Talk:Armenian genocide

Archives
Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm|^(talk) 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

Archives:

• Archive 1 (1068 kb/1.068mb)
• Archive 2 (108 kb)
• Archive 3 (648 kb)
• Archive 4 (103 kb)
• Archive 5 {113 kb)
• Archive 6 (327 kb)
• Fadix Analysis: Fadix Analysis (575 kb)

• A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars

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POV

I don't see why we need to have the POV tag here. The article doesn't assert the views, all the disputed parts are labeled as "alleged," the article talks both about the Turkish and mainstream point of views--I suggest the POV be removed. If someone objects, they will need to make a good case.--TigranTheGreat 12:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Because it doesn't say what Turks allege Armenians did? We should then also put the other side of the story and then we can remove the POV.

Aren't all of the Armenian contributions to Ottoman civilization covered in the Ottoman Empire entires? (are these really just alleged contributions?) If not perhaps these need to be modified to properly reflect Armenian contributions first before we move on to just why Armenians became the victims of the dominant Ottoman Turkish elements of the society. Oh and BTW - only Turks (perhaps aided by some Kurds and Circassians and some Balkan and other various Turkics - commited Genocide [against Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians])...--THOTH 05:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I am neutral on this topic and after reading the article, I think the NPOV tag needs to go. Of course many people of Turkish origin think this whole topic is not NPOV but the way the article is written is neutral. You don't need every single Turkish allegation and rationalization because they are addressed generally. Take the tag off please. Pschemp | Talk 06:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Do the Nazis get to push their POV about the Final Solution, about how the Jews "violently resisted the peaceful breakup of the ghetos", "slipped intelligence to the Allies", "manipulated the war through their evil global conspiracy", etc? I think we should have a formal vote if Fadix or an admin won't do the job. John Smith's 08:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

As I said previously, I don't take the responsability to remove it. This should be decided by the community by a vote. Fad (ix) 15:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with users Pschemp and John Smith above - article is most politically correct as it stands (too much so IMO) - and certainly should not have a POV lable on it any more then the Holocaust article should. Outside of (so-called) scholars who explicitly are funded by Turkey or who have very obvious ties to Turkey there are very few - if any - scholars who truly deny the Armenian Genocide and would dispute any facts or positions contained in this article. It is most shameful that some Turks are so fanatically blindly nationalistic that they cannot accept the facts in this case even though the world and scholars are pretty convinced concerning what occured. It is also most sad that we are held hostage by this denial. I argue that this article needs to be entirely rewritten and reorganized to more resemble that of the Holocaust article. It requires more background explanation and discussion however as their is less common familiarity with the events and circumstances of the Armenian Genocide and of the Armenian experience in the ottoman Empire prior to the Genocide then there is of the Jewish experience in Germany prior to WWII and the events leading to and comprising the Jewish (and other peoples) Holocaust enacted by the Nazi Germans in WWII. Likewise I am in favor of covering a variety of events and circumstances concerning conditions and events affecting the Ottoman Empire prior to the leading up to the Armenian Genocide which I feel are important for a proper understanding and context of this event. --THOTH 13:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I have created a poll, so please vote at the bottom. John Smith's 15:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Hats on the photo

By the way, has anyone ever looked on the first photo at the article page?Hahah!If you look, you will see the Russian hats on the heads of Ottoman officers.

Look carefully.Have Ottomans ever used the hats like those?

Strange, apparently this website [1] about the Ottoman Empire does show pictures of those hats. Conspiracy perhaps??--MarshallBagramyan 18:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I am suspicious of that picture myself, I have removed it a while back I think, but it was reintroduced. The victims were probably either Russian Armenians soldiers serving for the Tsar or Russian soldiers, who had their uniforms taken off and their victors dressing of those uniforms as it was coutume there. I may be mistaken, but still I believe there are better references pictures to have this one included, I don't believe this picture represent victims of the genocide. Fad (ix) 23:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Again for this article, i can just LAUGH. Please make some DEEP research and after that try to write a NEUTRAL article, i say it to main articles writer.

Reşit, from Turkey — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.56.38 (talk • contribs)

You guys are bunch of idiots. The officers are Russians that discovered the bodies and apparently took pictures. No turk would like to take a picture and document the fact.

HAHA...........

NPOV tag Vote

Ok, this is a simple vote that should last no longer than seven days. A simple majority should suffice. No anon-IPs please. The question is:

"SHOULD WE REMOVE THE NPOV TAG FROM THE ARTICLE?"

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support. I believe that this article does not simply push one side of the argument and could actually stand to be more critical. John Smith's 15:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support.--MarshallBagramyan 18:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• I retract from voting due to my intense participation on this article and my involvement. Just one comment, those who will vote should do it not based on what they believe to be true, but rather if they think that this article is clearly POV. There are some POV issues, but I believe they are minor, people should vote if some minor issues are serious enough to keep the POV tag or not. Fad (ix) 18:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support. As my comments above. I am not involved in this article in any other way, so I feel like a pretty neutral source. Pschemp | Talk 22:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support I think that the article is more or less objective, and there is no need for disputes. Diegon

• Support. The article presents both sides of the story, and complies with both the WP:NPOV and Undue Weight policies, the later stating that when a position is held by a minority, it has to get a proportional focus in the article. --TigranTheGreat 19:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support As it stands now, this article seems very NPOV, compare it to similar articles if you want to see what I mean. The article in general has been stable for quite a while now as well.--Eupator 19:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support. --RaffiKojian 22:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support the Armenian genocide is solidly established and the objections of many Turks are clearly represented in the article. Some injustice to the Turkish POV is done by not recognizing that Turkey did not always deny the genocide, however the warning represents quite the opposite view. Progress has been made on the late recognition of the genocide by Turks. If asked, I am willing to elaborate on the early Turkish views of the Armenian genocide, with references. Overall the article is NPOV. gidonb 23:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

++VOTING CLOSED++ There has not been one dissenting voice on the vote after several days, so I am removing the tag as of now. John Smith's 23:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It appears to me this page is completely dominated by those who have a stake in this matter, and naturally this sort of vote will garner such a result. In order to have dissenting voices, dissenting parties would need to dedicate themselves as eagerly as those for whom this matter means so much. The fact that this page is stable points not to the truthfulness of many of the claims, but to the commitment of those who have made this page their calling; this article is not, in any shape or form, "objective," and does not at all "present both sides of the story." Blissmiss 07:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

It appears to me that you are a brand new account that has done nothing but edit this page and the article and thus are most likely a SOCK and have no say on wikipedia. pschemp | talk 07:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am new. Hello, how are you? I believe you also were new at one time, were you not? I have read the page of the founder, and he encourages anyone to edit articles, regardless of seniority. That is the basis of Wikipedia. I have not edited this page, by the way; I have merely added my voice. You have edited my above contribution, however, and that is not polite. Please refrain from doing so in the future. Blissmiss 08:21, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Screaming in bold is not polite, fixing format issues is expected on WP and considered polite. Making unfounded accusations of bias is impolite also. When you add anything to a page you make an edit, thus above this is your edit to this page. I think you misunderstand the meaning of edit as used here. As of this point, ALL of your edits are to this article and its talk page and it appears you created this account purely for inserting accusations of bias into this topic. Of course you are allowed to do so, but anyone is also allowed to completely disregard your opinions. I will do what it takes to maintain the format of this page in a readable manner and will not refrain from doing so for any reason. pschemp | talk 08:38, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I am aware of what edit means; I have noticed the word "edit," to be clicked on to make a change. I was making the distinction of adding a fresh entry on this talk page, which is technically not an "edit" to my mind, versus making changes in already existing material.

We have a good difference in opinion. Anyone who has the capability of looking at this topic in an impartial manner knows what I am referring to; examples abound from some of the talk pages that I have read here. Many of the sources in this article are not of the variety a genuine historian would accept. (Such as undocumented photographs, fixed trials conducted under enemy occupation, and one professor of notoriety of whom even Hilmar Kaiser has concluded that "serious scholars should be cautioned against accepting all of Dadrian's statements at face value.") As Guenter Lewy has written recently, "a large number of Western students of Ottoman history reject the appropriateness of the genocide label for the tragic fate of the Armenian community in Ottoman Turkey. This list includes distinguished scholars such as Roderic Davison, J.C. Hurewitz, Bernard Lewis, and Andrew Mango. Ignoring this formidable array of learned opinion, most Armenians and their supporters among so-called genocide scholars assert with superb arrogance that the Armenian genocide is an incontrovertible historical fact."

That is exactly the case here. An exclusive club has been formed. Anyone who arrives with a different perspective is immediately attacked, as you have demonstrated, "with superb arrogance." You have stated clearly that someone as myself should "have no say on wikipedia," as if you have the right to be the judge and jury.

