Talk:Book of Revelation

My editing of Dating

I also shortened the "Dating" section as well. There were points in the section that seemed as if they came directly from a book. Basically, I kept the main points of the section, and deleted all the unimportant details.Glorthac (talk) 03:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

My editing of Modern Views

I shortened the "Modern Views" section significantly. However, I still think paragraphs 2-4 shouldn't even be there in the first place. I think this because paragraph 1 is about the '3 John's theory', while paragraphs 2-4 are about a 'Redactor of Revelation' theory.

If you like how I've shortened the article, say so, so we can remove that dumb "undue" thingy.Glorthac (talk) 20:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Old Testament origins

I'm trying to start a new section entitled Old Testament Origins of Revelation. This seems a useful topic and it is one which has spawned a small and manageable research literature in recent years. My plan is to have an opening part which discusses the theories commentators have developed, then a section going through each chapter of Revelation (actually it will probably be possible to group the chapters) and show the interesting uses to which John puts his sources. Anyway; that is the plan at present! All are welcome to add to and amend it as it goes along. Coxparra (talk) 18:25, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

There are similarities between the visions of John and those of Ezekiel; the waters in Ezekiel's city are of interest as well as his detailed architectural remarks; there are similarities as well amongst the observations in Enoch to those of John -- particularly in the details of Enoch's mentions of gates and their compass -- those have resembled to this reader, something of Stonehenge. 69.69.21.99 (talk) 18:03, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Can we expand upon the interpretation sections?

The interpretation section only explains the beliefs of various denominations in broad terms, like the Catholic Church teaches amillenialism. Well, DUH! I'd prefer for the interpretation section to explain the interpretations in detail, like: "The Catholic Church teaches the first seal and the Rider on the white horse as Christ who has conquered and is conquering through the Holy Spirit and His Church."

This is probably what people are coming to wikipedia to figure out, anyway. Who would only want to know something in broad terms?Glorthac (talk) 18:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Two improvements

The first one was about Jerome relegating the Apocalypse to a second class. I checked the source, and it was an encyclopedia. I got the encyclopedia, found its information, and all it said about Jerome on the Apocalypse was: "An exceptional position was taken up by Jerome, who, under eastern influence, relegated the Apocalypse to the second class of scripturae ecclesiasticae (in Ps. 149)..." So I removed the encyclopedia middle-man and changed the reference to "Jerome's homily on Psalm 149". I will get the homily later and verify or remove the wikipedia sentence on Jerome.

The second one was about the 1st Council of Hippo. The wikipedia page used more wishy-washy language that made it appear as if the Council was against the Apocalypse. Rather, only dissenters were, and the Council affirmed it. So, I removed the statement about the Council, since it was irrelevant.Glorthac (talk) 03:16, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Include some sense of John in the introduction.

I liked this introduction. It flowed and made sense (unlike many if not most other wiki articles). One suggestion for improvement: Include something about John in the introduction. I liked the definition of the word "revelation", something similar regarding John would be useful. The John that wrote "Revelations" can be confused with "John the Baptist". It would just be a good idea to establish something of his identity, what his relationship was to Christ, etc... to provide some context for the rest of the article. ````Jonny Quick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.137.251.249 (talk) 04:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Jonny: Good comment. If we could agree that John the Apostle wrote Revelation, we could have a section giving all of the background information we have on him, and it most certainly would be a worthwhile addition. Trouble is, we can't agree on who wrote it (see the section on "Authorship"). --gdm (talk) 19:12, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

The lead should summarize the article, see WP:lead. In particular, it should summarize the content of the book and the various traditions about the author. Leadwind (talk) 23:45, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

If you feel the intro is incomplete, you need to write a section to add whatever you think is missing, but please don't do it by copying and pasting, or cutting and pasting, from the body of the article. Re authorial issues: In the case of a document like Revelation, these are more extensive than can be covered adequately in the intro, which is why they have been given their own separate section. The rules are good guidelines, but each situation is unique and some flexibility is required. --gdm (talk) 04:09, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Two editors and the guidelines for good leads all say we should summarize the main points of the article in the lead. I have a lot of experience editing leads and have a pretty good idea that this one is poor. A lead should be able to stand on its own as a concise summary of the topic. Please cite a guideline or policy that supports excluding this information from the lead. If you can't, then please let other editors edit this page in accordance with standard WP practice. Leadwind (talk) 17:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

No problem there, Leadwind. There's always room for improvement. You just need to create a real summary of your own making, and not just copy and paste from the body of the article. --gdm (talk) 21:15, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Please cite me the policy or guideline that says I can't just copy and past from the body. Let's leave aside our various opinions and stick to policies and guidelines. Leadwind (talk) 15:40, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Just a matter of common sense, Leadwind. Clearly, you don't want to have a paragraph here, then an identical one further down.--gdm (talk) 19:31, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Neither of the paragraphs you deleted from the lead was identical to any paragraph in the body. But it's a moot point because the sort of information that you deleted (author and content) is now in the lead. Leadwind (talk) 13:11, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

The Use of Citations

I noticed that someone recently deleted a paragraph, and one of the reasons given was that it did not contain a (secondary) citation, which prompted me to share a few thoughts on the use of citations.

