Talk:Osteopathy

POV, Fringe, Minimal, and Inferior

This article is POV in that Osteopathy is often viewed as somewhat fringe, of minimal efficacy, and a degree in it is typically viewed as an inferior degree to an MD. As far as I know, only an osteopathic doctor views it as on an equal footing with nonfringe medicine. This article does not mention this so is pro-Osteopathy POV (maybe I missed it, in which case it is written in an UDUEly positive POV). Reading the article as my sole information source, one would think it does not have the shady reputation it does (whether or not this reputation is justified). If this critical view is actually true in any part, that also should be in the article. PPdd (talk) 05:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. "Osteopathy" isn't accepted medical practice, yet there's NO "criticism" section. This needs one. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's somewhat irresponsible to have this article up without one. 129.137.218.171 (talk) 01:00, 20 June 2012 (UTC)Ubiquitousnewt

Comparison of MD and DO in the United States has a more complete discussion. I would say that a DO in the United States (as opposed to the more alternative practices elsewhere) should have minimal interaction with the WP:FRINGE guideline. By my personal impression, it looks like osteopathic medical schools have somewhat lower standards than medical schools, but they have largely overcome the early unsupported claims. - 2/0 (cont.) 13:10, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure a "board certified" acupuncturist might disagree with you as to other fringe. LOL :) PPdd (talk) 20:39, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

There is barely a difference anymore in the admission standards of DO medical schools and MD medical schools. It's still there but it's a pretty small difference at this point.TylerDurden8823 (talk) 06:36, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

UNDUE

The section, "Osteopathy around the world" is so long it dominates the article. Instead of being about osteopathy, it reads like an attempt to promote a view of legitimacy by name dropping. PPdd (talk) 23:09, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Change the section name to Regulation, but keep the subsections; there is probably something in the MEDMOS than supports this, but if nothing else the current name does not convey a proper encyclopedic tone. Make sure that we properly convey the difference between actual regulation and professional associations. Nix the single news items and run a source check for anything talking about the other kind of osteopathy. The lists of schools are probably okay for the more targeted regional articles, but are overlong here. Cut or merge most of the educational detail except where needed in discussion of the regulations. Sound about right? - 2/0 (cont.) 04:18, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

My complaint is really upside down. The info on what osteopathy is UNDUEly little, not the other info is uduely too much. I still have no idea what osteopaty is beyond being people who got rejected from med school, or the rare people who had a lifelong passion to do some obscure manipulation tehcnique that they haven't even learned yet when they apply to the osteo school, so they could not know what it is they wanted to do their whole life when they were wanting to do it. It makes no sense to me, but the article sounds like what a osteo doctor said to me when I asked the difference. In instead of explaining a difference, he went into a dfensinve rant about how accredited it is, etc. PPdd (talk) 05:17, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Unless there are some fundamental differences in the way Osteopathy is practiced around the world, this entire section should be removed. For comparison: there is no "around the world" section on Oncology either. 193.202.33.19 (talk) 08:56, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Opening paragraph--definition?

I feel that most Wikipedia pages start with a clear explanation of the topic at the beginning. This page's opening discusses use of the word/s, what the idea is based upon, etc., but it is not clear in what osteopathy is. How can this be addressed? Is it really based upon the philosophy of the interrelationship of body structure and function, or is it just that philosophy, period? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.106.151.154 (talk) 15:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. The article is vague and woolly, and I still have no real idea what osteopathy is supposed to be. Sounds like pseudoscience, and the article comes across as propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.24.118 (talk) 11:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Alternative Medicine

The philosophy of osteopathic medicine falls within the evidence-based paradigm of conventional medicine. The concept of 'health' and 'wellness' are nuanced in Osteopathic Medicine to impart a specific emphasis in clinical practice.

The wikipedia page on Medicine states in regard to the legal controls for medical doctors: "While the laws generally require medical doctors to be trained in "evidence based", Western, or Hippocratic Medicine, they are not intended to discourage different paradigms of health." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theroofbeam (talk • contribs) 18:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

