Talk:Manchuria/Archive 1

Misleading Article

"Manchuria" is the word used by "Nizi Japanese" (as distiguished by Nazi). It is a euphemism of the Japanese word "Manchukuo". Nobody in China considers the 3 northeast provinces as "满洲". There is no such a word in modern Chinese language. It literally conveys more racial information than a geographical concept. It is very provocative. Most people in China will be offended if "满洲" is used to replace "东北". The hans have inhabited Northeast China for more than one thousand years. Manchus are actually invaders. People in Northeast China, especial in Liaoning Province considers Manzhouli (满洲里), Inner Mongolia is the homeplace for the manchus. Northeast China is definitely different from this article's definition of so called "Manchuria".

Information about "東北三省" and "東北九省"

I think the definition of "東北三省" (literally "the Three Northeastern Provinces") nowadays and the historical "東北九省" (literally "the Nine Northeastern Provinces") should be added to the article. The article "东北九省" in the Chinese Wikipedia may help. - Alanmak 02:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Old talk

1. It that correct to state that "Northeast" = "Manchuria". I have the impression that Shandong is also considered as a part of "Northeast".
2. What happened in 1956, which makes the region as being comprised of the Jilin, Heilongjiang, and Liaoning provinces?

olivier 12:38 Mar 19, 2003 (UTC)

Shandong is not considered part of the "Northeast". As for 1956 -- nothing happened in that year really. Rather, in 1954-55, the present three provinces were created out of about six provinces and five municipalities that existed in the region at the time.

ran 06:17, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

What is the relationship of opium with Manchuria? Was it cultivated there? -- Error

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Fixed an error. The PRC has never asserted sovereignty over the Russian Far East. The shooting in 1969 was over disputed islands. The Chinese attitude toward the RFE is similar to Mexican attitudes over California. Bad thing that it was lost, but no serious suggestion of retaking it. Roadrunner 06:49, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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I think the name "Manchuria" itself is somewhat problematic --- post the very name (Manzhou) on a Chinese forum and you will get flamed. Perhaps the article should set that out a bit more clearly --- that Manchuria, as a name in itself, is NOT accepted by many people, and that the region it refers to is called Manchuria by some people, not all.

ran 06:17, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

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I do have a question about "Haishenwei was renamed Vladivostok" bit of the article. Vladivostok was founded by Russians, and the city has never been Chinese/Manchurian. I am thus wondering what "Haishenwei" refers to. Is this the name of the territory on which modern-day Vladivostok is located? In any case, this sentence should be either removed or clarified.--Ezhiki 15:08, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

"manzhouren"

To anon who made the latest edit: Are you sure? It's always been my impression that using "Manzhou" and "Manzhouren" is offensive, especially to people from that region. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 04:39, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Manzhouren is the old name of Manchu's people; now, the call themselves Manzu. I am a Dongbeiren, do noe call me Manzhouren.--[[User:Zy26|zy26 (Talk)]] 12:03, 2004 Nov 23 (UTC)

I totally have no problem being called Manchurian; as a matter of fact, I claim myself as Manchurian in most cases.--User:Manchurian Tiger Julu 10, 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're not our typical dongbeiren ;) -- ran (talk) 18:59, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup request: Stolen Excerpt

In contrast to Outer Manchuria, the part of Manchuria that is still part of China, usually called simply "Manchuria", can also be referred to as "Inner Manchuria".

• The above is clear as mud in the given article. If nothing else, the terms inner and outer M are so common that the cognizatti ought to make their meanings plain. The Outer arty seems clear enough, but this one seems to need clarified. (Sorry, I'm editting three majors at the moment!)Fabartus 02:49, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Would you like the suggest an alternative? -- ran (talk) 03:20, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with Fabartus... The sentence is trying to stuff too many ideas into one sentence. Why is Outer Manchuria even mentioned in a statement that says Inner Manchuria = Chinese part of Manchuria = simply "Manchuria". That's 4 terms right there.... What is the sentence's point? --Menchi 01:06, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Manchurian

I am a native Manchurian. I never feel insulted by being called "Manchurian". As a matter of fact, I feel more Manchurian than Chinese.

Manchurian Tiger July 6, 2005

Wait, are you Manchu? (满族) That makes a pretty big difference.

