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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by AKMask (talk | contribs) at 23:41, 8 July 2011 (→‎Discussion re: Motion1: sad day). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b) none none 26 July 2024
Motion name Date posted
Motions regarding User:Δ (formerly User:Betacommand) 8 July 2011

Motions

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Motions regarding User:Δ (formerly User:Betacommand)

Motion: User:Δ topic banned

Pursuant to the provisions of Remedy 5.1, RfAr/Betacommand 2, and mindful of the recent and current disputes surrounding this user in many fora, the committee by motion indefinitely topic-bans Δ (formerly known as Betacommand) from making any edit enforcing the non-free content criteria, broadly construed. User:Δ is also formally reminded of the civility restriction and other terms to which they are still subject as a condition of the provisional suspension of their community ban.

Support:
  1.  Roger Davies talk 20:43, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  2. The Cavalry (Message me) 21:04, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Clearly too much editor and administrative time is being consumed by disputes over Δ's non-free content criteria enforcement: by my count there are threads within the last 48 hours at AN, ANI, Δ's AN subpage, AN3 (2), Wikiquette alerts, AE, and DRN. –xenotalk 20:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 21:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:
Abstain:

Alternative motion: User:Δ site banned

In breach of the provisional suspension of their community ban, Δ (formerly known as Betacommand) has engaged in conduct injurious to the encyclopedia and the indefinite community ban is hereby reinstated by motion of the Arbitration Committee.

Support:
  1.  Roger Davies talk 20:43, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I'd rather it does not come to a full ban, and would prefer the NFCC motion. However, in my opinion, Δ's extreme interpretation of the NFCC policy and refusal to compromise is hurting the project more than it is helping. It antagonises and ultimately drives away users who are acting in good faith, but I do understand that Δ does a lot of good work with the project in other areas, and I commend him especially for his work with Δbot (talk · contribs). The Cavalry (Message me) 21:12, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:
  1. Δ is capable of doing good work other than NFCC enforcement without issue; for example, Δbot (talk · contribs) has been quietly chugging away with no complaints. –xenotalk 20:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 21:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain:

Discussion re: Motion1

  • I wonder, just how many times does it take to make something stick to a wall? It's certainly less than how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop. These endless proposals for this, that, or the other band are insane. Everyone is effectively saying "Δ, until your morale and attitude improves, the beatings will continue". The results here are utterly predictable. ANYone forced to put up with as much abuse as he has suffered would have "issues" with his behavior. Want a real proposal? How about a moratorium on the *()#@$@#! endless ban/topic-ban/beat-senseless proposals. Those arbcom members voting support of either sanction are ignorant of the underlying issues that are happening right now and the constant, unending harassment for the work Δ has been doing. You are railroading Δ, pure and simple. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:50, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • A topic ban was proposed at WP:AN, and failed to reach consensus. A site ban was proposed at WP:ANI, and was snow-closed amid overwhelming opposition. For ArbCom to resurrect both proposals in an explicit attempt to override what the community has decided feels like a bit of a slap in the face, to be honest. 28bytes (talk) 21:55, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • ArbCom should also be aware that Δ has performed thousands upon thousands of edits over the last year in support of NFCC enforcement. This was done without creating very much fuss, without a whole bunch of hoopla about it. ArbCom should also be aware that over the last three months inclusive, six different reports were made to WP:EW in an attempt to get Δ blocked for NFCC enforcement. Only the most recent of those reports saw a block come down for it (and that, controversially). All the others were found to not be violations but one that ended up going stale. The people asking for his head have been wrong over and over and over again. But, instead, we take the cop out approach and topic ban him? Wow. Utterly wow. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Responding specifically to Xeno; just because there ARE threads in existence doesn't make Δ WRONG. Case point; the WQA thread found in Δ's favor. If I started threads at multiple locations about you, should we then assume you should be topic banned? You are compelled to look deeper than this. Do it. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:17, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The biggest act of ArbCom hypocrisy ever. If Delta was edit-warring to remove BLP violations, you'd all be running desperately to defend him. Despite the fact that NFCC is as much of a pillar as BLP (in fact possibly more so - look at that word "Free" in the top left hand corner of the page), you're all pandering to the peanut gallery. It's frankly sickening, and you really need to take a long good look at yourselves. You are enabling copyright violators. Pathetic. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Echoing Black Kite. This is an absurd farce. Look at our Five Pillars, our m:Mission, and then tell me you really believe the fault lies with Delta and not the asinine hounding, berating and abuse he takes simply for trying to help keep us true. I signed up for this project the same time many others did im sure, seeing Jimmy's interview posted on slashdot back in the day, about giving every person, every child, every school free knowledge. Freely shared, freely used, to better actual lives. To improve education, to improve access. We had morals, and these motions do nothing more then implicitly turn our backs on what we once reveled in. This is shame-worthy. -- ۩ Mask 23:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion re: Motion 2

