Talk:Shriners
are shriner circus performers necessarily shriners?
~thansk. Xah P0lyglut 09:49, 2003 Dec 31 (UTC)
As I understand it, no. The Shrine contracts out the actual circus part of it. (That all I need, a requirement to sell the tickets AND the peanuts!
You have misunderstood. The Shrine Circus is put on by the local Shriners. Some, but not all of the local Shriners use their own clown unit for the circus. (one who knows)
No, not all the performers in the circus are Shriners. Grye 11:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
"These men, women and children were slain because of their faith in Christ, all in the name of Allah, the same demon god to whom every Shriner must bow, with hands tied behind his back, in worship, proclaiming him the god of his fathers in the Shrine initiation , at the Altar of Obligation."
This is obviously slanted, and it doesn't give any source.
- This article suffers from persistant vandalism by bigots (as above) and others. Don't mind it - just remove it when it turns up if you are so inclined. Rklawton 21:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Of the Shriners listed, not all of them are even listed as Freemasons, a prerequisit to the Shrine. Also, Cat:Shriners are not on a lot of their article pages. I suggest verifying each's Masonic (& Shrine) affiliation here: Talk:List of Freemasons, with citation & source; Then adding them here: List of Freemasons, Then adding Cat:Freremasons & Cat:Shriners to their articles. In the absence of this, I'd suggest removing them from this list. I will do all this myself, sooner or later, if it goes undone... Grye 08:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Confirmed & 100% adjusted
I would probably tend to delete this part of the talk section after completing this project, as I would hope the evolution of this issue, & it's resolution, would tend to make it redundant, by way of certain policies & watchguards being learned/enacted/etc. It's mostly a kind of workboard. Just a thought Grye 09:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
NPOV
This article's vandal-du-jour has tagged a section NPOV. Rather than revert it, though, I thought it might make an interesting discussion. Those who feel there's a POV problem with this section are invited to make edit suggestions. Rklawton 00:20, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Shriner History
The Shriner's blood oath and confession of Allah as God is documented in the secret Lodge document, THE MYSTIC SHRINE, AN ILLUSTRATED RITUAL OF THE ANCIENT ARABIC ORDER NOBLES OF THE SHRINE, 1975 Edition, (pages 20-22). Remember that Allah is not just another name for God. Allah is the name of another god. In usual occult fashion, the initiate swears that he will be inseparably obligated to this "most powerful and binding oath", in advance, and that he may NEVER retract or depart from it.
"The Fez itself, is an example of this double meaning behind most of Freemasonry's facade. Worn and even carried to the grave with pompous dignity, the history of the Fez is barbaric and anti-Christian. In the early 8th century, Muslim hordes overran the Moroccan city of Fez, shouting, "There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." There, they butchered approximately 50,000 Christians. These men, women and children were slain because of their faith in Christ, all in the name of Allah, the same demon god to whom every Shriner must bow, with hands tied behind his back, in worship, proclaiming him the god of his fathers in the Shrine initiation , at the Altar of Obligation."
http://www.saintsalive.com/freemasonry/fmsatansdoor.html http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/masonry_lucifers_network.html
We see perhaps the roots of this factual occurence here in an old text entitled: "The Works of Aphra Behn, Volume II" Behn, Aphra, 1640-1689
"King _Philip_ made a War in _Barbary_, Won _Tunis_, conquer'd Fez, and hand to hand Slew great _Abdela_, King of _Fez_, and Father To this _Barbarian_ Prince. _Abd_. … you fit me for Despairs, That may instruct me how to follow him in Death: Yet as I'm Prince o'th' Blood, and Cardinal too, You cannot be my Judges. _Abd_. You shall be try'd, Sir, as becomes your Quality. _Osmin_, … 'tis my Moor,--give him admittance strait, The Thought comes o'er me like a gentle Gale, Raising my Blood into a thousand Curls"
The jist being that the Moors sought and achieved revenge against King Philip for the sacking of Fez.
Of the their little known sect, it is written "The Fatimids (8th century) propped up their power by gathering the Ishmaelites into a Grand Lodge of complex initiations and hierarchical degrees; the members were used for political espionage and intrigue; the forms of the order were transmitted to Jerusalem and Europe and strongly influenced the organization, garb and ritual of the Templars, the Illuminati,and other secret fraternities of the western world. The American (Masonic) businessman is periodically a zealous Mohammedan, proud of his secret doctrine, his Moroccan fez and his Moslem shrine." (The Age of Faith, Will Durant p 289).
The Age of Faith: A History of Medieval Civilization -Christian, Islamic, and Judaic - from Constantine to Dante A.D. 325-1300
- Here are a few suggestions regarding the information you wish to ad to the article. First, stating that Allah is (or isn't) God is POV and unacceptable in an article about Shriners. However, it might make an interesting section in the Allah article. Likewise, the ancillary information you have about the Fez belongs in the Fez (clothing) article. The reference to the secret oath needs better documentation (ISBN, etc.), that shouldn't be any problem, and it may well give you a reason to link to the Allah article (though I don't know anything about a Shriner's oaths). The article could use significant expansion regarding a Shriner's intentions regarding any oaths. However, the possibility that a Shriner intends to serve anything other than the Creator of the Universe seems rather remote given the Shriners' dedication to fulfilling several Biblical commands regarding children, the sick, and charity. Lastly, one should remember that sometimes a silly hat is just a silly hat. Rklawton 01:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
In response to your remarks, stating whether or not Allah is or is not God is completely moot since the quote I mentioned has intention of positing this as fact. It merely mentions that the Allah being referred to is in fact a single and separate ancient God as there were many in the polytheistic religions at that time.
As far as POV'ing lets take a quick look at your response and see how many things we can pull out that one might argue are "POV":
POV: "stating that Allah is (or isn't) God is POV" POV: "The reference to the secret oath needs better documentation " (although I tend to agree and have obliged with the request below) POV: "the possibility that a Shriner intends to serve anything other than the Creator of the Universe seems rather remote given the Shriners' dedication to fulfilling several Biblical commands regarding children, the sick, and charity" Hitler gave out candies to children from time to time, why would people question that he was anything other than part of a vast and benevolant childrens organization? POV: "Lastly, one should remember that sometimes a silly hat is just a silly hat." That's an absurd insinuation, when discussing an organization as heavily steeped in symbolism as The Shriners are and Freemasons in general.
The Age of Faith (The Story of Civilization, Volume 4) (Story of Civilization) ISBN: 0671012002 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671012002/104-4296238-8175903?v=glance&n=283155
The Works of Aphra Behn, Volume II by Aphra Behn EText-No. 8885 http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8885
THE MYSTIC SHRINE ILLUSTRATED By: John Blanchard eBook 126317 http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/126317-ebook.htm