There's a confusion of terms here. "Manchuria" usually refers to "Northeast China" (东北), so when I said that people from Manchuria don't like being called that, I meant that Northeast Chinese (东北人) don't like to be called Manchurian (满洲人). This is definitely true for the majority of Manchuria's population, which is Han (汉族).

When you say you feel more Manchurian than Chinese, do you mean you feel more Manchu (满族) than Han (汉族), or do you mean you feel more like a person of Manchuria (满洲人) than a person of China (中国人)? -- ran (talk) July 7, 2005 01:07 (UTC)

Hi Ran. I'm a Manchurian (满洲人), although I'm not a Manchu. My ancestors were Koreans (Chao-Xian-ren) according to inscription found in the ancestry temple. However, growing up in Manchuria, I used to identify myself as Han because my residential certificate was signed up as Han for my ethnicity. A Han Dong-bei-ren is also a Manchurian. Just as an American does not have to be a native Amerian, i.e. an American Indian; a Manchurian does not have to be a native Manchu.

The whole thing about Manchuria was totally overtaken by the Chinese nationalist fanatics and international politics. There is very little voice heard from true Manchurians.

By the way, how do you post your message here besides using "edit"? Manchurian Tiger July 8, 2005

Well, your view seems to be the minority in Dongbei 东北. Most Han Chinese Dongbeiren (汉族 东北人) seem to be opposed to the term "Manchuria" (满洲) probably because of Manchukuo (满洲国).

To post a message, just use Edit... or the plus sign (+) which adds a new topic. -- ran (talk) July 8, 2005 21:35 (UTC)

Manchurian Tiger: when you sign your name, please don't give a link to an article (Manchurian Tiger)... the link should point to your user page (e.g. User:Manchurian Tiger). -- ran (talk) 18:58, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Why suck up to Red Chinese hyper-nationalism? Wikipedia should not be the Chinese version of the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, if some Han nationalists are offended by minorities, so what. What I (and many users) miss is a detailed number--how many Manchus lived in Manchuria in 1934? They were a "minority" but how big, how small. How large were the other non-Han groups?

Don't be so quick to stereotype either Chinese communism or Chinese nationalism. A lot of ultra-nationalists detest the current government. The Chinese version of Falun Gong-run Epoch Times, for example, denounced the government when it signed recent border agreements with Russia. Here's a direct quote: [1]

江泽民政府已通过和俄国签约，对沙皇时代通过不平等条约从中国获得的多达一百四十四万平方公里的土地（相当四十个台湾）全部一次性地法律性认可。那次签约意味著，今后千秋万代的中国人都失去了追索这些领土的法律根据，

I translate:

"The Jiang Zemin government has already signed an agreement with Russia, legally acknowledging Russia's acquisition of 1.44 million square km of territory (equivalent to 40 Taiwans) from China via unequal treaties during the Tsarist era. This agreement means that all future generations of Chinese have lost the legal basis to reclaim this territory."

Reclaim Outer Manchuria eh? I wonder what exactly happens to the self-determination of the millions of Russians who currently live there? (Wait... Manchuria was originally inhabited by Manchus, right? That appears to be what you care about the most. Well, it doesn't look like Epoch Times gives a hoot about their self-determination either...) Keep in mind that Epoch Times is Falun Gong-run and spends most of its time denouncing the Communist Party of China as an evil force. So why is it spreading "Red Chinese hyper-nationalism", in your own words?

Incidentally, this kind of "Blame the Communists for losing Mongolia, Outer Manchuria, Taiwan, Arunachal Pradesh, etc." game is very trendy among Chinese nationalists online nowadays. The Arunachal Pradesh issue is especially popular, since China claims it as a little slice of Tibet (indeed it is culturally Tibetan) but India controls it; China actually took in the Sino-Indian War, but gave it back later, a fact that Chinese ultranationalists get infuriated about. (I wonder what they would say to you if you went to them and suggested that, well, no part of Tibet should belong to China?) Of course the moderators get nervous and sometimes tell them not to be too obvious — because they're spreading anti-government, dissenting opinions!