This article describes osteopathy in the general international sense in which it is classed as an alternative medicine, there is another article for Osteopathic medicine in the United States where osteopathic physicians are licensed to practice medicine. Ryan Paddy (talk) 19:25, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I just wanted to reply to your reversion comment: "osteopathy uses orthodox scientific research as a basis for clinical decisions which makes it not alternative but conventional medicine. to claim the international sense is different than the patent practiced reality of osteopathy is false." I think what you need here are some good reliable sources saying that Osteopathy is conventional medicine. If you like, I'm confident that I could find a number of scholarly sources, both from medical doctors and from osteopaths, that categorise osteopathy as practiced internationally (i.e. the subject of this article) as "Complementary and Alternative Medicine", or "CAM". On Wikipedia, CAM is presented in the Alternative medicine article. There is no point in us debating the merits of whether this is an accurate designation, our personal opinions on the matter don't count here. If it's the designation used in the most reliable sources, then it's the term to use on Wikipedia. That's kinda how things work here - we go with whatever the best sources say. If the best sources disagree on the subject, then we could present that disagreement here. I'm not fobbing you off - if you present appropriate sources in support of what you're saying it'll get play in the article. Ryan Paddy (talk) 09:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I've added the term "alternative" (+ a link to the alternative medicine atricle) to the opening sentence. The article on alternative medicine provides enough links to reliable sources to accept the classification of Osteopathy as alternative. Please DO NOT remove this without providing reliable sources that prove the opposite. 193.202.33.19 (talk) 08:45, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

And I'm still not happy with the word "skilled" in that sentence 193.202.33.19 (talk) 08:48, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Deleted "skilled" from opening sentence

there's a need for new definitions

There is a need for a definition of oseteopathy in the lead. There currently isn't one. The definition in the section Osteopathy#Techniques of osteopathic treatment is too technical. makeswell (talk) 05:04, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Pro-Osteopathy POV bias

This article is NOT written objectively (as if a neutral, third-party observer wrote it) but subjectively, as if the author(s) are pro-osteopaths. Instead of reading about multiple viewpoints on osteopathy, the reader is presented with "cherry-picked" quotations and material that attempts to argue from a position (i.e., that osteopathy is a legitimate, "scientific" medical practice) while ignoring the large amount of literature that suggests otherwise.

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

Ryoung122 18:29, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

this is one of the most biased articles i've ever seen on wikipedia

Why don't they just come out in the opening paragraph and say "In 99 percent of cases, Osteopaths is just another word for Chiropractor, that attempts to make it sound more legitimate because most people don't recognize the word Osteopath." Seriously, this article is misleading and completely uninformative. I vote to have the whole thing deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.197.124.19 (talk) 16:35, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Definitely uninformative. I read the article and still have no idea what osteopathy is. 150.101.58.177 (talk) 01:21, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Osteopathy is not a 'thing', its a profession and individual osteopaths vary greatly in the approaches used in their work. I am not surprised that you have little idea about what osteopathy is after reading Wikipedia page! Try reading a book? What aspect of osteopathy are you interested, philosphy, technique, history, contemporary training requirements. Look at the website of the statutory regulators in in Australia, NZ, the UK. or the Osteopathic International Alliance, or read the WHO education benchmarks for the profession. http://apps.who.int/medicinedocs/documents/s17555en/s17555en.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Distawrwydd (talk • contribs) 04:40, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Osteopathy came before chiropractic. Daniel David Palmer invented chiropractic after being taught osteopathy by Andrew Taylor Still. So osteopathy is not "another word for chiropractor", rather chiropractic is an offshoot of osteopathy that has gone its own way. However, I agree that the article is uninformative about what osteopaths actually do. The closest the lead comes is mentioning that some osteopaths perform "manual therapy". The chiropractic article says in its lead that "chiropractic treatment technique involves manual therapy, including manipulation of the spine, other joints, and soft tissues; treatment also includes exercises and health and lifestyle counseling". Similarly simple statements should be made about osteopathic treatment in the lead of this article, and in the section on treatment techniques, to make things clearer to the average reader. Ryan Paddy (talk) 04:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

If you read the chiropractic article, you'll see what this article SHOULD be written like. It is NPOV, whereas this article seems to have been written by a bunch of osteopaths. I would expect to see in the research section, mention that osteopathy is not based on solid science, and that the research on SMT is conflicting.

