Talk:Historicity of the Iliad

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typoe

"Historicity the Iliad" makes little sense on its own. 203.214.112.124 11:46, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

doh. it was a typo I spread via copy-paste. dab (ᛏ) 13:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Historicity

"The more we know about Bronze Age history, the clearer it becomes that it is not a yes-or-no question but one of educated assessment of how much historical knowledge is present in Homer. The story of the Iliad is not an account of the war, but a tale of the psychology, the wrath, vengeance and death of individual heroes that assumes common knowledge of the Trojan War to create a backdrop. No scholars assume that the individual events in the tale (many of which centrally involve divine intervention) are historical fact; on the other hand, no scholars claim that the scenery is entirely devoid of memories of Mycenaean times: it is rather a subjective question of whether the factual content is rather more or rather less than one would have expected."

Did a grad-school psych student write this? It makes little sense, and violates NPOV.

209.6.162.130 12:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

THE HISTORICITY OF THE ILIAD?

Maybe I missed the section whereby we are informed with information concerning the discovery of the first and I suppose,the only ancient written copy of the ORAL tale? We are told that the ORAL version supposedly was the only source for a couple of hundred years, yet no one can tell us whom or who first is credited with placing this "15,000 Line" missive onto parchment, etc.! It would be a very time consuming effort if the literate author(s) actually had to listen to the ORAL version, and write down the words! Someone, somewhere, and at sometime, had to have done it? So, if we know the answer, then why is it not mentioned in the article? Does anyone really know any clue to the first recorded written version of this EPIC TOME? In just what century do we place it? 69.92.23.64 (talk) 15:38, 2 December 2010 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes[reply]

"planification"

What the heck does "planification" mean? It's not in the dictionary. Something like "steam rollering"?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.216.98.16 (talk) 14:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Aeneas survives?

The Homeric tradition that every inhabitant was killed or enslaved finds no confirmation in the archeological record.

Is this really the tradition? I thought in the original epic cycle Aeneas survives the war and rebuilds in Anatolia. I also seem to remember Antenor surviving. john k 02:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Book 20 of the Iliad Poseidon saves Aeneas from death at the hands of Achilles for the specific reason that Aeneas is fated to live beyond the Trojan War and his descendants will rule over Troy. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. So we should probably tone down the supposed "Homeric tradition" that every inhabitant was killed or enslaved. john k 10:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I deleted the paragraph that contained that statement, since it didn't seem like there was anything worth saving in it. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Athens?

I see that Athens appears on the map of Homeric Bronze Age Greece, but I thought that Athens was no where mentioned by Homer. --Michael C. Price ^talk 22:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Athens is mentioned in Book 2 of the Iliad, in the Catalogue of Ships. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And Menestheus, the leader of the Athenians, is mentioned several times. john k 00:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks, my mistake. --Michael C. Price ^talk 03:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gilgamesh

I am not aware that the Epic of Gilgamesh is "striking similar" to the Iliad. I have put a citation needed tag on this statement. --Michael C. Price ^talk 13:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ask and ye shall receive. It might be good to actually describe some of the similarities between NE myth/Gilgamesh and the Iliad at some point, but the proper article for that is probably Iliad, not Historicity of the Iliad. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'd be interested to hear more, and I'm sure others would as well. May I suggest Troy#The_Iliad_as_essentially_legendary? --Michael C. Price ^talk 17:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I too would like to hear even a few attributes of the EoG that are similar to the Iliad. Are these quite general similarities (men are heroes? whereas in earlier depictions on amphoras, women could sometimes have adventures...in both regions. Is that the similarity? Some of the deeds of heroes in both stories were attributed to goddesses at an earlier date...see Glory of Hera, Philip Slater, - Oxford Press, I believe. --LeValley 03:42, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Our essays

The article needs a Notes section and referenced statements with some pithy quotes, to help get away from our essays on the subject and move towards reports on the published development of argument on this topic. --Wetman 08:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What? not anyone? --Wetman (talk) 11:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anachronism of round shields?

Minor observation, which I realise borders on OR, but might be worth pursuing. Under the Artefactual evidence section, we have:

". . . there are parts of Homer's story that appear not to match a Bronze Age war . . . . Ajax's tower shield makes sense in the context of the shields depicted in Bronze Age artwork, which are very tall and either rectangular or shaped somewhat like a curved hourglass. However, most of the other shields are described as circular, which is an anachronism, as far as modern scholars can tell."

However, on the Phaistos Disc, which apparently predates the Trojan War by something like 3 centuries, one of the commonest symbols (No. 12) is invariably interpreted as a round shield. Either this interpretation is wrong, or the Disc is badly misdated (or fake), or round shields were extant in the Eastern Mediterranean area in the Bronze Age, somewhat before if not actually contemporary with the (presumed) date of the War.

Note that although the Disc was found on Crete in a Minoan palace (under apparently datable debris), it's considered possible that it may have originated elsewhere, such as Anatolia, due to the non-Minoan style of some of the symbols depicting human figures. Minoan art, I understand, itself usually depicts hourglass/figure-of-eight shields.

Further, the Shield article states:

"During the 14th-13th century BC, the Sards or Shardana, working as mercenaries for the Egyptian pharaoh Ramses II, utilized either large or small round shields against the Hittites,"

and their own article Sherden begins:

"The Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates are one of several groups of "Sea Peoples" who appear in fragmentary historical records (Egyptian inscriptions) for the Mediterranean region in the second millennium B.C.; little is known about them. On reliefs they are shown carrying a round shield and a long thrusting Naue II type sword."

This places bronze-age round shields even closer to Home(r) (sorry, couldn't resist!), and suggests that the claimed anachronism of the Iliad's round shields is insecure. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 07:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Spiderman

Future historians will doubt the existance of New York because of Spidey's accounts. At least they will have got Gotham and Metropolis right...--Draco ignoramus sophomoricus (talk) 17:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Late Bronze Age Collapse

Why no links to the Bronze Age collapse of which the fall of Troy seems to have been the most northern example? John D. Croft (talk) 19:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No reliable sourcces? Which fall of Troy anyway, the city identified as Troy 'fell' a number of times. Dougweller (talk) 20:20, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]