In short, the world is a lot more complicated than you think. This is why we have the NPOV policy, so that no one can turn Wikipedia into the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, or any other type of biased encyclopedia that may or may not fit your tastes. -- ran (talk) 04:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Request by JYK

I am trying to research the pre WWII conflict between Russia and Japan in Manchuria. I understand that a number of full scale battles were fought resulting in a massive attack by Russian armour which ended the conflict. Can anyone direct me to sources giving details of this conflict. My interest arises from pondering why Russia felt sufficiently secure from Japanese attack after Germany invaded Russia to remove a number of Divisions from the Eastern to the Western front in time to defend Moscow. JYK

Battle of Lake Khasan and Battle of Halhin Gol are good starting points for your research. Basically, after these two battles, Japan no longer felt confident that it could defeat Soviet army, even with the Germans as a second front, so they turned against the United States instead.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 19:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, a start point on a discovery of a long pondered reason for Russian confidence in removing thousands of men from East to West at a crucial phase in Germany's invasion of Russia.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by JYK (talk • contribs) .

You are quite welcome.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 19:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Korean

This is an odd place to end up having this discussion, but I guess it's as good a place as any. User:Deiaemeth has made a number of assertions here and elsewhere that the kingdoms of Balhae, Goguryeo, and Buyeo were ethnically Korean.

To me -- and I may be missing something -- this seems far more like nationalism than useful information. Even if these kingdoms were of similar ancestry to modern Koreans, they (save perhaps Balhae) substantially predate the construction of a unitary "Korean" identity. Thus calling them "Korean" does not seem to tell the reader anything useful.

I may be mistaken in this, and that's why I would like to see some authoritative sources to support the claim of Korean ancestry. Deiaemeth has kindly provided the following links: [2] [3] [4] [5] . However, I have taken the liberty of commenting these out from the article, because they do not seem to have anything to do with the question at hand. As far as I can see, only the Infoplease link even mentions Goguryeo as a Korean state, and does not provide any further information to support this (reasonable) claim.

That these states were part of Korean history cannot be disputed; that they were Korean can be, and thus such an assertion needs some reputable support. What would be especially persuasive would be a history of China or Manchuria (rather than Korea) that identified these states as Korean. Is there such a text?-- Visviva 15:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

what i meant to say is that most internationally recognized publications refer to Balhae and Goguryeo as part of History of Korea, as contrary to Chinese claim that Balhae and Guguryeo people are part of Chinese ethnic groups. Sorry if you misunderstood me, I guess my statement was unclear. As usual, thank you for your great contributions to many articles on Wikipedia :). Have a nice day. Deiaemeth 20:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

To my understanding, the history of Balhae, Goguryeo and Buyeo, especially Balhae, is shared by Manchuria and Korea, but definitely not China. It ridiculous and makes no sense to claim the ancient kingdoms as part of today's nations that did not even exist in ancient times. In my opinion, both Korean and Chinese governments are guilty of trying to rewrite history to their own favor.--Manchurian Tiger 14:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

There's a related discussion going on right now at Talk:Balhae that may be of interest. --Yuje 03:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

discussed as part of korean history

Buyeo (state): these are the only mentions of the state in 2005 britannica deluxe:

• under Koguryo: "Koguryŏ is traditionally said to have been founded in 37 BC in the Tongge River basin of northern Korea by Chu-mong, leader of one of the Puyŏ tribes native to the area, but modern historians believe it is morelikely that the tribal state was formed in the 2nd century BC."

• under Korea, History of: The Three Kingdoms: "Apart from Chosŏn, the region of Korea developed into tribal states. To the north, Puyŏ rose in the Sungari River basin of Manchuria. Chin, which had emerged south of the Han River in the 2nd century BC, was split into three tribal states—Mahan, Chinhan, and Pyŏnhan."

• see also [6]

All these citations suggest that Buyeo/Fuyu/Puyo is part of Manchurian history rather than Korean history. "Part of Korean history" suggests a strong and biased Korean-POV.--Endroit 05:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Balhae:

• britannica [7] [8]
• encyc. world hist (bartleby.com) [9]
• columbia encyc. (infoplease.com) [10]
• u.s. lib of congress [11]
• met museum [12] [13]
• misc [14] [15] [16].

Goguryeo: feel free to look this up in any reputable reference work. Appleby 05:01, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been trying to discuss this with Appleby on his talk page, but regrettably, he hasn't responded so far.

Here're my original messages to him, in their entirety.

-- ran (talk) 08:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

(start)

I don't understand what you're trying to do. What exactly does this sentence mean anyways?

Let's try a few analogous examples:

• "Western Germany was at this time ruled by Charlemagne, which is usually described as a part of French history."
• "Most of Turkey was ruled by the Byzantine Empire, usually described as a part of Greek history."
• "Egypt was then conquered by the Persian Empire, usually described as a part of Iranian history."