The "Techniques of osteopathic treatment" section of the article is basically all unscientific bullshit. Any medical doctor who treats ear infections or asthma with manipulation shouldn't be practicing medicine. --sciencewatcher (talk) 13:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking you may have conflated osteopaths and osteopathic physicians/ Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine here. I see people get confused on this issue all the time (understandable since the names are regrettably so similar). Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine do not treat ear infections or asthma with manipulation as the primary treatment with perhaps the occasional person on the fringe though what field these days doesn't have someone on the fringe ruining it for everyone else. This is not to say that some of them will not use OMM as an adjunct therapy in asthma patients on occasion but few Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine even use OMM today. There is some science behind OMM though I certainly agree that far more research is necessary to definitely prove or disprove its efficacy in a clinical setting and much of the research that has come out in the past has suffered from methodological flaws though newer research is improving in that respect. Osteopaths on the other hand who are foreign-trained and specialize only in osteopathic manipulation techniques might subscribe to such practices though I cannot confirm that for sure. I hope perhaps this clarified things a little bit. Also, on a separate note, is it really necessary to use such strong language such as the BS? I hardly think that is called for here considering this is a place for calm, logical discussion. Just my opinion but I think you can make your point without such language but that's neither here nor there regarding your point. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 05:54, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Since you are only talking about a single section of the entire article I think perhaps a more appropriate tag might be a neutrality dispute tag or NPOV tag for the section, not the whole article if you're going to put a tag like that one up. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 06:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Read the article - it says osteopaths treat asthma and middle ear infections using manipulation. I don't normally use strong language, but given the content of this article that was the only way to convey the depth of the problems with this page. As noted by other editors in the comments above, the entire article is POV so I think the tag should stay at the top of the article, but I would welcome other editors to come in and give their opinion and work on the article. --sciencewatcher (talk) 14:48, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I have read the article but I do not think you read my comment very carefully which I urge you to do this time. Osteopaths and osteopathic physicians (Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine in the United States who are equivalent to Medical Doctors) are not the same thing. I highly doubt that resorting to strong language was the only option to convey the depth of your dismay here. Your inference is incorrect about me being an osteopath. I am a medical student and I am an American not to mention you sound like you have quite the bias yourself since you have provided nothing to support your claims of quackery but your own opinion. That being said, read my earlier comment more carefully. I stated quite clearly that I am in agreement that OMM requires more rigorous study to be proven or disproven in terms of efficacy so I do not see how your claims of a conflict of interest or bias are true at all. I think my statements have been quite rational and NPOV. You should try to refrain from personal attacks, assumptions, inferences, etc. Again, if you think the entire article is NPOV then you need to support your claims by showing how that is so if you're going to attach such a strong label to it Sciencewatcher. The burden of proof to show the neutrality dispute is on the one who puts the tag up, namely you and you have not sufficiently done this. That being said, can you clarify exactly how that paragraph is "NPOV?" I don't think I see it. You may not agree with what is said there and you may not even think it is scientific but that does not necessarily mean it is NPOV. I do not see the bias you speak of but just an explanation of what foreign-trained osteopaths do and your disapproval of this, especially given your unnecessarily bias-laden comment on this talk page. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 15:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

It boils down to this: manipulation is unscientific, and many consider it to be quackery. I do fully understand your comments about osteopaths and osteopathic physicians. It is similar to naturopaths and NDs (and if you read the naturopathy article, it is much more NPOV than this article). The bottom line is that osteopathy is unscientific and this article doesn't adequately address that. I've given you one example above (ear infections and asthma), but really it is the tone of the entire article that is the problem. --sciencewatcher (talk) 15:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I wanted to make sure you were making the distinction between Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine and foreign-trained osteopaths because your initial comment did not sound like you were making this distinction since you said "any medical doctor who treats asthma or ear infections....etc." As I said, can you demonstrate how this is the case throughout the entirety of the article? Popular opinion is not the same as scientific fact. Whether you like it or not there is some (admittedly not enough yet) science supporting osteopathic manipulative medicine (I cannot comment fully on how similar the specific practices of OMM are to those of foreign-trained osteopaths) and as I have said twice I agree with more research for OMM being needed. Should research show that it is not worth doing, then that's really that. But the verdict is not in on that from what I can see. Your opinion and some other people who believe manipulation to be unscientific does not make this article's tone (especially the paragraph you spoke of, I re-read it) POV. Can you cite specific sentences in that paragraph showing a biased tone? If so, we can work on making the tone more NPOV but so far I have yet to see you provide evidence to support your claims which I think is necessary since your claims are strong ones. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 16:09, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I have been asked to provide an additional opinion on the neutrality dispute. I've read through the article looking for areas where neutrality is blatantly compromised to see how much of a problem non-neutral language is. I haven't looked at any similar articles because they have no bearing on the neutrality of this article.

The lead section is acceptable, but I do find "The principles of osteopathic medicine emphasize the interrelationship between structure and function of the body and recognizes the body's ability to heal itself; it is the role of the osteopathic practitioner to facilitate that process." to be problematic because it presents a theory specific to osteopathy as scientific fact, particularly with the use of "emphasize".