Writing in capitals is impolite; the occasional bold imprinting to distinguish a message from what is obviously the run of an exclusive club is very much justified. But I realize if I exercise my right, two minutes later, someone with a highly unfriendly attitude and single-minded determination will impose her dictatorship. In order to persist, one must possess the time and will. Those of us who are not as emotionally invested cannot last very long. This is exactly why the above "vote" is invalid, when only like-minded people are present to vote. Blissmiss 10:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Although particpants seem to be in many cases from Armenian and Turkish backgrounds, I disagree that this discussion is controlled by an exclusive club of insiders. I am new to this discussion, have a somewhat different take on the genocide than the participating groups and have so far received only positive feedback. I do believe that in the dynamics between the groups certain aspects are apt to be overlooked. gidonb 11:12, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, I must be Armenian because I believe this happened. Of course. There are those out there that deny the holocaust too, but that doesn't mean they need to be exhasutively included or discussed on the holocaust page. If you think those experts are so worthy, then go write a separate page about their views on the "non-existing genocide". This page is not the place for it. The article makes it very clear that some people disagree with calling it a geneocide, no more is needed here. It is the nature of political issues that someone always disagrees. We've heard that here before, nothing you say is new. Again, if you believe that strongly about it, go write your own article. You are starting to sound like a sockpuppet of certain anon contributors below who are upset because they didn't get their way either. pschemp | talk 22:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we would delete such an article since it is a POV fork. The point is that the Armenian genocide is hardly contested outside Turkey and widely accepted as a historical fact. Immediately after the genocide and more recently it is partially accepted in Turkey too. Both the history of the genocide and the fact that many Turks and few others have reservations is well covered in the article. Therefor it is NPOV. We also cover the recent recognition of the genocide in Turkey, but are still weak on its early recognition. gidonb 22:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for intimating that blissmiss was a sock, as that has been shown not to be. My other opinions stand. pschemp | talk 05:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Gidonb, your sentence above does not fit the real facts on the ground. The genocide is not accpeted and characterized as a big lie in Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Kazakistan, China, Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Tataristan, and almost all muslim countries. There was one who said that Leabon pseudo recognized the alleged genocide, there is no credible source to approve that. No official gov't wweb site of Lebanon talks about the alleged and lie armenian genocide. As to other countries except 15 mostly christian countries no country has recognized the genocide. Even the US characterizes it as a massacare. Your armenian love or fundamentalism has closed your eyes to reality and real facts. Try to be more correct. --71.195.182.195 09:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The countries you listed are hardly up-standing members of the international community, especially as many of them have committed State-sponsored violence against their citizens, while denying it. Indeed a lot of these countries seem to have some sort of "gentleman's agreement" where they cover up for each other in the international community whenever one does something wrong. And Muslim countries are obviously going to take the side of other Muslims. When you have countries like France, Canada or Scandavian nations saying it's a lie then there might be some credance to it. But all you've done is mention places that have a questionable human rights record themselves. Not a good idea. John Smith's 12:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Several of these countries have themselves massacred segments of their population or committed genocide. Armenian love and fundamentalism do not describe me, politically I am closer to Turkey if already. Genocide deniers will say anything to justify their extreme minority positions. gidonb 13:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Gidonb, yes it does and it does well. The countries that recognize the alleged and lie based armenian genocide are the biggest genocide doers and now they with zealot woudl like to balckmail the Turkey and label it as one of them as well. Becasue pseudo for them it would reavealing that they weren't alone in the world. The biggest genociders are France, Germany, Italy, and UK. Don't forget that 3 million died with direct inaction of the British in Bengal in 1940s. The germans killed 6 or more Jewish. I especially see the activeness of the German as they did such a wrong thing and now try to label Turkey as genocider, as this will give them the psychological releif that they are not so horrible. You just might be a German or European who have been the biggest and largest genociders in the world and nothing will clean this.

So as we see the countries that recognize the alleged armenian genocide and armenian lies are those countries which have done the biggest genocides in the world. See who are recognizing the alleged armenian genocide. --71.195.182.230 17:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Anon, funny you would mention Germany. Hitler in his final solution was inspired by the Armenian Genocide. He refered to it personally and specifically. He also had the ashes of the architect of the Armenian Genocide sent to Turkey, where this man was added to the Mauseleum of the Fallen Heroes and lies until today. All this is on record. gidonb 17:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Gidonb, the armenian loved and faked words of Hitler is nothing more than the myth as the armenian genocide allegations. You know that better than me. Also would like to note that UK hasn't recognized the alleged armenian genocide. In other countries they were done mostly bby some group of parlamentarians, who are most likely anti muslim, anti Turk and or christian fundamentalists. So as yo u see the armenians millions are going to toilet as the flush of water. I woudl suggest those armenian diaspora people to spend this money for armenians who are dieing in armenia from poverty. It would be interesting for you to know that half of the armenian population has already left armenia. So funny that most of armenians as you gidonband and lovers of armenians for this or another reason always try to relate the armenian genocide to notorious people in the world therefore trying to justify their position. So far these are Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini. God known who will be tomorrow. May be the Pope Rome himlself. Haaaaaaaaaaaaa:)))))Ramil --71.195.182.195 19:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Also I don't know why Armenians want to hide that one of the biggest genociders in the world was Armenian. Lavrenty Beriya was an armenian and the right hand of Stalin. Indeed the entire massacre of intellectuals and anti-soviet people had been directly managed by Lavrenty Beriya, not by Stalin. He has killed by some estimations 30 million people in the entire former Soviet Union. Do you the see the parallel between the tendency of Lavrenty Beriya to commit genocide, and armenian in Turkey in 1915 who killed half a million Kurds and some Turks.

Why you don't tell the truth? WHy you don't tell that one the biggest genocider in the world was Armeninan, Lavrenty Beriya. His genocide may be exceeds the genocide committed by Hitler. --71.195.182.195 00:03, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Beriya was not Armenian, he was a Georgian Jew but the only person who was in the high ranks of the Communist Party at that time who was Armenian was Artem Mikoyan and he aided in policy making, not deporting and starving peoples. Where in the world did you get this erroneous info anon?--MarshallBagramyan 03:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen one credible source on the Jewishness of Beria. Where did you read that he was of any Jewish decent? According to most sources he was the son of Mingrelian peasants from the Abkhazian region of Georgia. The sources that claim he was Jewish seem to be from a very specific kind. Striking enough some postings on anti-Semitic forums also deny that he was Jewish. Of course, since Beria did not have many papers and the few he had were partly forged, much can be claimed about him. Beria was one of the major criminals behind the "Great Purge" (greatest after Stalin) and responsible for the death of many Jews. By the way, a well known hoax claims that Stalin himself was Jewish. Truth is that Stalin studied to be a priest at a seminary before he turned to communism. gidonb 01:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I lived in the Soviet Union and books like those were viewed unfavorably by the USSR government and hence, were read in secret. It was an omnipresent view held by the people in the USSR. The books didn't have any hint of anti-semitism, they simply stated that Beria was of Jewish descent and undeniably, a corrupt and ruthless "politician" in the Stalin's government, the one who did his dirty work. And Stalin for a fact, was definitely not Jewish. --MarshallBagramyan 07:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Very true but some Soviet books were against Beria for political reasons or rehashed information. To the best of my knowledge it has not been included in a credible source. Of course I would be interested to know if such a source existed. It is not in the very detailed Lavrenty Beria article and would be if there was something to it. It also is not proven he was not a Jew. In any case Beria did not study to be a priest. gidonb 08:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

I dont think it is neutral to place "Further information: Denial of Armenian genocide" wherever an opposing view is expressed. You are in effect telling the reader "this is denial". --A.Garnet 18:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

"Denial" doesn't mean what you are denying is true. It means denial of a view. The focus in this case is Armenia Genocide. Someone who says that it didn't happen by definition denies it. --TigranTheGreat 19:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Denial is a loaded word - it is usually associated with refusing to accept something which is true, it gives the article a slanted tone, that one view can be dismissed as denial. If there are no objections, I will remove both the links. --A.Garnet 17:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

No, quit removing, that is what you're good at. You have already removed something on the bases that it does not fit in the article and deleted an entire section. There will already by an entire article regarding Denial of the Armenian genocide, because the position of denial of the genocide exist and cover more than half of the works published about the topic. You will hardly find any work covering the topic which does not at least have one chapter about what is termed denial. It is the least one could do to have at least a little link to another article with that name, and the fact that it is largelly underused in the article is clearly misleading because if we were to give the space on denial that is covered in the academia we would have to give half of the space of the current article. Fad (ix) 19:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

This is why I took the article off my watchlist, it seems it is ok for someone to go and add the denial link without discussion, but as soon as I introduce it into discussion, I get a personal retort off you. I have made it clear before, that this article does not present the Turkish POV in a sympathetic tone as Wikipedia requires, but instead slams it at every given opportunity. On top of this, we are now placing a link called denial wherever an opposing view is expressed. This is just another instance of the discreet presupposition running throughout this article that the Turkish view is wrong. At least we have moved on from when the Turkish government position was simply entitled denial! (which if i remember you once again opposed). --A.Garnet 20:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

What? What? What? Look dude, you have deleted an entire section about the denial while there was a clear opposition for you to not do it, and I accepted it to not start out a conflict. You have deleted sentences because you considered them showing the Turkish government in bad light and when I have reintroduced it you have deleted it as per talk page, when I have justified its inclusion and in the last part of the discussion you haven't even answered me. I repeat, what is termed as denial, should take half of the space of the article because half of the time or even more, when the Armenian genocide is reffered to is to point of its denial. This is what it is called, I already used Universalis which is owned in part by Britannica, which call it as such. In fact, the only encyclopedia that I know of that does not do this is Britannica which is the record holder on the numbers of times that it changed its entry about the Armenian genocide and it was always after intense Turkish pressures. Britannica has even mistakes in its statistic table about the entry which were directly pasted from the Turkish foreign ministry. They were even forced to remove their maps of historic Armenia which was a reprint of National Geographic map, and Tabib whom is a member here in Wikipedia was one of those who wrote for the removal.

