Talk:Walam Olum

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/* Brian Swann */

In 1993, Brian Swann wrote On The Translation of Native American Literature, "given the history of this hemisphere, to settle for the dignity of mystery is far preferable to any claim of definitiveness." Swann, in 2005, edited Algonquian spirit: contemporary translations of the Algonquian literatures., Which has a chapter devoted to Oestreicher's interpretation of the Walam Olum followed by other stories about Lenape literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 03:51, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gerald Vizenor wrote in 1994 "Native American Indian literatures have been overburdened with critical interpretations based on structuralism and other social science theories that value incoherent foundational representations of tribal experiences." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 01:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unless Vizenor mentions the Walam Olum he's irrelevant to this article. However, the Swann book looks like an excellent source to enlarge this article.

Algonquian Spirit: Contemporary Translations of the Algonquian Literatures of North America Bison Books (December 1, 2005) ISBN-13: 978-0803293380 page 4 "In 1994 textual evidence was advanced demonstrating that the Walam Olum is spurious and that Constantinc Samuel Rafinesque, its alleged discoverer, was in fact its author (Oestreicher 1994). The so-called Delaware Indian pictographs are not Delaware at all but are in fact hybrid combinations of Egyptian, Chinese, Ojibwa, and even several Mayan symbols newly published at the time (Oestreicher 1994, 16-21; 1995b. 101-231). As for the accompanying "Delaware" text, it was fabricated by Rafinesque from the very sources he claimed to have used as translation aids: mainly, David Zeisberger's Grammar of the language of the Lenni Lenape Indians (1827) and John Ileckewelder's list of Lenape place and personal names (1834) (Oestreicher 1994, j-12; 1995b, 10-72). (Heckewelderand Zeisberger were both Moravian missionaries who had lived among the Lenape during the eighteenth and early nineteenth" centuries.)

page 6 "The various renditions of the Waiam Olum make clear that rather than confronting hard textual evidence that might have demonstrated the text fraudulent, the translators mainly rephrased the epic to conform to their own theories. Ironically, those theories often ran counter to those incorporated into the Walam Olum when it was first created. The different versions of the same Walam Olum verses presented in this study underscore the need for translators to put aside agendas and confront textual evidence squarely."

Native American Indian Literature is relevant to the topic because the Walam Olum is published in the Swann's book on Algonquian literature. It is clear that Algonquians are Native Americans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 00:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Content of the Walam Olum was asked about before without response, and should be included. Andrew Widget published in 2005 about Native American Indian Literature on the Walam Olum content: ::::http://books.google.com/books?id=6DOl6wnyHJ4C&lpg=PA90&dq=walam%20olum%20epic&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=false

Another reliable source is Jace Weaver's Book: That the people might live: Native American literature

http://books.google.com/books?id=08SkJw26qoMC&lpg=PA48&dq=lekhibit&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q=lekhibit&f=false

If this is asking for a more detailed summary of the content of the Walam Olum, I support the request, and I'll try to work something up over the weekend. David Trochos (talk) 07:42, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See the following on page 11 for another detailed summary of the wallumolum. This is the source written by Dr. Linda Grover published in March 2009.

http://www.boisforte.com/documents/Feb-March.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 04:54, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Writer of WO

/* Lekhibit */

The Wallumolum claims to be written by Lekhibit in the text. Why is this fact not mentioned in this article?

Because it's not quite as simple as that. Explantion now added to summary of the W.O. David Trochos (talk) 06:57, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of books that state the Author of the WO is Lekhibit:

http://www.google.com/search?q=lekhibit&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 17:28, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The perils of Google, most of those are just copies of the same thing, a 'translation'. Dougweller (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The benefits of youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwEWAVYZKBc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 04:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Ancient travelers to Chinklacamoose were first described in the "Red Record" or Walam Olum. This was an old collection of pictographs, or stick figure drawings, created over 3,600 years ago describing the creation and travels of the ancestors of the Lenape and Delaware Indians from their ancient homelands to their present day settlements throughout America." Legends of Clearfield County, Melvin Lingle. 2004. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.12.139 (talk) 04:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

Here's a poorly cited quote + personal comment I removed from the article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:25, 26 June 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

More recently, in 2009 issue of the Bois Fort News, Dr. Linda Grover wrote "The Wallum Olum tells of the time before the Great Migration. This is an epic that begins with the Great Spirit creating the Earth, records the succession of families and clans, and recounts significant events such as visions, sicknesses, the Great Flood, the battle between good and evil, and a much earlier migration from the west. It was translated into English more than 200 ago, and although the translation is imperfect and clumsy the story and song is alive in its haunting, poetic beauty." Bois Fort News, Dr. Linda Grover. Mii gwetch, Lenni Lenapi."

Linda Grover has no expertise for such a statement and the IP knows this as he's been involved in this article for a long time. And it is clear OR to add a general comment about Indian literature - sources need to discuss the subject. These are two separate issues and the IP is welcome to take the OR issue to WP:NORN and argue that it isn't original research and Linda Grover to WP:RSN and argue that she's a reliable source. Dougweller (talk) 20:02, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Widget published in 2005 about Native American Indian Literature on the Walam Olum content: ::::http://books.google.com/books?id=6DOl6wnyHJ4C&lpg=PA90&dq=walam%20olum%20epic&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=false

Another reliable source is Jace Weaver's Book: That the people might live: Native American literature http://books.google.com/books?id=08SkJw26qoMC&lpg=PA48&dq=lekhibit&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q=lekhibit&f=false See the following on page 11 for another detailed summary of the wallumolum. This is the source written by Dr. Linda Grover published in March 2009. http://www.boisforte.com/documents/Feb-March.pdf

Dr. Grover is certainly an expert on this topic and more than qualified to make "such a statement" http://www.d.umn.edu/~amind/main/Grover.php

Ah, a different Grover. Hardly a detailed summary though. You seem to think she is better qualified than Oestricher - is that on the basis of the courses she teaches, eg AmIn 3420 American Indians in Sports, AmIn 4640 American Indians in the Movies, American Indian Women, and American Indians and the Media [1] [2]? Her PhD is in Education. [3].

I am also curious about why you are saying a 1994 book was published in 2005. And why a mysterious IP suddenly appears to save you from a 3RR warning. Dougweller (talk) 06:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The same Dr. Linda Grover wrote the article that teaches American Indian Studies. Oestreicher is an "independent scholar", meaning he is not employed as a teacher.