer Epic cycle fragments, the Loeb classical Library has it.

I will also edit out his death, because according to Larrouse's Encylopedia og mythology, I think it was the name (i'll check it) he does get killed by the doings of Danaus, but I will get the proper source before making that edit. I will also come back to check out the whole article. Ronsin1976 20:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

New Changes

I have entered almost all the information I could gather about the Hero. Please correct any mistake you find.

Dr. Yasas Bandara. 18/07/2007

"Biography"

This is all presented as if it were a "biography" of the hero, divorced from any sources. The sub-sections show a series of themes that gather round the mythic figure, which provides a better framework than a "biography". --Wetman 22:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Too much information?

It's comprehensive and I apperciate that, but I'm not sure it's necessary. None of the other articles on mythological greek characters contain this much information, including those who were much more important than Diomedes. I think this article needs to be chopped down to a bit.--24.255.171.220 (talk) 19:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The article also seems really biased. Do all sources build up Diomedes like this? Most Greek heros I'm familiar had notable flaws, but Diomedes sounds like an ancient example of a Marty Stu.--24.255.171.220 (talk) 19:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. too loaded of words on Diomedes and also unsourced. I have edited it back to an older source that seems a little less bias

I have studied ‘The Iliad’ and this article certainly has LOTS of information about the character ‘Diomedes’. I feel it’s alright because 1. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia article 2. It’s very helpful in academic level studies and 3. Only a few people know about this important character. A lot of people have seen Hollywood movies like ‘Troy’ and believe he never existed.

Also there are HUGE articles for comic book characters like Superman, Hulk, Spiderman etc. they serve no academic purpose whatsoever.

I agree that the article is long (longer than that of Hercules) but it gives information that no other article can give. For an example, it contains a nearly complete list of cities founded by the hero.

As for the claim that Diomedes is less important than other heroes, that’s subjective. Only a handful of Greek heroes ended up as immortals in Mythology.

I disagree that it is devoid of sources. It mentions 1. The Iliad 2. Other epic cycle stories 3. Apollodorus 4. Fall of Troy 5. Aeneid. It’s difficult to find written material related to his life before the Trojan War and his life in Italy. Therefore, several different versions are mentioned for one incident (ex- killing Palamedes, betrayal of Aegialia, fate of Palladium)

Also, Diomedes was not an immaculate hero. Some readers may feel like that because the larger portion of this article is dedicated to describe the character according to the epic ‘Iliad’. In that epic, the hero is nearly flawless. The few notable flaws are- attacking Apollo, disregarding Athena’s advice, refusing to turn back in spite of Zeus’ anger, showing no mercy to enemies, ‘the end justifies the means’ attitude etc. All these are mentioned in the article.

If you resort to other sources, you can find many questionable/dishonorable acts – luring Agamemnon’s daughter to death, helping Odysseus to murder a fellow Greek, stealing the Palladium etc.

The article is not biased because these flaws are clearly mentioned. To give an example, Diomedes never insulted dead bodies of his enemies (like Achilles) and he never scolded dead enemies (like Agamemnon) in the epic. But the article mentions a story where he throws the dead body of Penthesileia into a river. This is out of character and this story is not supported by the sources like ‘Fall of Troy’ or ‘Epic Cycle’. If the article is biased, why mention it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.43.111.182 (talk) 04:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The section on After the Fall of Troy is certainly confused. --MWLittleGuy (talk) 22:09, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

His uncle?

"His paternal uncle Heracles (...)"

Ehm, his father was Tydeus.--80.141.195.41 (talk) 15:13, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

References

I added some citations (references) here and there. Please correct any mistakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.115.29.235 (talk) 18:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

A bit biased maybe

This article seems really biased to me. It builds Diomedes up too much. And also I'm not sure about some of these statements, like I don't recall him "vanquishing" Hector twice. I thought only Achilles was better than Hector.Excelsus (talk) 03:09, 5 August 2010 (UTC)ExcelsusExcelsus (talk) 03:09, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

He defeated Hector in Book8 (Zeus saved Hector) and in Book11 (Hector was stunned by the blow but managed to run away and save his life). This article doesn't 'Build' Diomedes. The problem is Hollywood garbage like 'Troy' build up Hector waaaay too much and completely forget heroes like Diomedes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.115.29.234 (talk) 17:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Diomedes was one of the few Greeks heroes who was worshiped as a divine being. You can't 'build him up' anymore than that, can you? Also the philosophy of Iliad doesn't care who's the better warrior. Fate is superior to all. No matter how good Diomedes is, he was never able to kill Hector. Hector was fated to be killed by Achilles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.129.232.212 (talk) 17:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

In fact, Diomede and Hector nevert fought each other ! During their first encounters, there is no fight (Zeus intervene and Diomede withdraw). And during the second, Diomede only throws a spear at Hector's head (which is stopped by Hector's helmet). So there isn't any actual fight between them. And Hector has killed more heroes than Diomede did. Though I have to give credit to Diomede for never having really fled or being afraid (even Hector and Achilles are scares at some points : Hector when facing Achilles, and Achilles when attacked by the river).

I don't know if it's biased, as much as it reads like a comic boy fanfic rather than an analysis of Hellenic mythology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dondoolee (talk • contribs) 22:29, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

"All had then been lost and no help for it, for they would have been penned up in Ilius like sheep, had not the sire of gods and men been quick to mark, and hurled a fiery flaming thunderbolt which fell just in front of Diomed's horses with a flare of burning brimstone."(Samual Butler's translation) - Both Hector and his driver could have been killed by Diomedes. Zeus prevented it. These Hector fans just cannot realize that Diomedes is a far better warrior. In Iliad philosophy, fate is superior to all. Diomedes or Ajax could never kill Hector. Hector was always fated to be killed by Achilles. So, it really never mattered who the best warrior was. Remember the only thing Diomedes say about Achilles; "he will fight"-it was fated to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.129.233.229 (talk) 13:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, Hector ran away and hid himself among the other Trojans in the second encounter. Diomedes fought in the two biggest wars in ancient heroic age tradition; Epigoni war and Trojan war. He probably killed more than Achilles.