Do you see how POV it is to make such statements? The Byzantine Empire ruled a very large area, so it is part of the history of all of the places it once ruled. The fact that we use a Greek word to call it means nothing; if we used a Slavic or Turkic name instead, it would still be part of the history of all of the places it once ruled.

In short, don't try to fit ancient states into modern boxes. Like the rest of the world, East Asia was a jumble of ethnic groups and histories, and the modern entities of "China", "Japan", "Korea" etc. only emerged at the end of it. To make a statement like "part of Korean history" about Bohai, etc. is petty and illogical. -- ran (talk) 23:02, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

When you reverted again, why did you not discuss?

Do you realize the problem with your logic? For example, the Byzantine Empire is a part of Greece's history. This is obvious. If I go to a page on the "history of Greece", I would expect to find information on the Byzantine Empire. But the Byzantine empire is also a part of the history of many other places: the remainder of the Balkan Peninsula, Asia Minor, the Levant, Egypt, etc. If I go out and say, "Egypt was a part of the Byzantine Empire which was a part of Greek history", that's fundamentally a strange statement, because as long as we're talking about the Byzantine Empire's activities in Egypt, then we're talking about the history of Egypt, and how it interacted with the history of Greece and all of the other places in the Byzantine Empire. In fact, if, say, someone inserted the line, "Cyprus, Turkey, the Levant, and Egypt were all part of the Byzantine Empire, which was a part of Greek history", based on the fact that he found a description of the Byzantine Empire in a history of Greece, I can only conclude that this person is a Greek nationalist who appears to have irredentist tendencies towards the entire Near East. Wouldn't you agree?

And so, the same with the Manchuria page. The fact that Goguryeo and Pohai are described as a part of a history of Korea means nothing -- of course they're a part of the history of Korea, they ruled over parts of Korea during that time. But they also ruled other parts outside Korea -- namely, Manchuria and the Russian Far East. To say that the history of Goguryeo and Pohai are a "part of the history of Korea", on a page that is about the history of Manchuria, is a very curious, if not self-contradictory statement to make. Because Goguryeo and Pohai were ancient cultures and states that spanned this entire area, their histories and cultures are entwined with the entire area. In other words, everything is a part of everything, so to speak. To exclusively claim some sort of "sovereignty" over multiethnic, border-spanning empires 1,000 years ago for another, different pair of states that exist today is not just strange -- it is also suspiciously irredentist and blatantly POV.

Also, I'm wondering why Fuyu, a state that existed in northern Manchuria, is being rendered in Korean. -- ran (talk) 03:22, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

(end)

all your questions are answered by the sources. honestly, i'm not here at wikipedia to chew the fat about my pet theories or philosophies. i'm trying to focus on contributing content from reputable, verifiable, npov english reference works. Appleby 17:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Manchuria = Manzhou?

Manchuria is a translation of the Chinese word Manzhou (Simplified Chinese: 满洲; Traditional Chinese: 滿洲; Pinyin: Mǎnzhōu).

Is this statement really true? I always thought Manzhou was a Chinese transcription of the Manchu language name: Manju. --Yuje 03:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmong

Someone is insisting on adding Hmong to the list of ethnic groups that have dominated Manchuria. Apparently there is a theory that the Hmong did pass through Manchuria. However, this seems to be just one among a set of theories which involve the Hmong potentially having come from more or less every region of Asia. [17] Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be anything in the known history of Manchuria which would seem to correspond to the Hmong. -- Visviva 22:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any possibility that Hmong are from Manchuria. They are obviously not the native Tungus people in Manchuria.--Manchurian Tiger 05:15, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

This article should be renamed

The English term for this region is now "Northeastern China," not Manchuria. The international press does not use "Manchuria," unless for historic contexts. No one in China uses the term Manchuria to refer to this region either. Naus 23:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

"Manchuria" is still used as the primary name by britannica [18] Encarta Columbia and American Heritage Appleby 00:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm an Manchurian, and I call it Manchuria when I talk about my homeland. There are more and more are doing the same. Replacing Manchuria with the fabricated name "Northeastern" is the commie's effort to eliminate our national identity, why Wiki has to help the commies?--Manchurian Tiger 05:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay then, let's change China to Northeastern Asia. Deiaemeth 07:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)