General discussion

Today, I was trying to find a venue to bring ArbCom's attention to the unending spat of ban/topic-ban proposals that have erupted over the last week, and the constant harassment that Δ has endured and couldn't find an appropriate place (complaint for another time). I had a false hope that ArbCom might have the wherewithal to recognize the serious situation for what it was; a massive conflict with a ton of flame added by a number of editors contributing to the dispute. I had hoped ArbCom would have been willing to step in and calm the waters. Instead, it appears ArbCom is willing to take the cop out, and refuse to address the serious problems created by all contributors to this dispute. Shame on you ArbCom, shame on you. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:00, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll repeat what I said elsewhere from the last weeks of additions: If you take out Delta from the "NFCC and Delta" problem, the issue will only return as "NFCC and (someone else)", whether that be Hammersoft, Black Kite, or a half-other dozen editors that keep NFC in line on WP, because there are editors that simply bother not to learn the policy or have come to resent it. I cannot fully clear Delta on his behavior on certain actions of late (as there's a confluence of numerous issues). But to simply to ban/block Delta without addressing the other side of the issue (whether this be the consensus for NFC, or those that employ a very loose interpretation of it, or a number of other factors) is a temporary reprieve. I will say this: there may be several pending ideas to improve NFC, and it may be a wise idea to try to bring in ArbCom to at minimum assign a moderator to assure the consensus process is not derailed by personal issues. --MASEM (t) 22:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If another editor decides to step into Beta's shoes with clumsy disputed mass edits followed by scolding, insults, threats, and edit warring, over what Chase Me describes as "extreme interpretation of the NFCC policy and refusal to compromise", then they will ultimately have to stop as well. The phrase "editors that simply bother not to learn the policy" is indicative of the problem, an utter and complete refusal to acknowledge that some editors legitimately and reasonably believe NFCC policy and the NFC guideline urge an image be kept or its rationale fixed in a given case, or ask as the guideline instructs that some things are consensus matters to be resolved through discussion. Edit warring and incivility are the antithesis of constructive work on the encyclopedia, and the former is permitted as an exception to WP:3RR only in the extreme case where something "unquestionably" violates the policy. Telling others that their question doesn't count because you know you are right is no substitute for discussion. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The place for discussion is at the policy page, not knowingly breaking the policy and then saying you don't agree with it. That should be obvious. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)And ergo, a ban/block on NFC is not the right solution if the issue is "edit warring and incivility" (and again, to be clear, I support Arbcom re-establishing this facet of the community restrictions). But again, the other facet is NFC itself (not Delta); I've pointed out many many times before that if there is a problem with how NFC is interpreted differently by different people, then there's should be proposals aplenty at WT:NFC to amend and revise the policy to either reaffirm what it says or bring it in line with what consensus suggests, but that's not happening relative to the amount of discussion there is about Delta's specific actions. No one wants to seem to touch the core problem, which is the dissent to which NFC is handled. There is an RFC attempting to generate ideas to improve it, and I will offer that Delta offered two automatic bots that would aid in fixing and tagging broken NFC images, so it is not like there's no attempts at all - just not what I'd think there would be. --MASEM (t) 23:19, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It could also be argued that the correct way to go about getting one's editing sanctions lifted is to stay within them and to keep one's nose clean, rather than to repeatedly violate them while continuing to get into lame, petty spats like 3RR violations. I don't doubt for a minute that Delta was goaded into a good few of these (MMN taking him to ANI for a civility problem really takes the cake), but very few people seriously think this is a stitch-up. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 23:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The problem has always been and continues to be Delta's behaviour. There is absolutely nothing in NFCC that dictates or mandates his behaviour. Nothing. Not a single word. I touched the core problem. I went out and enforced NFCC in a community focused manner without causing disruption, hurt feelings or generating any dissent. Neither one of us had our edits mandated by NFCC policy and there was an entirely different result. Delta's edits are his own choice and his own behaviour.--Crossmr (talk) 23:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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