Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Noggin Magazine

Noggin Magazine

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No evidence that this publication is notable. References consist of self-published, primary, and otherwise unreliable sources. This magazine might have had some local importance in the past, but there is no indication of this or that the alleged "controversy" and "outrage" generated by this magazine is sufficiently covered in any third-party source. Article on magazine's creator (Tom Hunter (novelist)) has recently been deleted via AfD. Kinu ^t/_c 18:31, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I was involved w/ the Tom Hunter AfD during which I did a fair amount of research into sources and was only able to verify one solid source in the Cedar Rapids Gazette. I have a copy. The other two sources mentioned in the article (Iowa City Press-Citizen and Daily Iowan) I have never been able to find citations, my assumption is they exist, but impossible to cite without title,author,date. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, here's a couple of full verifiable confirmed citations from a quick search:
- Ann Scholl Boyer (March 25, 1992). "Tom Hunter creates Noggin in a bubble". Cedar Rapids Gazette. Cedar Rapids, Iowa. he's the editor of Noggin, one of Iowa City's most controversial publications.
- Timothy Connors (November 11, 1993). "Iowa City Council delays vote on newspaper racks". Cedar Rapids Gazette. Cedar Rapids, Iowa. p. B3. The publishers of ICON and Noggin said small news magazines would be the ordinance's worst victims. "In any lottery, it's very unlikely that the Register or the Press-Citizen would be left out," Tom Hunter of Noggin said.
The fact that it was called "one of Iowa City's most controversial publications" certainly lends a bit of notability. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 18:39, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep - unlike Hunter himself, the paper itself was clearly notable on a regional basis, and like most such papers had an influence far beyond the size of its stated circulation. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:35, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is a single source in-depth (Boyer). WP:GNG calls for "multiple" in-depth independent sources. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 22:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete As background it's a COI: "I am the uploader, Curmudgeon99. My legal name is Tom Hunter"[1]. Curmudgeon99 created the article, Tom Hunter founded the magazine. There is only one source that covers the topic in depth (Boyer). WP:GNG requires "multiple", the other sources are trivial or primary. No one has been able to produce other in-depth sources, I left numerous requests on Tom's talk page during the Tom Hunter AfD to no avail (I did not vote in that AfD). The only thing the magazine seems to be controversial for was anti-Gulf War protests, so the controversy is 1E. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 22:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - I actually read this magazine when it was published in Iowa City, and it offered a very significant point of view that was in strong contrast to local media of the day. The quality of both the writing and illustrations was extraordinary, which is saying something considering that the University of Iowa Writer's Workshop was located in the same city. I also read the articles about the magazine at the time. Just because someone cannot find the old articles online does not mean they don't exist. I read them. AnnThar (talk) 22:25, 12 November 2012 (UTC) — AnnThar (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Articles don't need to be online to be cited. But they need to be cited ie. Author (date). "Title" Work. And presumably someone will have read them to verify they discuss the subject in-depth. Typically local libraries contain collections of local newspapers on microfiche and/or digital scan. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 22:35, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete per all of Green Cardamom's excellent arguments above. Qworty (talk) 05:28, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Attention Green Cardamom, Qworty. Gentlemen, you will please note that I have now already uploaded the profile of Noggin in the Cedar Rapids Gazette and from the Iowa City Press-Citizen. These two sources (one more is on the way from the Daily Iowan) constitute multiple sources. Next, you make the broad statement that "The only thing the magazine seems to be controversial for was anti-Gulf War protests." Did you even bother to read the article? Didn't you notice the section about the cartoonist Scott Warren? His famous "Ed Gein" three-page cartoon strip? [Ed Gein was the inspiration for Psycho, leatherface from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Hannibal Lector from Silence of the Lambs.] There was hardly an issue of the magazine that was not controversial. We actually have three sources now. Two in the Cedar Rapids Gazette, one in the Iowa City Press-Citizen (that I just provided) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Curmudgeon99 (talk • contribs) 07:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: We can't obviously use photos of newspapers as those are copyrighted, but the cite that Curmudgeon99 (talk · contribs) is referring to is this:
- Armstrong, Valoree (November 25, 1991). "Magazines draw on large talent pool - Writers allow Iowa City to offer a wide range of publications". Iowa City Press-Citizen. pp. C1, C3.
So now the four cites mentioned are:
- Ann Scholl Boyer (March 25, 1992). "Tom Hunter creates Noggin in a bubble". Cedar Rapids Gazette. Cedar Rapids, Iowa. he's the editor of Noggin, one of Iowa City's most controversial publications.
- Timothy Connors (November 11, 1993). "Iowa City Council delays vote on newspaper racks". Cedar Rapids Gazette. Cedar Rapids, Iowa. p. B3. The publishers of ICON and Noggin said small news magazines would be the ordinance's worst victims. "In any lottery, it's very unlikely that the Register or the Press-Citizen would be left out," Tom Hunter of Noggin said.
- Armstrong, Valoree (November 25, 1991). "Magazines draw on large talent pool - Writers allow Iowa City to offer a wide range of publications". Iowa City Press-Citizen. pp. C1, C3.
- Peterseim, Locke (February 7, 1992). "Tales from the Crypt of Free Speech and Bad Taste". Daily Iowan. pp. 5B.

Just noting that all here, for what it's worth, — Cirt (talk) 07:47, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Update: The article was indeed plagued by over-dependence on primary sources. I've done some cleanup work, and this current version now relies primarily on secondary sources. Also, I've moved the page to "Noggin (magazine)" as the word "magazine" was not part of the title, and this appears to be the predominant naming convention in this manner on Wikipedia. I think those contributions have helped in the quality improvement effort to this article — though, of course, if anyone could suggest additional secondary sources or research avenues to pursue to find additional archived secondary sources, that'd be most appreciated. :) Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 08:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Located a 4th independent source for Noggin. The Daily Iowan, Feb 7, 1992. Page 5B. "Tales from the Crypt of Free Speech and Bad Taste" by Locke Peterseim, Daily Iowan Arts & Entertainment Editor, op-ed devoted to the alleged obscenities and other controversies swirling around "Noggin" Magazine. Curmudgeon99 —Preceding undated comment added 06:18, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]