The Turkish government position already states "Those who support the genocide theses state that Turkey is denying its past and accuse it of suppressing international attempts to recognize a genocide". But for some this does not dismiss the Turkish view enough, there has to be links placed at every mention of an opposing view that indicate Turkey is in denial. This is what I am opposed to. --A.Garnet 17:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Imagine that we were condemned for a crime you did not commit, would your refusal to accept it be termed denial. I don't see how denial is to be changed, it only say that the Turkish government reject the term. [2]

Also, as I said, this term is generally attached to the Turkish government position, it is a notable term, in fact it is more associated to the Armenian genocide than any other cases, including the holocaust. Fad (ix) 18:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, you are the one refusing the include the whole Turkish version, because when I do it, you claim it does show the Turkish position as bad light. But it is TRUE that Halacoglu, Ataov all those working in the Turkish historical society which is owned by the National Assembly(AKA government) claims that it was actually the Armenians whom commited genocide against the Turks and that even figures of over a million killed by Armenians were presented. I am ready to include those, but you will refuse, actually the Turkish version you want to be included is YOUR Turkish version not those published. Even thought it is supported by a good portion of the Turkish population, we need publications for it to be included, but the only publications that one could find are those by Halacoglu, Ataov or those published by the Institute of Armenian studies founded by the Turkish government aimed specifically to deny the Armenian genocide. Those publications are the official versions, the official version is Halacoglu's 56 thousand Armenians perished and that Armenians killed a half a million Turks, but when I have included those you wanted it to get deleted. Is it my fault that the governments version destroy its own credibility? The same government that accused nearly every Western country of genocide? But of course you also opposed to the inclusion of this, as well as your probably inclusion of the claim from the Turkish government that the Armenian genocide is an international lie and that Western democracies position is controled by the Diaspora.

My source for the Turkish governments position was taken from their embassy website. It made no mention of 56,000 Armenians dying, therfore I had no way of knowing the signficance of the Halacoglu claims on the Turkish governments position, I removed it because it was clearly no longer the position of the Turkish government. Now, as for you accusation about Turkey accusing other countries of genocide, I had the support of both El C and Tony Sidaway in removing that sentence. It was an attempt by you to misprepresent the words of individuals as part of a greater hyprocrisy by the Turkish government. And I noticed that you had no problem reintroducing it recently without discussion. --A.Garnet 17:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

And my source from the Turkish government position was taken from the books published by the Turkish governments personals which are the bases of what there is in the ministry website. Halacoglu is the president of the Turkiish historical foundation AKA society, which was founded since under the Kemalistic regime and is attached to the General assembly, he is hired and pied by the government and right now is the minister of the Armenian genocide 'allegations.' If you want to know his position and his claims of Armenian casulties or that you want a reference from his books, I will gladly footnote his claims, I was going to do that already. As for your claim that you got the support of Tony and El C, you are misinterpreting their acts the same way that you have tried to assassinate my character by claiming that I was already banned by an Administrator, when you knew that it was a mistake because my ban was lifted soon after I was banned. El C revert to vandalism to your own version is not a support, you have mislead in your edit as if there was an agreement when there was none. Tony made a remark but has not followed when I have answered. As I already said, the Turkish government had accused pratically every Western nations of genocide as an answer, and I don't even include what happened here with the Israeli minister of education who left his job after he had attempted to include the Armenian genocide alongside with the Holocaust in school curriculums. Fad (ix) 18:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

You are the one who continually makes remarks on mine and other peoples character, and you accuse me of character assasination?! Your first line in this disucssion was "quit removing, that is what you're good at", you introduce your arguments by telling other users that I have history of removing material, you call my discussion with you Bullshit, you raise your voice as to be patrionising, and now you accuse me of deceiving people over El_C's support. For your information, I was not going off his revert, but off his reply (towards bottom) on his discussion page. If I mistakenly took that as support, then I apologise to El_C. With regards to your block, it came as no surprise to me after witnessing how uncivil you can be (which I actually warned you about), that you judged it as a mistake seems to be your interpretation, If i'm not mistaken the admin unblocked you on good faith. --A.Garnet 20:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Garnet, my accusation about you removing materials is founded and you know it, not only on this thread but elsewhere, including Ataturks entry, which the critics have simply been removed, while your accusation against me was simply untrue and you knew it. You raised the issue of my blocking when you knew that the decision was reverted soon after it was implemented, but since you raise it again and still maintain that, know that the one who blocked me apologized in private and while I promessed to not talk about that, that you still don't drop that I am forced to bring that. From all the arbitrators, administrators involved in that cases only you claim I was uncivil, only you witnessed that, I guess you see what you want to see. Also, you recieved a warning yourself by an administrator and I have never fallen that low to discredit you. This was the caracter assassination I was talking about, you pointed that to picture me as someone who could not behave and was blocked therefor. As for everytime I have used the term BS they fitted there, you were deleting sentences what was I to do of that? Comming to El_C, I don't think it is a bright thing to interpret somemones remark, when your interpretion of it in light of my reply which BTW you haven't answered to, doesn't make much sense. Prime ministers, presidents etc. are very relevent more so when there is no written on stone Turkish government position and that from the same logic I could delete all that section from the same basis. When I brought that you have skipped replying to that, and that accusing various countries of genocide is generalised. Fad (ix) 01:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

No it is not founded, and i am getting fed up of having my character attacked each and every time I come into contact with you. I didn't bring up your ban, your brought up your ban to again accuse me of being underhanded. The reason i ignore most of your ranting is evident from this discussion, look at the size of it! I have no interest in taking part in 1mb of discussion with you every time I want to edit an article. You even make no hint of apology in calling other peoples contribution bullshit, but instead think you are fully justified! You accuse me of basing El_C support on a revert, I show you otherwise, and you give me some nonsensical reply to avoid losing face. Now show me this warning i received from an administrator which you have been so modest as to mention, other than a 3RR I received in my early days I dont know what your on about. --A.Garnet 01:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The above message of yours is the kind of I recieved everytime I requested explainations for your deletions. And yes, BS was a term I used, and I was harsh pratically in every interactions we had, but this isen't surprising, since our discussions generally revolved around your deletions when you were adviced not to delete, and I wasn't the only one being harsh with you there when you were deleting materials..., more particularly in other articles.

Also, I don't remember myself generally calling other peoples contribution bullshit, in fact I don't even remember using this term but rather BS and it was directed at your justification for deletions in a talk page, therefor it could not be about your contributions in articles.

Comming to your claim that I was trying to save my face. I don't see how, what do you want me to do, appologize for my mistake over your comment on El_C answer? Fine I appologize, on the other hand, I don't see how me pointing to the fact that your argument doesn't support what you claim or rather suggest it support is to save my face.

And lastly, me reffering to your warning was not to discredit you, unlike what you did in my cases, I just pointed that I will never fall that low and reffer to your warning on the middle of a discussion, please don't put words in my mouth to then answer them. This is my last reply regarding this subject, since it turned out to be unconnected with the current article. Fad (ix) 03:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Not to say like the official publications such as the classical book Le peuple arménien et les tentatives de rendre en servitude le peuple turc by Inayetullah Cemal Özkaya and Gurun who attempt to even question the existance of the Armenians as a people from the logic: "If there is no Armenians, how could an Armenian genocide exist?"

Another thing is that the Turkish government position there, is your position since you control that section and consider what is the Turkish government position. In short, you have already removed an entire section regarding the genocide, and like it or not the term denial is here to stay when the term is used in the very large majority of the works each time the question of the Armenian genocide is mentioned and one of the reasons why I have a problem to remove the neutral tag is because without any inclusion of the denial this article is misleading and does not cover it as it is in reality.

I dont 'control' that section. I only take an interest in it because it is only place in the article which represents the Turkish view. If I'm not mistaken there were previously about 3 lines in the entire article which treated the Turkish view and you deemed this as incorporating the Turkish view and therefore making the need for a separate section redundant. And I find it surprising that your idea of making the article more neutral is to emphasise the Turkish view as denial even more. And heres me thinking you were going include the non-Turkish academics who dont support the genocide thesis (which you said you were going to do no?). --A.Garnet 17:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The Turkish view is recorded only on publications not on what you believe as a Turk. I am ready to include Gurun, Ataov, Halacoglu etc. who actually represent the official version, and it was you who named that section to represent the Turkish government view, which is not blindly to be equated with the general Turkish population, when the last poll in Turkey about Armenians showed that the general population has no clear idea of who exactly are Armenians and how big is Armenia. As for denial,I have opposed many Armenians to introduce their POV, but I will oppose to delete the term denial, because this is what is the Turkish government position, and had the genocide not happened it would still be termed as denial, because the Turkish government refuse the official position which is the thesis that a genocide did happen. Fad (ix) 18:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

And since we are at it about things to remove, I see that no one had any problems beside me with the inclusion of websites such as armenianreality.com or armenian-genocide-lie.com when neither the authors are unknown(under proxy), nor it is an official position nor from an organization, and above everything had I included a site such as Turkishlies.com or Turkishreality.com you would have been the first one to jump on it to remove it, but lucky you I would have supported you if such a thing was to happen and that I would have removed it myself. By Nooo!!! You will always try removing sentences that are official positions and even others which you do not deny the existance(like turkish officials accusing other nations of genocide they were even to pass a resolution accusing Armenia of genocide in Xojali). Fad (ix) 23:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

By all means remove those websites, you obviously have a poor judgement of me if you believe I have the intention of propogandising articles. I only believe in the fair representation of views, and when i say fair I dont mean equal as some people have suggested below, I mean fair as in not being dismissive. It is now obvious that the chances of me editing this article without getting an instant revert are next to zero, not because of my edits, but because of the strong prejudice against any Turk editing this article.