The "History" section is a bit lacking in content so neutrality isn't really an issue there at the moment.

The "Osteopathic principles" section is just about fine from a neutrality point of view, but it reads like a copyvio. (I'm not saying that it is one, but it doesn't seem very encyclopedic). The principles section shouldn't really have any criticism in it because it should state exactly the principles of osteopathy factually anyway.

"Techniques of osteopathic treatment" could definitely do with some further sources. The reliance on what appears to be a broken link to a glossary of terms doesn't really help to back up the claims made. This means that as well as verifiability issues, the neutrality of this section is questionable. The subsection "Scope of manual therapies" lacks sources for some very important claims, particularly "Treatment is said to lead to successful patient outcomes in a great number of functional and pathological disorders," and "The approach is contentious even within Osteopathy," both of these statements suggest something (positive/negative) without any evidence to back up the claims made.

The main section where neutrality is a problem is the "Research" section. This is because it only focuses on research that portrays Osteopathy in an entirely positive light, even when that is unwarranted. For example the part of this section which includes two uses of citation 23 - particularly the second statement sourced by this which states "Serious complications are very rare." This is not something given in the source, which says "The rate of serious complications from spinal manipulation, although not definitely known, appears to be very low overall.", "appears to be very low" is very different to "are very rare".

The "Osteopathy around the world" section is mostly neutral.

Overall it is clear that the article does have some neutrality issues, including some that I haven't mentioned here. Therefore I consider the NPOV tag to be appropriate in covering the entire article at this time.

Aside from this content dispute, I am confused by the use of the term "Foreign-trained osteopaths". As far as I can tell this is "foreign" from a US point of view, but it is unclear. --Mrmatiko (talk) 17:30, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your input Marmatiko. However I think part of the problem is the cherry-picking of sources, so you can't just read through the article to determine whether or not it is NPOV - you need to either know something about the subject, or do some research to see how the article stacks up against the major reviews. I'll admit I don't know a great deal about osteopathy, and I'll need to research it further before adding anything to the article. I did try searching for some reviews, but came up empty-handed. The med.nty.edu website says "There is little evidence as yet that OMT is helpful for the treatment of any medical condition. There are several possible reasons for this, but one is fundamental: Even with the best of intentions, it is difficult to properly ascertain the effectiveness of a hands-on therapy like OMT." And from the nhs website: "Osteopathy is a complementary or alternative medicine (CAM), and is different from conventional western medicine. Osteopaths may use some conventional medical techniques, but the use of osteopathy is not always based on science...There is evidence that osteopathy is effective for the treatment of persistent lower back pain...There is also limited evidence that it is effective in helping recovery after hip or knee operations.There is no good evidence that osteopathy is effective as a treatment for any other health conditions. Serious side effects or complications have been reported, but they appear to be rare." I think the article needs to be rewritten along the lines of the NHS webpage, which seems to be more NPOV. --sciencewatcher (talk) 18:07, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Sciencewatcher, just be cognizant of the fact that NHS is a website describing foreign-trained/not American-trained osteopaths and it is not describing American-trained Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

This article is about "osteopathy", not "American-trained Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine". Or are you under the impression that American trained doctors are the only ones that are any good? --sciencewatcher (talk) 20:04, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that this article is about osteopathic physicians. It says in the lede of the article that it is NOT about osteopathic physicians (and also in the US section). --sciencewatcher (talk) 20:08, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

You're mistaken in your assumptions that I am under a mistaken impression. I know this article is about osteopathy and foreign-trained osteopaths and not Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine. However, as my comment clearly says, I want you and the readers of this article to be cognizant of the difference between these two groups. That, if you read carefully, was my entire point. Especially considering how often I see people confuse these two groups and you did this yourself with your initial comment or you at least gave the impression that you had conflated these two groups which I said in my initial response. I never once said anything, explicit or otherwise, about American-trained physicians being the only physicians who are any good. Quite to the contrary, I believe that foreign-trained physicians are perfectly capable of being just as skilled as American-trained physicians, you are putting words in my mouth here. That being said, foreign-trained osteopaths who practice osteopathy are not recognized (at least in the United States and I believe elsewhere as well) as full-fledged physicians. You may want to consider reading my comments more carefully before throwing around such bold statements in the future.TylerDurden8823 (talk) 02:11, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