I can't help thinking that we often try to be too clever for our own good in theological articles on Wiki. We throw in all of these obscure citations (some of which no self-respecting theologian would want to be associated with), and we forget, or perhaps don't realize, that the highest form of citation is that of the primary source, which in this case is Revelation itself. A quote from a primary source is worth two or three from secondary sources.

This is not to say that secondary sources aren't valuable. However, just because something is published doesn't make it worth quoting, or even accurate, and we have to be careful that we don't use citations in a way that might be misleading to people who are not acquainted with Revelation and its issues. Some of our readers (and some of our editors too, I think) don't realize that a secondary citation is just an opinion, no matter how well-informed that opinion may be.

Finally, it is not necessary to provide a citation from a secondary source to illustrate every single point. To expect this is to impose an unreasonable burden on writers/editors. If a statement is both reasonable and can be supported by the primary text, it is perfectly acceptable, even without a secondary citation. If a secondary citation can be added, so much the better, but the lack of one is not a cause for deletion. --gdm (talk) 19:12, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Depending on the paragraph, the primary sources might have been appropriate and might not have been. What was the paragraph? Leadwind (talk) 23:43, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Modern views and undue weight

Take a look at the Modern views section. Notice how many words are devoted to the mainstream scholarly view (first paragraph), and how many words are devoted to older, minority views (three other paragraphs). For NPOV reasons, it's important to give each viewpoint an amount of coverage proportional to its notability. Minority views should be secondary. Leadwind (talk) 18:40, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Leadwind, you're coming in late in the discussion here. There has been lots of contention in the past due to the use of loaded (and subjective) terms like "mainstream," "liberal," "conservative," "academic," "non-academic," etc., which are often used in a way which amounts to little more than name-calling, and we've made a conscious effort to get rid of that kind of language. If you turned in an academic paper, at least at the graduate and post-graduate levels, and offered as an argument in support of your thesis that it is "mainstream" -- quite frankly, your professor would laugh at you. On this site, we've found that presenting multiple views in an objective and unbiased fashion has been a good way to get rid of the contention and the destructive editing that went along with it, not to mention that it's a good scholarly practice. If you have anything constructive to add to the article, we'd love to see you participate, but if your idea is just to tear down what's already there, please reconsider.--gdm (talk) 21:30, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

It's a good thing I'm not submitting a paper to a professor! It's no fun to be laughed at! Anyway, the point is that the more predominant views should get more space and the less predominant views less space. Right? Isn't that what WP:NPOV says? Leadwind (talk) 15:44, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

As for getting laughed at, what do you think a professior would say if you turned in an academice paper that cited the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible.? Leadwind (talk) 15:55, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

dating and undue weight

Look at the dating section. It pays far more attention to the minority, early-date view than to the predominant view (c 96).

Here's the undue weight policy: "Neutrality requires that an article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint, giving them "due weight". It is important to clarify that articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more widely held views."

Leadwind (talk) 22:59, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Leadwind, you're beginning to sound like a bureaucrat! Reading the passages in question, I see no undue weight given to any of the positions. The earlier date (which I personally do not support) takes up more space because it is more complex and requires more explanation. Notwithstanding, the views are presented in a fair and even-handed manner, and a lot of effort has been put into making them so. If you're concerned that a particular view is still not getting covered in enough detail, we would like nothing better than for you to fill in the gaps with new material, but please don't try to even things up by deleting what others have worked hard to put together, or by changing the wording in a way which privileges one position over another. --gdm (talk) 21:39, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Please cite me a policy or guideline that says we should give more space to less-notable views when the less-notable views are complex. Leadwind (talk) 15:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Tenney is not a reliable source

This is in the lead. modern scholars are divided between the apostolic view and several alternative hypotheses which have been put forth in the last hundred years or so.<ref>Merrill C. Tenney, gen. ed. "Revelation, Book of the." ''Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible.'' Vol. 5 (Q-Z). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2009.</ref>

This is hardly a reliable source, especially as Tenney died in 1985 and here he is editing a book 24 years later. Zondervan is a well-regarded only within Christian circles. Is there a historical-critical scholar who thinks that the author of Revelation wrote John? It's not an open issue in mainstream scholarship. To say that it's an open issue is misleading. It's only an open issue for those outside the mainstream. Leadwind (talk) 16:02, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Leadwind, I think you just said this, above. You seem to think that a work is "academic," "mainstream," or "scholarly" only if it shares the positions that you personally support. Yet when I was studying for my graduate degree in theology, I studied under professors who hold Ph.Ds, have full-time university faculty positions, and publish on a regular basis (it was required of them). No one could accuse them of not being academic or scholarly. Yet each of them was opinionated in their own particular way and they did not conform to any kind of a "mainstream" stereotype. Similarly, the publications you demean are put together by respected scholars. You can't exclude them from the conversation just because you don't like the positions they hold.