You are misinterpreting what I've said, my point is that you leave obvious mistakes and do nothing about, but will oppose any changes on the Turkish government section. Fad (ix) 18:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Also this is to User:TigranTheGreat, please dont manipulate the vote by informing your buddies, why dont you message some Turkish people as well? --A.Garnet 17:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Because I don't have to. Informing is a necessary part of making informed decisions and has absolutely nothing to do with manipulation. None of the persons I have informed are my buddies, in fact most are neutral administrators. My act of informing actually resulted in one of them getting involved to make the article more neutral, so I say it had positive results for everyone. --TigranTheGreat 17:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Fadix, I believe the Undue Weight policy requires to represent views not in proportion to how widely they are covered, but how widely they are *held* (actually I learned this from your discussions on other talk pages). "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each. ...Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views". [3] The denialist position is a minority--the vast majority of scholars outside Turkey support the Genocide (save for some historians up-for-purchase), and the general public knowledgable with the events agrees that it was a Genocide:

Most scholars outside Turkey agree that the killings are among the first 20th-century instances of "genocide," (http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/4024.html)

The Armenian genocide is not the first 20th-century genocide, Herreros were eradicated by the Germans before that. The Armenian genocide on the other hand is the first modern genocide, which is different. Fad (ix) 18:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I am almost sure that you noticed it, but I decided to mention it anyway. The article says "amont the first." As such, it is accurate. By the way, many scholars, perhaps justifyably, regard Abdul Hamid's massacre of 300,000 Armenians in 1890's as part of a 20 year long genocide campaign (1894-1923) in 4 stages: 1890's, 1909 (Adana, 30,000 victis), 1914-18 (1.5 million), 1920-23 (by Kemal, 300,000, mainly in Cilicia, West, and Caucasus). In that case, it does become the first genocide of 20th c. --TigranTheGreat 17:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Plus

A legal analysis commissioned last year by the International Center for Transitional Justice in New York concluded that sufficient evidence existed to term the killings a "genocide" under international law.(http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/4024.html)

(Thanks to a joint research by me and my good buddy MarshallBagramyan :) ). In sum, just because the denialist position is covered widely, doesn't mean it should be covered here as much as the majority position.--TigranTheGreat 10:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I find A.Garnet's position ridiculous in its entirety. The article already gives too much emphasis on turkish denial, way too much. I don't see a section for neo-Nazi position in the Holocaust article. Add all you want in an Armenian Genocide denial page. It should not be here, as all denial of the Holocaust is in the Revisionism page and not in the main article.--Eupator 21:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Eupator. Go make it its own article. Pschemp | ^Talk 02:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Me too. Deny is the most common and accepted word for a negative response to a charge: "I deny these charges." To say that "usually it denotes a negative meaning" is completely unwarranted. It also fits the most common definition: Deny: To declare untrue; contradict (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deny). As such, the term shall stay.--TigranTheGreat 09:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Fadix, is there a rule that prohibits those who are involved in the article from voting? You are an editor and I think your vote is both legitimate and important. The President of the US can cast a vote for himself, I don't see why can't you.--TigranTheGreat 10:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

No there is none, the decision of not voting is mine. Fad (ix) 16:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

This is unfair and can not be the solution to the disputed and questionable genocide allegations. I am taking this issue to the arbitration. There is voting, nodboy is informed, couple of armenians and you remove the tag giving the illusion to people that the issue is not disputed. The tag should stay there and should remain there. Otherwise, I am taking this to the arbitration. Let me know your response in couple of days. --ramil 21:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I allowed 5 days for the voting. But not one person that didn't want it removed came along in that time. There was plenty of opportunity for people to read this page. And how was I supposed to announce it other than to put the message here? I think the fact that you're stereotyping everyone that voted as being Armenian shows your bias.

You're the only person to show up here to want the tag, a full week after the vote was started. I was never going to leave it longer than a week and you still would have lost the vote, so the tag stays off. John Smith's 22:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Several non-Armenians, including neutral administrators, participated in the voting process or assisted it by taking a neutral look at the article and suggesting modifications. Francis' contribution was very valuable in gaining informed, neutral consensus. The process was legitimate, and the tag shall stay off.--TigranTheGreat 09:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

My armenian or pro-armenian friend John Smith. If you call the week as plenty of opportunity, my response to you is that it is nothing more than a perverted understanding of opportunity. Even unimportant elections in US towns take 3 months and that with notification to eveybody.

Also disputed issues should have the disputed tag. That is the rule of the Wikipedia. You can not address it with 8 votes:-)))) 8 votes and that is more than enough for you to lift the tag. My friend I would suggest you to learn more about democracy, elections and voting. Be more tolerant and don't try to manipulate the lack of voice form another side to achieve your dirty puporse of cheating people on alleged and never happened armenian genocide lies. If you want to learn more about armenian lies, I have put the link below in the armenian lies section, you can see it. I am taking it to the arbitration unless you bring back the tag. Rest assured. --71.195.182.195 13:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you, as an anon, you don't have that right. Second, Wikipedia is not a democracy. Please review the Wikipedia policy before lecturing others. Finally, no personal attacks....WP:NPA. This includes racist comments such as the Armenian lies comment. If you persist in doing this, you WILL be blocked from editing Wikipedia. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 18:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

A disputed article does not need a tag. Otherwise 100% of political wiki articles would have tags.

HAHAHAHA, yeah go to admins and ask for a 3 month vote. I'm sure they'll back you up ^____^ John Smith's 21:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks like he already tried here. Too bad it was incomprehensible.pschemp | talk 21:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Lol, thanks for the link. Did you see the bit about me and "other Armenians". Oh yeah, like there's no one outside Armenia that supports the discussion on that page....... :p John Smith's 23:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, that's very nice. Evidently I've become an Armenian too, just by voting to remove the NPOV tag. pschemp | talk 14:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Changes after removal of POV tag

A growing list of countries, as discussed below, have officially recognized and accepted its authenticity as Genocide.

This should probably be reworded. I think the article is not particularly biased in content, however it is slightly biased in tone - I think that it could do with a copyedit by a more impartial user before removing the tag. If you want me to take this up I would be willing to attempt it, although as prior warning I have been accused of being Armenian! :) FrancisTyers 10:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like an idea. Please post the rewording here first and then we can all be happy about it. Pschemp | ^Talk 18:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I had a problem with this sentence myself. Fad (ix) 18:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Ask Fadix, he has invested much in the article--if he has no problem with it, neither do I. I am strongly against removing the word "denial" for the reaspons explained elsewhere, as are most editors here. Don't worry about being called Armenian--your neutral track record and reputation speaks for itself.--TigranTheGreat 09:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Further note: It is believed that twenty-five major "concentration camps", why is concentration camps in scare quotes? - FrancisTyers 10:38, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

No idea. Well maybe because some people object to the use of that word, but it should either be a different word or take the quotes off. Pschemp | ^Talk 18:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The term is used in maps of the camps, including the Germans during the war as well as concentration camps books(I noted one such work in the footnote). I placed it in scare quotes because Coolcat would delete it so the scare quotes were left intact. Remove the quote if you think it should. Fad (ix) 18:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Scare quotes are discouraged by Wiki guidelines much like weasel words (WP:AWW)--words like "claim, allege," which pretend to be neutral but contain hidden POV. We shouldn't keep them just because someone keeps removing the entire phrase--NPOV is non-negotiable policy. They need to stay away.--TigranTheGreat 09:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Instead of editing this article and getting in peoples way, I've copied the article to User:FrancisTyers/Armenian Genocide provisionally. I've adjusted the lead, if people agree with these adjustments and think that it is an improvement then I will continue with the rest of the article. If you disagree with any changes I've made, let me know here and I'll think about if its worth me continuing. - FrancisTyers 01:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

So far so good. Pschemp | ^Talk 06:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've been through the whole thing, see: User:FrancisTyers/Armenian Genocide. I would say that there are still certain "issues" with the text, but I can't fix them as I don't know enough about the subject. One thing that it is sorely missing is inline citations. Stuff like It is believed that most of these were soon executed with a citation would be bad enough, but without a citation shows a significant bias. Who believes this? The discussion about "deportation" is misplaced, as is the comparison with Japanese during WWII, the modern term I think would be internally displaced person. If you think its worth me continuing I'll go through and add fact tags to the parts that, in my opinion, are in dire need of citation. Feel free to edit the page in my userspace if you think I've cut something important. - FrancisTyers 18:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The lack of citations is an issue of citing and not POV. I don't think the article needs to suffer from a glaring POV tag just because of that. I believe adding fact tags should suffice. Fadix is more knowledgable on this, but I believe "deportations" is the most common term used in literature with respect to the "displacements." Plus, it is somehow accurate, since we are talking about moving people from one part of a multi-part empire (Armenia, i.e. the homeland lf the people) to another part (Syria).--TigranTheGreat 19:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I would agree that the citation is a matter of {{verify}} and not {{neutrality}}, however the two are interlinked in some way, for example it is POV to say It is believed that most of these were soon executed, it is not POV to say Scholars at the Kyrgyz State Institute of Genocide Historians believe that most of these were soon executed (purely random example). The deportation thing doesn't really matter, just that whole paragraph is clunky. Although this is not necessarily a problem for the NPOV tag. Have you considered RfC'ing this to get other editors to look it over? - FrancisTyers 19:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I copied in the version from my talk page and then reverted myself. My revision is here. I would encourage people to check it out and if they feel it is an improvement to merge the diffs. - FrancisTyers 17:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Good except for these things:

(Idiocy Removed)

Thank you for working on this!Pschemp | ^Talk 04:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually if you look at the diffs, all of those were in my edited version :)) I reverted back to the previous version expecting that someone would disagree, I just wanted to leave my edited version in the history for people to compare. - FrancisTyers 11:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh silly me...I looked at the diff but the wrong way around. Sorry! It makes much more sense now. Pschemp | ^Talk 15:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, I can see how it would be confusing :) - FrancisTyers 16:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I am sick of Turkey denying Christian masacres in Anatolia.

Even Hitler once said in reguards to the Jewish Holocaust, "Who remembers the Armenians?" It was to say that no one acknowledged it and he felt people would do the same for the Jewish question. This is wrong! This autrocity commited against Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians must be acknowledged. Turkey needs to cede territories stolen from Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. They even discriminate against their own co-religionists, the Kurds. They are not immune to justice. They must make right the wrongs of the past to move forward in peace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sargonious (talk • contribs)

Please stick to the content of the article. Fad (ix) 16:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I just can laugh to this. "needs to cede territories stolen". Are you a kid or something like that. Please make some research about America's history. This article is based on guesses and emotions. It was war times, Russia had attacked to ottomans and Armenians supported them, killed turkish villagers. One more thing, what is israel doing today? Is it genocide? Jewish soldier kills muslim kids. What is this? How can you name it. War? Please if you don't know anything about a topic, i mean deep knowledge just remain silent.