No, I wasn't confused...it seems to be you who is creating the confusion here. This article is about osteopathy. It was you who came in talking about Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine, claiming my comments were somehow incorrect because they did not apply to Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine (even though this article isn't about them!) The issue seems to be that you are using misdirection to hide the fact that osteopathy is slightly quacky by confusing the discussion with Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine. --sciencewatcher (talk) 03:49, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. You are the one who clearly made an error dragging physicians using osteopathy from the start not to mention that there was already mention of Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine in this article before this little discussion of ours regardless of the fact that they are not the central topic of the article. It is a valid point and a relevant one to make the distinction that I have been trying to make but you seem to enjoy in hurling baseless accusations and engaging in unnecessary petty behavior such as wholly ignoring my responses (if you read my previous one I have already acknowledged that this article is not about them in plain English which you selectively ignored). You have yet to provide any evidence that osteopathy is "quacky" considering you admitted your own ignorance on the topic earlier in response to Mrmakito's evaluation of the article (which I agree with mostly). I am not attempting to confuse anyone here, my points have been perfectly clear but I will be happy to sum them up for you again to clear the confusion as this will be my end to this discussion. My original point at the start of this was that labeling this article NPOV because you think that osteopathy is not yet proven (I agree, it's not proven one way or the other yet) is not what NPOV really means (recall that I have already clearly stated my position on a definite need for more research into it to disprove or prove its efficacy one way or the other-I am certainly a believer in the principles of evidence-based medicine). Furthermore, I have been attempting to clarify the difference between non-American trained osteopaths and Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine from the United States since your earliest statements on this talk page implied that you were grouping them together. Honestly, you seem to outright reject any opinion that is incompatible with your own (you did not seem terribly receptive of MrMatiko's opinion and went so far as to try and discredit his opinion despite admitting your own lack of knowledge on this topic), you make baseless accusations without providing evidence or citing specific examples (that's quite unscientific), I have yet to see you address a counterargument you were clearly wrong on such as your earlier remark that implied I think American physicians are the only ones who are any good (which I never said and do not think so that was a completely uncalled for and personally charged remark), and refuse to speak to others in a polite tone (I have seen you do it to other people on wikipedia even though their comments did not merit such a harsh attitude). Regardless, I wish you well and I will say goodbye now as this discussion has devolved from a somewhat worthwhile discussion of the substance of this article to a waste of my time correcting baseless personal accusations you are making. Farewell.TylerDurden8823 (talk) 06:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

If you check my edit history, you'll see I deleted the unwarranted accusation against you. The comment about 'only American physicians being any good' was based on your continual use of the word 'foreign', which implies that (but I see you're not using that word any more). I apologise for any offense. Osteopathy is slightly quacky due to not being based on science (I have provided sources above, and I will be adding them to the article). I wasn't discrediting MrMatiko, just pointing out (correctly, I believe), that you can't determine whether an article is NPOV simply by reading the article itself. And anyway, MrMatiko's conclusion was that the NPOV tag was valid. --sciencewatcher (talk) 15:18, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

As I said, I have no problem with an NPOV tag, only that it be tagged for the proper reasons. I saw the source you have mentioned and osteopathic medicine is not "slightly quacky" as you say though I will say as I have before that osteopathic medicine certainly does require more research into its efficacy, safety, and utility. At least in the United States, Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine practice the "conventional" aspects of medicine including surgery, prescribing pharmaceutical-grade drugs, etc. exactly the way their M.D. counterparts do in addition to learning about osteopathic medicine. I still feel your characterization of osteopathic medicine is not an accurate one but I suppose we'll agree to disagree and see what evidence-based medicine turns up. As you said, what I did not like was having unwarranted accusations hurled my way but that is the past and I accept your apology. There is science behind osteopathic medicine albeit not of a sufficient amount of quality yet but it is actively being researched and osteopathic manipulative medicine only makes up one small aspect (in the United States, I can't speak about elsewhere) of osteopathic medicine.TylerDurden8823 (talk) 18:07, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Osteopathy around the World

I tried to add a link to the Osteopathic International Alliance country guide. But it I cant get it to work.

http://www.oialliance.org/directories.htm

There was a misleading statement that non-physicians manual scope of practice osteopaths with qualifications from 'recognised' colleges and registration with the International Osteopathic Alliance gave practice rights in all countries. This is false. There is no global mechanism for recognising qualification in the profession that grants practice rights. Its territory specific — Preceding unsigned comment added by Distawrwydd (talk • contribs) 04:34, 7 July 2012 (UTC)