In theology, unlike some areas of study, things are never black and white. The world of contemporary theology is very diverse. It does not have a universally accepted position on just about anything. On top of that, you have the accumulation of 2,000 years of theological history which is still very much a part of the discussion today. It is a huge mistake to take one little blip from that huge radar screen and dogmatically insist that it is the only valid position. This is a kind of intellectual tyranny which has no place on Wiki. Your positions should most definitely be covered in an objective and unbiased way, and even though many people won't agree with them, they have no right to interfere with that. But you, in turn, have to extend that same privilege to others, and you have to do so without implying that they are outdated or unscholarly. For example, your addition to the introduction is clearly intended to bias the statement on authorship in a particular direction. It should have been included in a section dedicated to that viewpoint in the body of the article.

Here's a quote from the first section on this discussion page. It sums up in one sentence what makes Wiki so special: --gdm (talk) 17:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

"Wikipedia performs a uniquely valuable role in putting side by side, ideas which would otherwise probably never share the page." Coxparra (talk) 08:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

gdm, please cite WP policy or guidelines to back up your statements. WP says to give preponderance to the views that predominate in scholarship. The view that the Apostle John didn't write Revelation predominates. That's the view that a WP article should emphasize. It's really pretty simple. Stick to what the experts say. The experts predominantly say that the apostle didn't write John. It doesn't matter what you or I think. What matters is what the experts say. Leadwind (talk) 19:22, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Also, since when are we discussing theology? This issue is one of history. Which actual historical person actually wrote this text? When we get to theology, there's no consensus, but as long as we're talking about plain history, the historians have pretty much come to agreement on this issue. Leadwind (talk) 19:28, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm using theology in the broad sense, which encompasses every aspect of Biblical study, even in a secular environment. As for the consensus you appeal to, it simply doesn't exist, except within very limited circles of scholarship. Many published authors will claim that there is a consensus behind their position, because it strengthens their argument. But in reality, the "consensus" is just a "consensus of like-minded scholars," which is not quite the same thing. Strictly speaking, they're not lying, but they're not telling the whole truth either. You seem to be very much against the unbiased inclusion of multiple viewpoints.--gdm (talk) 19:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

"You seem to be very much against the unbiased inclusion of multiple viewpoints." Not at all. I'm against the biased inclusion of multiple viewpoints. I want to follow WP policy and let the predominant view predominate. Where we differ is simply on the question of whether there is a dominant, mainstream view to be given precedence (that's what I think) or whether there are lots of scholarly opinions with no predominant view (your view, unless I'm being unfair). Let's just find the best, current sources and see what they say. Then you and I can agree on the facts and get on with editing the article. Now in my experience those who hold a minority view like to deny that there is a majority view, but treating a minority view as of equal weight to a majority view is a violation of WP:NPOV. Leadwind (talk) 12:23, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

On the surface of it, what you're saying makes sense. But what you're not making allowance for is that "predominant view," like "mainstream," is all a matter of which side of the fence you're on. What you think is predominant is totally fringe to someone else, and they can produce just as many publications to support their view as you can to support yours. ("But my sources are better than theirs," you will say. They'll say the same thing back to you, and where does that get us? Precisely nowhere!) If you want to avoid contention and negative editing, you have to present the major views on equal terms - objectively, neutrally, and without value judgments (even subtle or implied ones). This is my experience on this site, and I've seen it borne out on all of Wiki's theological sites, many of which continue to be contentious because one side or the other insists that their position be represented as the "mainstream" or "predominant" view. It's not scholarly, and it's not necessary. --gdm (talk) 00:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

So we agree that the predominant view should be given priority if it can be identified but we disagree on whether a predominant view can be identified. You say that since we can't agree on which view predominates, we should treat the views equally. Fair enough, I'll proceed only where a predominant view is clear. Leadwind (talk) 22:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

introduction out of place

Currently the Composition section includes an "Introduction" subsection. Instead, the Introduction should be discussed elsewhere, where the article discusses the content, probably under the "structure" section. Leadwind (talk) 19:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Leadwind, this is great! We actually agree on something! I've long felt that the article's organization still needed work. If you can help to organize it in a more logical way (without undermining the article's neutrality), I, for one, would be grateful to you.--gdm (talk) 19:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

characters

The Characters section is an excellent place to avoid contentious interpretations and simply build out the article with good information about the content of Revelation. I started, but there's plenty of room for folks to add a sentence or two for each character. Leadwind (talk) 13:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Religious Tolerance...