Reşit, from Turkey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.56.38 (talk • contribs)

How many genocides do you know which were not commited during an armed conflict or a war. Most genocides happened in armed conflicts, if a crime commited during wars or conflicts could not be termed as genocide most of the genocides currently considered as such would not have been the genocides they are said to be. Also, please both of you continue this discussion on your respective userspaces and stick to the content of the article. Fad (ix) 19:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

As far as Israel is concerned Palestine never existed. It was always a part of Greater Syria as was Lebanon. The greedy Arab governments couldn't stand to see non Muslims get their own country. Look at the bloody civil war in Lebanon as an example. Sargonious

Armenian Lies

[removed comments not related to the article in question, personal attacks, and uncivility - FrancisTyers 17:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)]

Eagle, Hi, you'll note I've just removed your comments on this article, if you are going to take part in Wikipedia discussions, please focus your attention on the article in question, not the politics surrounding it. If you wish to discuss politics there are many other bulletin boards around the internet for this purpose.

Please take the time to read, WP:CIVIL and WP:NPOV before you decide to contribute again. Thanks! :) - FrancisTyers 17:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Francis, may be you become more civil and tolerant to dissent voice in this heavily armenian biased and dominated web site. The entire isssue of alleged and never happened armenian genocide is political. You recommend me to learn more about Wikipedia policies or rules, but I would recommend you to learn more about politics and regional politics and history before you delete something or argue against of it. Also learn to think critically. Not everythink that armenian zealots say on this page can be true, can they? Unless you are armenian, then it is another issues? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.195.182.195 (talk • contribs)

Please outline where I have been uncivil. As far as I am aware I haven't. I'm certainly tolerant to dissent, if you read my contributions you might see that I've requested inline citation and described the article as biased in tone. I stand by my actions however, if you are not willing to take part in reasoned debate regarding the content of this Wikipedia article and if you persist in making personal attacks I will remove your comments, as I would remove the comments of anyone who was acting in this way. I appreciate that this is an emotional subject for you but I think you would have more impact on the content of the article if you made reasoned arguments backed up with good sources rather than personal attacks. - FrancisTyers 16:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

OK anon contributor above - lets say this article was concerning the Holocaust - an event to which the Armenian Genocide has great parallels (well at least most anyone [and certainly most all scholars of history and genocide in particular] would agree but only certain folks of Turkish descent and/or affiliations might not). Lets now recast your comments in this light and consider what it is you might be saying here - and who in other circumstances might be saying such things -

"XXX, may be you become more civil and tolerant to dissent voice in this heavily Jewish biased and dominated web site. The entire isssue of alleged and never happened Jewish Holocaust is political. You recommend me to learn more about Wikipedia policies or rules, but I would recommend you to learn more about politics and regional politics and history before you delete something or argue against of it. Also learn to think critically. Not everythink that Jewish zealots say on this page can be true, can they? Unless you are Jewish, then it is another issues?"

I hope that contributors and readers of this encyclopedia can understand what type of person you are when you claim that the Armenian genocide is "alleged and never happened" - is just "political" and when you claim that those who believe that it did occur and that all the eyewitnesses and facts regarding such are stricly the work of "armenian zealots" we can truly see the value - or lack therof of your input on this issue. --THOTH 14:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi my armenian friend. I don't blame you for your unconditional belief in the never happened happening of the pseudo armenian genocide as this has been and is the official line of the armenian church which has used the genocide to mobilize armenians aroudn one issue, chosen Turks as a scapegoat (not without reason I will come to the reason later)and prevent their assimiliation within western societies. They have definatly been successful in this.

However, the alleged armenian genocide has no parallel to the Jewsih genocide that happened in late 1930s and 1940s. The Jewsish were persecuted by Germans just because they were Jewsih, to acclaim Jewsih belongings and without any ressistance and uprising from Jewsih. They were killed without discrimination. In the case of the armenian issue, what we see is the systematic fighting by armenian militia and fundamentalist groups against Turkey, killins of hundreds of thousands of Kurds and Turks and the real threat to the very existence of Turks and Turky in Anatolia. This has happened thanks to the flow of millions of francs and dollars from the West and the Russian army supplies and you know this better than me. Then Turkey takes measures, kills milita and deports armenians who are used by Western empires to weakenn Turkey and kill Turks, Kurds and muslims.

NOw the Turksih arhchives are open and anybody can see them. You can find the list of killed Azerbaijanis, Kurds and Turks by armenian milita and terrorists in this official web site of the Turksih arhicves department. http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/ The number is roughly around 500,000. how this can be compared to Jewsih genocide, which unconditioanally happened, there are facts and these were documented and everybody knows it. But somewhow it happens that only countries which try to use the pseudo "armenian genocide" issue are chrstian states, not a single mostly muslim country has recognized this alleged genocide, where the Jewsih genocide is remembered in all coutnries includin mostly muslim coutnries such as Azerbaijan, Turkey, Usbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tataristan and etc. These are facts my armenian friend, not lies or falsifed facts presented by christian missionaries and the armenian church. Why you don't tell the world how you have killed 500,000 Kurds, Turks and Azerbaijanis. The list is available from the web site I sent to you, not to mention the barbaric killing methods of armenians. --71.195.182.195 19:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The above statement does injustice to the islam, both by its very nature and by not being factually accurate. Lebanon has a moslim majority and recognizes the Armenian genocide. gidonb 00:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

who cares Lebanon? We say "ottoman archive is open" and you say "Lebanon recognize Armenian genocide"!

To not forget that both Iran and Syria were to recognize it before Turkey pressurised them. Fad (ix) 02:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

We have 12 neighbor country and all of them is enemy. Please don't say me Iran and Syria!! They are supporter of kurdish bloody terorist organization PKK. Ofcourse they will support everything against Turkey. It is just political.

awkward sentence

"Although it is generally agreed that events said to comprise what is termed the Armenian Genocide did occur,..." seems a little bit awkward. Any ideas how to fix it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.253.115.104 (talk • contribs)

Perhaps it should go "Although many countries have recognized the events of 1915 to fall under the United Nation's definition of genocide, Turkey remains adamant and rejects the notion that the Young Turkish government had established a state-wide policy dedicated to the extermination of the Armenians" or somwhere along those lines. Although I agree, the sentence structure is poorly written. --MarshallBagramyan 06:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Removed pending rewrite

There were more than 900 thousand Armenians who had been recorded as refugees from Ottoman Empire and surviving WWI. What is called "estimates" above are based on a CLAIMED number of 2.5 million Ottoman Armenians being alive before WWI. After subtracting remaining (about) 1 million Armenians from the CLAIMED number of 2.5 Million Ottoman Armenians we are left with "1.5 million Armenians were killed". Turkey has never denied a large number of its Armenian population lost their lives, from all kinds of reasons including famine and murder. But, Turkey also dares to say, so did Turks and Kurds.

An excellent source on Ottoman Armenians, going through official Ottoman population records is a book by American historian Prof. Justin McCarthy, titled "Muslims and Minorities: The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York, New York University Press, 1983. A summary can be found in (http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/yayinlar/yayin1/4-McCarty(65-85).pdf)

WWI ended in 1919, for Ottomans, when they surrendered. As you notice, the title of this section reads "1914 to 1923". Why 1923? Because the Armenian propagandists would love to extend their claimed sufferings until the foundation date of modern Turkish Republic (1923). This should be another example on how far the Armenian side can go by "playing with numbers."

Perhaps this could be rewritten and included, perhaps it should be moved to the denial page? - FrancisTyers 11:54, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think terms such as "Armenian propagandist" etc. fit in a Wikipedia article, also the claim of more than 900,000 is unfounded, McCarthys numbers which are considered to be overestimation find out 880,000 when the League of Nations figure of refugees in Soviet borders also included Armenians outside of the pre-war Ottoman borders, like those that left after the Alexandripole attacks, Kars and the other territories that the Ottoman penatrated and that the Armenians there were not Ottoman Armenians proper. Also, I just hope for the sake of Wikipedia that this AhmedCosar who registered is not this Ahmed Cosar the famous newsgroup spammer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_Cosar if that is so, we will have serious problems, and since he edited the other page about Ahmet Cosar, I'm afraid it may be him. Fad (ix) 16:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Archives

Someone please tidy the archives. Today I:

• moved Armenian Genocide/Archive 6 to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 16 - which was definitely a needed move, though the destination name may not be the preferred one
• restored talk:Armenian Genocide/Archive 6 from a blanked state - which may not have been necessary.

-- RHaworth 12:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

not sure what's going on here...I archived and thought that all the old ones had been merged into the existing ones so I should use the next blank exisiting archive (6). Who did the archiving before and what is with all the blank ones?Pschemp | ^Talk 18:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, all fixed. Old archives had been merged already, got an admin to help me sort it out. (Thanks User:Sean_black!) pschemp | talk 07:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Picture

I'd really like to see this [4] picture used on the article. 141.217.84.59 18:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Bad quality picture and not well sourced, there are other pictures that should be included, not this one. Fad (ix) 21:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Al those pictures in the article are fake. Look at the first one, soldier are wearing a different type of hat. The Ottomans weared fez's, this is manipulating the history. And if you look at the image were a man is lying death on the ground, you will notice he's wearing typical Turkish dress. And if you look realy good, you will notice on the picture with skeletons that one of the skulls has a fez. Regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.224.35.24 (talk • contribs)

Missing information

In article, we should add the number of killed turkish people. For example Kars , A city at eastern part of Turkey totaly killed by russions and armenians army. We are not talking about small vileges as you, we are talking about cities. Should we add guys? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.107.250.216 (talk • contribs) — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Onuronur (talk • contribs)

Um..No. Pschemp | ^Talk 22:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

One question. Kars was part of Russian Armenia before the Turkish nationalist troops annexed it. Where are the Armenians of Kars? It is true that Armenians burned villages in Kars, but this was after most Ottoman Armenian casualties were recorded during the Armenian genocide and when the nationalist troops invaded it, there was about nothing left of the Armenian population there. Fad (ix) 23:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Question - Does the Holocaust article list the number of German casualties at Stalingrad? --THOTH 22:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Ofcourse not. There was no jewish army. In German genocide, Hitler was thinking that his race was the best race. In turkish history things are different. There was a war. Big countries was attacking to Ottaman empire. So A crowed army was needed. The age region in ottoman army was 16-50. So every person who can carry gun was supposed to join to the army to defend the country. And even women were carring guns to the battle area. What was happening is : Armenians refused to join ottoman army and fougth aginst us. Most of the turk were killed by them. They supported french and russion army. And many armenian gangs attacked to innocent people. I am asking this innocient question : Why dont we add to this article turkish lost ,the numbers from turkish side? (By the way what is this unsigned thing? Somebody wrote unsigned below my question.)erhan 20:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

1) There was no Armenian "Army" prior to 1917 (and its actions were almost exclusivly in defense of Yerevan province which was then part of greater Russia and later in defense of the first Armenian Republic from attack by Turkish troops after WWI - when we speak of the Armenian Genocide we primarily speaking of the events surounding the round up and murders of Armenian civilians under orders of the Ottoman Turkish state that occured in the 1915/16 period. 2) Any issue of Turks killed by Russians is a matter of concern when discussing military events of WWI - much as we might discuss German casualties when talking about battles such as Stalingrad in WWII. Neither are directly associated with either the Holocaust or Armenian Genocide itself respectively. 3) Antolian Armenians responded to draft call ups and enlisted in the ottoman Military where they were forced into work gangs and eventually slaughted. Many Armenians did resist being called up and hid or otherwise fled. Many Turks and Kurds and such did the same. It is no secret that gangs of Turkish and Kurdish deserters terrorized villages in the Eastern provinces during the war acting as bandits. Some Armenians did as well. However this whole claim of Armenian "gangs" creating so much havoc during this period is highly overblown (instances were small scale and localized at best) and is the result more of Turkish anti-Armenian propoganda at the time then any real issue. Much of the stories told by Turks now of relatives being killed by Armenian "gangs" relates to revenge murders that occured by Armenians who escaped the Genocide and fought Turks after 1917. Even "monuments" to such things in Eastern Turkey today that i have visited attest to this fact. 4) there was in fact armed resitance by Jews in the Warsaw and Lodz ghettos in WWII as well as Jews who fled Germany and the other occupied nations and joined the armies of those opposing Germany - much as many Armenians did...does this equally justify the genocide commited against each of these peoples?--THOTH 04:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

This is just your imagination...

Battle of Sarikamis (1915).. By the way somebody changed the article.. It was written "Armenian army". Anyway I saw it there. erhan 16:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Erhan, this opinion is covered in the article: More recently, lower figures of Armenian casualties were presented by Yusuf Halacoglu, the director of the Turkish history foundation. In his said calculations, he estimates that a total of 56,000 Armenians perished during the period due to war conditions, and less than 10 thousand were actually killed. In his other research, he maintains that over 500,000 Turks were killed by Armenians. It is a quite comprehensive article. gidonb 18:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with you, erhan. Turks killed by Armenian partisans has nothing to do with the planned murder of Armenian civilians. If you want to talk about Armenian uprisings, talk about it on the relevant WWI page. But don't try and deflect attention away from the brutality of what happened to the Armenians by talking about that sort of stuff. Ref women fighting. Perhaps they fought to protect their homes from Turkish soldiers that were planning to rape them - who knows? But it still isn't relevant. In any case, what gave Turks the right to tell Armenians what to do? You're just condoning brutal imperialism if you're implying that if a subject race doesn't do what the ruler says it's legitimate to wipe them out. Turks were imperialists, so they had no right to butcher Armenians - they wouldn't have had the right even if they were other Turks. John Smith's 18:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you are talking second part of the story (After the war, relocation period). "what gave Turks the right to tell Armenians what to do?" I didnt get you. Armenian and turks were living together in the same land and were being ruled by ottoman empire, so ofcourse Turks had the right to tell Armenians what to do. You mean ottoman empire requested different things from armenians as compared to turks? A facist request? What about raping turkish woman they were also woman there were no difference. These kind of things are happening in all war in history and nobody knows if it is true. You mean that turks were facist and hating armenians and raped them? So article is generally about second half of the story. Relocation of Armenians. erhan 20:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

So you're advocating imperialist slavery? Imperialism is wrong, ergo no imperial master has a right to tell conquered people's what to do. Or are you telling me that if Turkey was taken over tomorrow you would just do as your new colonial masters said? "Go fight our wars for us, slave!" It was bloody obvious that some Armenians would rebel when order to fight & die in the Turks' war. Murder of innocents can never be justified. John Smith's 00:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

John, Still in Turkey ,military service is compulsory. If you are turkish citizen, you have to do it. Otherwise you will be arrested. It means, in turkey, armenians joins the army :). Anyway OK they had the right to not join the army. I am not saying anything for this. The point that I can not admit is "They attacked us". In adana, Folk espaced to mountains because armenians were killing them like a game. You are drawing a picture of innocent armenian people and cruel turks and you are doing assumption about turks like "raping armenian womans??". Actually turks were so busy at Gelibolu.(1915 - 360.000 soldier died from turkish side- 300.000 died from english and anzaks)erhan 17:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I've recently read Holocaust deniers claiming that Germany was much too occipied and overwhelmed by a multi-front war to waste such effort to systmatically round up Jews just to murder them....the Armenians rounded up and sent marching to their deaths or who were otherwise brutally killed by the Ottoman Turk CUP regiem were equally innocent as the Jews that the German Nazi regiem rounded up and killed. That you cannot "admit" these things has more to do with your blind refusal to accept documented facts and the truth because of nationalistic reasons and being force fed denialist propoganda then it has anything to do with a truthful version of reality. --THOTH 04:28, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand you why you compare with germans. Armenians killed 500.000 turk I dont remember Jews did the same. (Keep in mind that total population 15 million) And ottoman empire didnt command to kill armenians. Is there any evidence that ottoman empire intended a genocide? Ottoman empire was "sick man of the Europe" even there was no regular army. And you compare it with germany which had the best army and decided to rule the world. I congratulate you! erhan 16:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You are most incredibly misinformed - what can I say? Most sad. First this claim of 500,000 Turks killed by Armenians is at best just laughable. I believe that discussions of the pityfuly fabricated documentation which are used to support such figures has already been extensively discussed and exists in the archives here. Consider this - in an interview apearing in the Turkish paper Radikal on Oct 9 2000 Turkish scholar Halil Berkety answered this question the following way: What were the losses of the Muslim population in that area during this same period? They may be 10,000 or 20,000. But it's not a question of `They only killed a few, and the Ottomans killed a lot'. The issue is as follows: The activities of the Armenian guerrilla bands were generally localized, small-scale, and isolated. But for hundreds of thousands to die, there would have to be a population of this size, which couldn't be attained merely by wandering around the villages and hamlets. In addition, it's deceptive to turn the matter into a question as to whether or not Enver and Talat Pasha gave a written order to the `Yesil' or Catli of the day. They never did so, and no such document will ever be found. In this regard, the witnesses of the day are extremely important. There is a huge body of eyewitness accounts and visual material concerning the Armenian incidents that never reaches the Turkish public. Turkish public opinion is essentially ignorant of what the people of Germany, England, France, and America see and read. There has been much discussion here already of CUP/Ottoman Turkish intent to commit genocide on the Armenians - and of course there is a great body of scholarly evidence and eyewitness testimony which supports such contentions. And there can be no comparison between the massive state sponsored campaign to wipe out an entire group of people and the actions of some disorganized Armenian "gangs' who may have roamed about the countryside (much as Circassian and Kurdish "gangs" were doing at the very same time and before...) Likewise I should point out (and have recently) the parallels between Holocaust denial and Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide - a great many of the exact same arguments are used - including the fact that each nation was beset by a multi-front war (the fact that each nation was the agressor is never mentioned I should add) and that each nations could not spare the resources for genocide...yet somehow they did - and we know how in great detail - so such generalities as you make cannot be used to effectively deny what is well known. Lastly your comments reflect your ignornace not only of the Armenian Genocide and of WWI but of WWII as well - particularl concerning the state of the German Army at the start of the war. And the similaritiesbetwen the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide are too numerous and great for you to deny such based on your pathetic gibberish. --THOTH 06:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Some further exerpts from the Oct 9 2000 interview of Halil Berktay that should be of interest (concerning orders to kill Armenians) - Berktay: At that time there were 1 million and 750 thousand Armenians living in Eastern Anatolia. The deportation order issued by the ruling military triumvirate was drawn up so as to include all the Armenians in the region, without exception. These things are documented in writing. There was no mention of massacres or slaughter. The provincial governors and garrison commanders were directed to deport the Armenians to the region south of Turkey's current borders. However, it's clear that, in addition to these official orders, separate, non-written orders were given to the most rapacious members of the `Teskilat-i Mahsusa' (`Special Organization'), who worshipped violence and were not bound by adherence to any normal moral code. For the Armenians to be killed? Yes. Historian Taner Akcam has demonstrated this in a very sound way. There was on the one hand a legal decision and implementation, and on the other another mechanism entirely that proceeded in an illegal manner. --THOTH 06:26, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Many Turks died from the brutal regime, and the Ittihadist should take most of the blame. The Ittihadist even issued an order condemning any Muslim who may hide Armenians to death without being trialed, if the Armenians were brutal murderers, I wonder then why the Ittihadists would need to issue such an order to stop them hidding Armenians. Would you hide people that would butcher your family? Fad (ix) 22:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Ň

Guruns 2435

I verified, it is indeed 235 in the English version.

Upon this instruction of the Ministry of the Interior, 235 people were arrested in Istanbul. This day, 24 April, on which the Armenians hold demonstrations each year claiming it is the date of the massacre, is the day when these 235 people were arrested.

I always thought the Turkish version was not exactly the same and therefor trusted those sources using Gurun's book Turkish version as references [5], [www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/24041915/index.html], [6], [7]...

But the official Turkish version has been presented by Esat Uras and is indeed 2,345 (Uras E., Tarihte Ermenliler ve Ermeni Meselesi, 2nd ed., (Istanbul, 1976), p.612). This figure is also in other Turkish publications, like Cem Akaş article, who quote Dr. Heinrich Pudor in Belgelerle Ermeni Sorunu; Genelkurmay, Ankara (1983); p.168. [8], but it seems has been replaced by 'soldiers' in the English version, can anyone check if it is present in Guruns Turkish version and that the translation like in the cases of Uras work?

In any cases, this number is present in Turkish government websites as I have shown above, I will replace the source with Uras. Fad (ix) 19:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I see from reading some of the above you had a large hand in composing this article. If you trust "Turkish government websites" so much, then your entire article needs to be revised. It is obvious 2,345 Armenians were not all arrested on April 24. Lepsius confirmed the 235 figure in 1921, and Peter Balakian exaggerated only a little with 250 in The Burning Tigris. Let us refer to your partisan sources [9], Tessa Hofmann and Taner Akcam, for what may appoximate the truth: "From April 24, 1915 hundreds of Armenians were arrested... According to the Turkish scholar Akcam, the total figure of arrests is 2,345." (In other words, 2,345 may be the total of all, "from" April 24 and not "on" April 24.)

If an English language version of a book is available, I believe it is only fair that you refer to the English version. You did not do so with the Gurun book. This is an English language site, and the capacity to check foreign sources is beyond the ability of most. Blissmiss 08:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Please read the article before your edition, it present both figures, this has nothing to do with if I believe it or not. German records also present figures of 30 thousand Armenians evacuated from the Capital city. It already says several hundreds which includes the statistics in the hundreds, (like the one of 235, or the 300 or even the claimed 600), for those reasons I don't see why I needed to refer to a version that present nothing new to the several hundreds already included there. Also, keep in mind that the Turkish version is the original one. Fad (ix) 17:28, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Another thing, the figure of 2,345 is said to represent April 24, so it can not be said to be representing a total after the increase of 235. You can not try to matching two set of different sources and numbers as if they complet each others, since it would be your interpretation. Fad (ix) 17:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure of the source or applicability of the 2,000+ figure in this case however let me make a few points. On the night of April 24 1915 there was a documented round up of 235 prominant Armenians from Istanbul. These individuals were taken away together (though seperated and sent to at least two different destinations en route). At the same time and on or around this same date - a great number of other Armenian civil leaders and political activists and other prominant citizens were rounded up and taken away in cities throghout Anatolia. Additionally this process continued in Istanbul and other cities throghout the following years until 1918 and Turkey's surrender from the war and the CUP abdication. This policy and strategy to round up intellectuals and community leaders - to severe the head of the nation as it were - is a clear sign that the Turks were planning the "final solution" to the "Armenian Question" - ensuring that even if the Ottoman Government failed in the war (as was looking very likely when these round-ups began) and even if the CUP policy to eliminate the Armenians were not to fully suceed before war's end - the Armenian leadership would be destroyed and the Armenian people would have no voice and no hope of quickly reconstituting and being able to articulate themselves and petition for relief from Ottoman Turkish oppression. Of course the presentation should be accurate in terms of numbers - where exact numbers can be known (and who cares what Turkish propoganda claims other then to know and understand how the Turks attempt to continue the Armenian Genocide through denial and distortion). What is important to convery - IMO - is the reasoning behind this action of eliminating the Armenian leadership and educated inteligencia and leading represetnatives of Armenian culture and arts. The motives of the CUP to eliminate such a thing as the Armenian nation begins with these acts - is made evident by such acts. This needs to be properly illustrated and explained.--THOTH 14:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You are interpreting what those numbers means, but the fact of the matter is that there are many different set of numbers and I decided to present them without interpreting what they mean. Blissmiss, add Gurun books English version, like I told you, if you think it is relevent. Fad (ix) 22:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Not having read the specific source material I don't know what each of these numbers represents - what whoever has put them foreward believes they represent. My point is that the act of rounding up these Armenian leaders (civil, cultural, political etc) was done for a purpose. For readers to understand the Armenian Genocide and how the Turks enacted it - they need to understand the process by which the CUP/Ottoman authorities disenfranchised the Armenian community/nation. These roundups - and the initial round up, arrest, improsonment, torture and murder of these notable Armenians was done with specific intent and purpose. Understanding this and how these acts fit into the larger scheme of enacting genocide - specifically of course the Armenian Genocide - is what needs to be conveyed. It matters not if it were 200 or 2000 - the intent and the result was the same. That scholars of the Armenian Genocide rely on certain records or historical accounts and that Turkish denialists claim otherwise is perhaps another interesting footnote - but in my mind - of lesser significance then properly explaining to what effect these arrests and murders had on the Armenian community - Anatolian wide and specifically for the Armenian communities in Istanbul and in all the other towns and cities where such round ups preceeded deportations of the now leaderless population. Additionally - and this fact also cannot be ignored - is that the Turks very specifically were concerned that the Armenian community be decapitated not only to blunt resistance to the murderous Genocide being enacted - but to ensure that Armenians would remain leaderless and deprived of cultural stand outs for the generation following. All essentail elements to the genocide. --THOTH 00:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

POV Tag removal

Well, after waiting some time after the vote was completed, it seems the voting was successful, and the removal of the POV tag was generally accepted by editors and administrators involved in this page. I would like to congratulate everyone involved here on this occasion--any time a dispute tag is removed, it's a sign of progress for Wikipedia. I would also like to thank everyone who voted and contributed to the process, including to FrancisTyers for his work in tuning the little imperfections of the article to render it ready for POV tag removal. --TigranTheGreat 23:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

No probs, it was important to restore "credibility" in the article. Good job, everyone! John Smith's 00:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah congrats - good job - sorry I missed the vote.--THOTH 04:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

I wonder if it will ever be possible to get a NPOV on this article. The problem begins with the very title: Armenian Genocide. Since the dispute centers on whether one should call this a genocide, it seems that the very first sentence should make it clear that scholars have not agreed on whether this tragic event is better described as intercommunal violence or genocide.

I notice that Justin McCarthy is in the references, but he is not mentioned in the text. Bernard Lewis is mentioned nowhere. These are not minor scholars, their opinion is respected and it matters what they think. We will not achieve a NPOV by ignoring them.

Perusal of the talk pages suggests that many contributors consider this event as identical in nature to the Holocaust. This is an unfortunate association, since it marks those who would try to present the Turkish view of events as similar to Nazis and Holocaust deniers. We must try to understand the Turkish perspective, not unthinkingly condemn it, since only in that way can we achieve a NPOV.

I think the article can be improved in several significant ways, and I have these suggestions:

• An article this contentious should provide a citation for every assertion. As it stands today, the first citation appears in the 11th paragraph. That wouldn't be acceptable even for a sophomore history paper, and it certainly isn't acceptable for something this important.

• In the same way that the articles on religion avoid inflammatory words such as "fundamentalist" we should avoid inflammatory words such as "Holocaust," "revisionist," "propagandist," etc. I see that in fact some editors have done good work in this direction, but clearly more needs to be done.

• There is almost nothing here about the number of Muslim and Jewish casualties. There is excellent published work on this issue--Justin McCarthy might be the best source. We need to show that we are just as concerned about the death of a Moslem or Jew as we are about the death of a Christian.

• A serious article like this should shed frivilous vanity items like "Armenian Genocide in Pop Culture."

Anthon.Eff 18:28, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

McCarthy should definitly be included in the article, as well as an article on revisionism, this is what it is called and McCarthy himself consider himself as a revisionist and he repeated it during the 11th Turkish Congress of History as well as during an ATAA conference. So, I don't see why the term revisionism can't be used when not only its definition apply, but that even those that are called such do not deny doing just that.

Secondly, the inclusion of McCarthy should have more spaces than this article could permit it, and for this reason he should be largely included in an article about what is termed denial as well as the way McCarthy has been answered by the academia.

This article is about the Armenian losses, I don't see why Muslim or Jewish losses should be included here, other communities like the Assyrians who were destroyed are even not included.

As for the citations, there will be citations and a lot of work has been done to make this article close to an OK article.

And finally, I don't think you are getting exactly what the NPOV policy is really about. For exemple, you claim that scholars have not agreed of either or not it is intercommunial violence or genocide... I hope that if you are knowledgeble enought of McCarthy you are also knowledgeble enought that what you said above is simply not accurate. For exemple, one of the two scholars you present, Lewis, before his History department has been financed by Turkey, he termed in his book what Armenians faced as Holocaust, and when Israel Charny and others have requested him to provide the sources of his research that made him change his mind and declare that it was not a genocide, he didn't answer. Even McCarthy recognize that most scholars do support the thesis of genocide, Halacoglu and other such scholars call this thesis an international lie, to be considered an international lie, the thesis in question should be supported 'internationally.'

But there again, the evidences that really made me believe that you don't get what NPOV is all about is when you question the title of the article, for now I will assume good faith, but if you read Wikipedia policies perhaps you will understand why it was an exercise for me to assume good faith there. If you research the Holocaust and Genocide Studies journal, the second most reffered genocide is the Armenian genocide, it is called such, that it happened or not does in no way change the fact that it is an expression that is more than notable, in fact, it is very notable.

And finally, you say that we should try understanding Turkish perspective, this is not the job of Wikipedia, Wikipedia present and do not try to understand perspectives. The Turkish government has a section, also on the introduction of the article its position is made clear, but the Turkish government can not have equal space, or the minority of Western scholars such as McCarthy can not have as much space as the majority position. -Fad(ix)

Hello Anthon, I don't understand the difference between a Turkish position regarding the Armenian genocide and a neo-Nazi position regarding the Holocaust? You didn't elaborate much. In addition, there are revisonist scholars who deny the Holocaust who are ten times more reputable than McCarthy and Lewis combined. David Irving comes to mind. Revisionists can be scrutinized in a separate article, such is the case with Holocaust revisonists. The same should apply here. --Eupator 00:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Eupator - you are correct - both Holocaust and Genocide deniers make the very same claims concerning the victims of the respective genocides. Each dispute the death counts, causes of death and intent and observed actions/eyewitness testimony and each claim that their is a conspiracy of lies against Germans/Nazis (of WWII) and Turks/CUP/Ottomans (of WWI)...each (falsely) claim that genocide claims are propoganda and each uses this - Germans lost more and Turks lost more during this period then the minority groups (ignoring the fact of war and that their nations were the agressors and lost people due to the harsh conditions of war and that minority losses were largely due to very specific observed and documented [horifying] campaigns against them). In each case they ignore the mountains of evidence that the governments sponsored a mass killing campaign - (and against all evidence) claiming that their nations' were involved in all encompassing multi front wars and could never spare the resources to do such a thing - of course they even (again falsely and contrary to all evidence) dispute that there was intent or motivation. The only real difference of course is that most of the world (exept rabid Jew haters) fully accepts the Holocaust and believes that deniers are just either crack pots or haters and confers no legitimacy on such - when inj the Turkish case - denial is state policy and is supported by massive state funds. Of course the Turks of today continue to repeat the state propoganda of the period and teach such to their children and population and the myths are perpetuated. The reason that denial persists on such a mass scale among Turks but not among Germans is that after WWII Germany was totally defeated and the Nazis were ruined and utterly discredited. The Germans were forced to admit their crimes and repent - where the Turks - through Ataturk's nationalistic revolution - managed to hold off the weary Entente powers from exercising dominion over the core of the Ottoman EMpire after the war and stave off attempts at International justice/prosocution (which was an entirely new concept - never before suggested or tried - BTW) - and this is reflected in the final Lussaunne treaty (which BTW the US never did sign) - where the Turks were able to exert tremendous political pressure to eradicate all mention of the Armenians and others killed by the CUP. Likewise the new nationalist government which formed the Republic of Turkey was largely made up of ex-CUP memebers (could anyone imagine a post-war Germany governed by ex-Nazis?). This fact and the particulars of the Republic of Turkey's nation building myth - where Turks were seen (by themselves) as victims of Imperialist machinations against the Ottoman Empire (and with the Armenian's situation neatly fitting into this created history - thus "Armenians stabbed Turks in the Back" and "Armenians were just the pawns of the Imperialist powers out to destroy the Ottoman EMpire" etc) - one can see how they have been able to elude justice and continue to avoid comming to terms with their responsibility in the tragedy of the Armenians. Over the years - as Armenian groups have increased their pressure in both academic and political circles - it has become increasingly difficult for Turkey to out and out deny that the CUP/Ottomans ever deliberatly killed any Armenians - so their denial has gone from outright to the making of (unture and utimatly unsupportable)excuses - such as "the killings were mutual" and "armenians also commited a genocide against Turks" and "it was war and Ottomans never meant to kil Armenians - but Turks died too as the conditions were so bad and maybe some lawless types took matters into their own hands but one cannot blame the government" and "we are not the same Turks - how can we be held responsible" etc - and of course now - with the availability of more balanced information (for Turks - both in print and via the internet...) and with the pressure of European Union acssession - the Turks are modifying their stance again - to admit more - though not any more then they have too. In the meantime Armenians have had to live with 91 years of denial and pain and Turkey's shameful denial - which includes destruction of Armenian heritage in Anatolia and obliteration of all traces of Armenian presence and contributions within the Ottoman Empire (and prior) - and these things continue and are allowed to do so. Thus the tremendous importance that informational sites such as this get it right and refuse to give in to further outrageous and wrong Turkish attempts at denial. No one would stand for it concerning the Holocaust and no one should stand for it here! --THOTH 14:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Article is problematic at the moment

This is a contraversial topic and is most certainly not neutral.

NPOV:

1. The title is a fine one as mentioned above. The NPOV tag should stay for the prime reason reason that the Goverment of Turkey as well as many scholars claim that a genocide classification is inacurate.
2. General attitude is another one. Article line after line is dedicated to "prove" genocide and basicaly. Even oposing view is a "Denial of Armenian genocide" (that means that Armenian Genocide is a fact and oposing pov is a big lie), come on!

Images:

1. many of the images are not even sourced and/or their sources are from some other wiki. What is the copyright status? According to this article the events had taken place in 1919 and that does not make inages immidiately in PD.
2. What makes the corpses Armenian. There are images proven false. How do we know these images are not from an unrelated incident? Another crutial question "Where are the images taken at?".
3. The images captions are also inaproporate. Ex: Image:Armeniangenocide1.jpg, Image:Turkish-genocide-killed-more-than-one-and-a-half-million-Armenians.jpg... Really... Thats a very poor description and umm... not remotely close to NPOV.

I can ONLY agree to remove the tag if this article becomes a Wikipedia:Featured Article.

--Cool Cat^Talk|@ 17:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You don't mind that I completly ignore you and pretend you do not exist? Fad (ix) 17:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Sure but then do not revert my edits as you are failing to ignore me otheriwse. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 17:37, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Cat.

Tough, you are not God. We have already had a discussion and vote - no one raised any objections until afterwards. You can't just wade in now and make demands like "I can ONLY agree to remove the tag if this article becomes a Featured Article". There is no reason why the article cannot be improved, but you have no authority to make demands like that. If one user could insist tags always stayed on articles, anything vaguely historical would always be "disputed". Grow up. John Smith's 17:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... Eeto,

The featured article worthyness is determined by heavy peer review. In order to be a featured article everything on the page must be prefect it is not even just about weather it is well written or not or if it is NPOV.

I have the authority to make any demand just like any wikipedian. I basicaly demand you convince the real wikipedia comunity determines if article is NPOV or not. If you say it is neutral enough to warrant the removal of the tag, this should be the fastes FAC to pass.

It is you who are the Gods dictating this article. Judging from the speed I get reverted, it isn't suprising why this article is so biased.

By the way, you have insulted me yet again. I urge you to stop with insults as if you continue you can be blocked easily for that.

--Cool Cat^Talk|@ 18:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

This won't be made a Featured Article just because it is "neutral". There are plenty of "neutral" pages that never get a look in.

If anyone is doing the insulting, it's you by insinuating that the contributors to this page are not "real" wikipedians. So before you threaten to go to the admins, be careful you don't leave yourself open to an action either. John Smith's 18:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your concers regarding actions that could be taken against me, meanwhile I invite you to civility. A good number of admins are already watching as I consulted them prior to making edits.

Real wikipedia comunity is WP:PR and/or WP:FAC. If you can convince random stratngers that this article is neutral, then I have no reason to object. At its current state this article however would not survive a FAC for certain judging from my experience from FAC process.

Firstly there is systematic bais, people get reverted alsmot instantly.

--Cool Cat^Talk|@ 19:10, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

First of all, you were free to vote on the poll, no one prevented you to discuss with others and get the support to vote. Second of, I refrained myself to vote and tried to not influence people to vote to remove it. And finally, if this article was placed to be a featured article candidate, I would refuse it myself because there still is many work left to get the quality needed. But only a minority of the articles here in Wikipedia are featured, and there are some that are featured that I'd consider still slightly POV. From the non-featured articles only a minority has a POV tag. Furthermore, you still seem to not understand when the totally disputed tag should be added, that the tag about POV should be maintained, I have no comment about that I just accept the result of the vote, but I would totally reject the uses of the totally disputed tag because it does not fit there and that you still push to get that tag there either suggest that you do not understand why it is used, either there is an ill intend behind it. I will not go as far as Thoth there, because I oppose to his position for many reasons, but that every claims in this article are indeed official claims is not a matter of dispute, what is a matter of disputed is if this article maintains a neutral language, but suppose that it does not, this in no way justify alone questioning the factuality. Because Wikipedia policies are clear there, Wikipedia present positions and NOT facts, so the only way that a factuality dispute could emerge is if I claim that someone maintains a position which he does not maintain. If you can present such an evidences comming from the article, I will be the first to add the factuality disputed tag, if you can't just please stop wasting the time of the editors this article is vanadlised and spammed very often and we don't need a veteran to revert because he refuse to adhere to the community decision. Fad (ix) 22:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be implying that each article which is neutral should be able to become a featured article...--Army1987 19:53, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the poster above that the NPOV tag should not have been removed. While I don't think a "totally disputed" tag may be necessary, I feel that the NPOV tag that was here until February should remain for the time being. As evidenced by the continuing debate on this page, I think the neutrality of the tone of the article continues to be an issue for some people. They may not be a majority of the posters here (and therefore may not be able to win a community vote); however, a majority vote is not a prerequisite for keeping or removing an NPOV tag. The concerns with the article that some people still have can be addressed by keeping the tag for the time being. Shelby28 23:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)