Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Korean pop music scandals

Korean pop music scandals

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Contested PROD. All the information here is included in the relevant articles, so this is needless duplication of information. I see no benefit in this being a separate article. I note that there do not appear to be similar articles for pop music scandals from other countries, and although this is not a reason to delete this one per se, it is an indication that there is no need for this type of list. If this article is kept, it should be re-written as a list with brief details ("xyz was sued by abc becase of mno") with links to the relevant sections in the artists' articles. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 23:46, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. —PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 23:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions. —PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 23:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. —PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 23:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I don't see a reason to delete, but as currently written this is a list of scandals, and should be converted to a proper stand-alone list (per nom). Closest similar articles I can find are Scandals and allegations of the New York City Police Department (which kind of resembles this article, but may lack appropriate main articles for some of its entries) and South Korean scandals (a proper stand-alone list). / edg ☺ ☭ 01:58, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I came online and tried to fix this article up a bit and I think it is viable. The reason for deletion is not valid. Material concerning scandals is regularly deleted from the K-pop wikisites for individual performers or bands. I would argue that even if the information is included in other wikipages, that's ok. Joe Dimaggio does not deserve a separate wiki page because he is mentioned in the Yankee page (or vice versa)? If you look at the history of the Wonder Girl page you see that material someone deemed adverse to that group was routinely removed despite the fact it was cited by a reputable source. This topic stands on its own. Indeed, it is those wikipedia pages for pop groups that should be deleted because they are often little more than fan sites. Honestly, Korean pop music scandals are a reality and a socio-cultural phenomenon that should be investigated. This requires Wiki documentation. I know the companies want to keep this information as secret as possible, but this was news. SM has been sued for "slave contracts" and the Wonder Girls didn't have insurance and came into the country on F-1 visas. This was huge in Korea and other Asian countries. The references I found were from reputable and TOP newspapers like the Herald and Times etc. I am expecting other people to add other scandals (current and from the past) as time goes by - I just wanted to give this page a good start. I do not see the rationale for just making a list and then referencing other articles. This is a 100% viable page. Thank you. Standage (Standage (talk) 03:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]
'Honestly, Korean pop music scandals are a reality and a socio-cultural phenomenon that should be investigated. This requires Wiki documentation - that would seem to imply that this is original research or synthesis, neither of which are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. All of the information either is or should be in the bands'/acts' articles. If the information is referenced at an independent reliable source, and is being removed from an article, then you should ask for help at the administrator's noticeboard or page protection. Editors who continually removed properly sourced information can be blocked or banned from Wikipedia. However, neither the "this should be investigated" or "the information isn't being kept in other articles" arguments show any reason for keeping this page PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 05:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Sorry, one added comment. Because truthful and well documented facts have been removed from the Wonder Girls article in the past, that can happen again and probably will happen again. At one point someone was using "tweets" by performers as news "sources" to contest a reputably sourced article, which shows the extent to which fans of this entertainment company will or might go to potentially distort the truth. Do people want this topic removed because they care about Wikipedia or because they care about the image of a pop group and its entertainment company? I don't know. Come on folks, the truth is the truth. I feel that by eliminating or changing this page wikipedia is literally "covering up" what have been huge news stories and a significant and documented phenomenon in Korea. This is an independent phenomenon that requires more than a list just as the NYPD scandals page required more than a list. Just let the page stand. Believe it or not, I put some work into this and there is no reason for this page to go down and every reason for it to stay up as a normal wiki page just like the NYPD scandals page. Thank you. P.S. Ok, I stayed up late and did a little more reseach. The first sign of problems in K-pop seems to pop up in 2002. There was a huge payola scandal. This scandal itself does not warrant a wiki page and it can't be referenced back to any particular group or band. That seems to prove my point that wiki needs a korean pop music scandal page. Standage (Standage (talk) 03:47, 14 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]
As I said above, if adequately sourced information (i.e. sourced at reliable independent sources) is being removed, there are ways of dealing with that (i.e. administrators' noticeboard or page protection - see my previous comment for links). Although there is coverage of individual "scandals", I couldn't find any coverage about scandals in Korean pop music as a whole - putting separate "scandals" together onto one page is research or synthesis of information. Has the press covered the payola scandal? If so, it can be mentioned in the Payola article. Has the press covered the range of scandals, rather than as individual scandals? If so, then a few references would be useful - if it can be shown that the subject of scandals as a whole in the Korean music industry has reliable, independent sourcing, rather than just each individual one, then I'd be happy to consider changing my position. As it stands, I see no evidence that this subject has been covered at reliable, independent sources (news, books, scholarly research). PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 05:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'd like to remind people that other articles which exist or do not exist have no bearing on this discussion (see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS) - we are discussing this article, not other ones. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 05:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment""" Please read this from the source you quoted: "In various discussions regarding a wide variety of articles, editors will inevitably point to similarities across the project as reasons to keep, delete, or create a particular article or policy. Sometimes these comparisons are invalid, and sometimes they are valid." It seems you left that part out. Comparing this Korean Pop Music Scandals article to the NYPD Scandals article is 100% valid. Neither article will include independent research or 'synthesis". Not to seem sarcastic, but why are you trying to rip down the Korean pop scandals article and not the NYPD scandals article since, basically, they have the same rationale and same process of development involved. If the NYPD article is good, the K pop scandals article is good. standage (Standage (talk) 06:47, 14 June 2011 (UTC)) standage (Standage (talk) 06:44, 14 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Comment Unfortunately, I think you are missing the point. I also do not understand, and I say this respectfully, why you jumped on this article virtually as soon as it was worked on today. How is listing scandals research? Oh my goodness, I have to be honest and say that seems like a real stretch to me. Also, I do not feel it is wrong for someone, like the person above, to show that other articles exist comparable to this one. If you said, "Wait, we can't have a Chicago Cubs article..." I can't say, "But this article about the baseball Cubs meets the same standards as the hockey Blackhawks article"? That's basically what the person above was saying in regard to this article and the NYPD article. Again, there is a general category called: Payola Scandals which cannot be referenced back to any particular group or band. What about the category of suicides in K-pop that might be due to extreme pressures to succeed? This is a general category that has been researched that can't be referenced back to a particular performer. Unfortunately, your argument doesn't fly. I have to be honest and point that out. I really do not understand why you feel this category has to come down? It works. This is a well-documented phenomenon - well sourced. Time magazine, Korea Herald, Korea Times etc. This is a viable documented topic with viable and well-documented subcategories. standage (Standage (talk) 06:49, 14 June 2011 (UTC)) standage (Standage (talk) 06:47, 14 June 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Standage (talk • contribs) 06:09, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Let me please clarify this statement: "'Honestly, Korean pop music scandals are a reality and a socio-cultural phenomenon that should be investigated. This requires Wiki documentation." At no time did I say I was going to do any investigating and everything I have put into this article is well sourced by completely objective news sources. The individual scandals that have happened and that are going to happen should continue, obviously, to be investigated by the journalists and scholars - like TIME magazine - who have provided the well-documented source material that I am using. This broad and REAL category requires Wikipedia documentation. Korean pop music scandals are a reality and a social phenomenon - this requires that an encyclopedia document them. At no time did I imply that I was going to do independent research and other wiki pages use the same methodology as this page. Exactly the same methodology and nobody is trying to remove them. Please pardon my exasperation, but what is really the big deal here? This is a well-documented and legitimate contribution to wikipedia. I apologize for saying this, but this situation is quite frustrating. standage (Standage (talk) 06:49, 14 June 2011 (UTC))(Standage (talk) 06:44, 14 June 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Standage (talk • contribs) 06:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]