Um, no offense, but why is this page being depicting the Book of Revelation like a made-up story? Despite anyone's own personal views here, we have to acknowledge that some people do subscribe to this belief as divine truth (including myself). How can you expect anyone except cynics and atheists to refer to this as reliable if the page comes off as being written from an atheist or cynic point of view? I mean, there's actually a part that says that the book of Revelation has a "whole host of colorful characters" or something to that effect. That doesn't even seem like it takes the Book to be serious. I think people editing this page should avoid using levity, in the same way that Christian editors should avoid religion promoting or leaving out valuable details (this site is about trying to provide information, not take a stance on whether or not the Bible is a historical account); therefore they should treat each page with equal respect. They take other religious beliefs seriously, even those featured in myth and legend, and I think Christianity deserves the same respect. RandyS0725 (talk) 06:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

• sigh* the whole thing is a silly made-up fairy-story, harry potter for the gullible masses. in fact i'd say it's actually been given far more credence here than it should have been in a serious encylopedia article HieronymousCrowley (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, although on the one hand it's my opinion that it is ludicrous to treat Revelation as anything but superstitious nonsense, we have to be NPOV as (inexplicably) large numbers think it's "divine truth". Having read through the article I think that, with 2 exception, it's pretty NPOV and balanced. (But I think a believer would find it difficult to distinguish between POV and NPOV when it comes to, for example, the Bible). The 2 exceptions are the "plot" and "characters" sections in "Literary Elements". Although I enjoyed reading these sections, they do come suspiciously close to ridicule. The Book deserves it, but it can't really be justified in wikipedia DeCausa (talk) 01:21, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is neutral, meaning that it describes the Bible and theological views as pertaining to a certain religion or religious group. It does not say that the Bible would be the word of God, but neither denies it, since only believers (or unbelievers) make such choices about holy books; Wikipedia does not make such choices. The article should be informative for Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, pagans, etc. It is neither a place for them to fight about who's right about God and religion, nor a platform for evangelizing or proselytizing. Mainstream theological views upon the Apocalypse can be rendered in the article, as long as they are not presented as fact, but as opinion clearly attributed to such religion or such religious group. Scientific analysis of the Apocalypse can be rendered as fact, as long as such conclusions are consensual among the scientists (historians, textual critics, scholars of religious studies, linguists, anthropologists, etc.). If they are not broadly accepted in the scientific world, they still can be rendered as minority opinions pertaining to this or that authoritative scholar. E.g. if a textual critic proved that the number 616 appears in some old manuscripts instead of 666, this is a fact, since the textual critic did not invent the manuscripts, he has only studied them and published articles about it in respectable scientific journals (print-published, peer-reviewed). My personal philosophy is that God does not talk to humans, but this is not a matter of scientific proof, but a philosophical persuasion. Even starting from this assumption, I find interesting to know how others think about the Apocalypse, what are the most popular theories about its meaning, what are the main theological viewpoints about it, how has it been considered during human history, how this or that literary critic has analyzed the aesthetic merits of the Apocalypse, how scholars see it, how activists for social change see it as a source of inspiration for shaping a new world, how it mesmerized the masses during the history of Christianity, how it was almost excluded from the canon of the New Testament, since some Church Fathers preferred the Apocalypse of Peter to the Apocalypse of John, or at least saw these books as having equal value. I say these not as mere personal opinions, but as an explanation of how the official Wikipedia policies about neutrality, reliable sources, notability, etc. apply to the article which we are discussing. Wikipedia has articles about many religious and theological issues, and as a rule of thumb the same basic rules apply to any theological or religious Wikipedia article. So, one's religious affiliation should be bracketed when writing such articles, and only viewpoints based upon reliable sources should be included in the article, indicating their sources in the footnotes or using small quotes in order to render their point. Don't think you're writing for the Sunday school or for a club of fellow atheists, but think of writing a scientific (academic) article about this subject. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Er...what's your point? You've written a very long essay saying what we all know anyway...but the point of this discussion is: does anything need to change in this Article? If so, what?DeCausa (talk) 18:38, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 19:02, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

The name of the Book is Incorrect in the article

From the beginning of the article: The Book of the Revelation of John, often referred to as the Book of Revelation or simply Revelation

This is incorrect.

The name of the book of Revelation is: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The book titles itself in the first chapter, first verse: Revelation 1:1 - THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: