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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 80.223.217.219 (talk) at 21:36, 8 March 2013. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

References

Could some who knows how change the Gladstone Anderson article reefrence to this: http://web.archive.org/web/20120624223427/http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/Entertainment/Gladstone-Anderson--Key-player-in-rocksteady-s-genesis_11568423

Historical Timeline

I was wondering, can we really say rocksteady is a successor of ska? I mean there were two more waves of ska after it. Would it not make more sense to say it was developed from ska? Also, I don't agree with ska nd rocksteady being subgenres of reggae as it came after!

Yes, rocksteady is successor of ska. As in ska stylistically evolved into rocksteady during mid 60s, and then later rocksteady evolved into reggae. From there it diverges into dub and dancehall and other subgenres. What I'm trying to say that rocksteady is the successor to ska in the history of Jamaican music: that's perfectly accurate. The later waves of ska were revivals, not the original ska but a newer take on the music of the early 60s.

I understand and agree with you that rocksteady and ska shouldnt exactly be subgenres of reggae but many times, the term "reggae' is used to describe jamaican music in general. In that sense, they are subgenres of reggae, though its a bit confusing. Glassbreaker5791 02:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mento, Ska and Rocksteady are forms of Jamaican music. They are not reggae and shouldn't be treated as subgenres. In the UK in the late 60s, Jamaican music was called "Bluebeat" because people associated the record label with Jamaican music. Similarly, the term "reggae" is sometimes incorrectly used to describe all styles of Jamaican music in a generic fashion, but this is not an accurate way to describe the different styles. 69.3.109.176 16:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ska Dancing?

As it is "ska dancing" links to "Skank". Skanking is a very common dance performed to ska but it is far from being the only ska-related dance. Linking ska dancing to skanking makes it seem as though they are the same, which they are not. Its too misleading and so I'm removing the link. Glassbreaker5791 03:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC) –—[reply]

Having spent some time in Jamaica researching, I believe that "Skanking" is not the name of a dance, it is a patios word that *means* dancing.

Lordkoos (talk) 22:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Revisions

I originally contributed much of this page in 2007. Since that time I've seen various edits, many of which are not an improvement. If it's an edit that clarifies or tightens up the text, or corrects syntax and so forth that is great, but some of the newer contributions have made the definition of Rocksteady music less clear. I don't have a lot of ego attached to this page but there have been many edits that are poorly written and others that are confusing in their technical description of the music. For example, the average person does not know what an "offbeat" is. It is a Jamaican musician's reference to upbeats, AKA the 8th notes that fall between the main 4/4 beats. I have tried to describe the music in terms that musicians would use, as I am a musician myself. At any rate, please know what you are talking about before making capricious edits to the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordkoos (talk • contribs) 04:46, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are absolutely correct in your statement. Jamaican musicians refer to the "offbeat" as being the AND count in between quarter notes. Quarter notes being 1, 2, 3, 4. 8ths are then counted 1, and, 2, and, 3 and 4, and. The skank or "jang" (depending on who is describing it) in Rocksteady are the guitar/piano stabs which then fall on this "offbeat" Here is Ernest Ranglin, one of the creators of Ska, explaining the offbeat. He counts 1, 2, 3, 4 and plays the upstroke "chank" in between each count. aka. the "and" beat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr0fVJ0ZbII#t=0m18s

For further explanation here is Bob Marley verbally demonstrating the 3 different feels of the offbeat. The Ska is a quick "chank," the Rocksteady is a slower sharper "jang" and the reggae is a "chicka". But all 3 are on that offbeat, just a different "feel" to it. This is a far more valuable explanation than you will find in ANY textbook or sheet music. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNuyeTd5EAQ— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk) 13:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Music samples would greatly improve understanding of the genre. 80.223.147.182 (talk) 21:48, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Tamlins doing Stop That Train. Notice the clicks of 1 2 3 and then a single snare hit on the 4 for the count in. When the band comes in you don't start counting double time with the piano on the 2 and 4. Piano on the "and" Keep it rocking steady. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwq4Xu4xREM

Click...Click....Click....SNARE 1 *jang* SNARE *jang* 3 *jang* SNARE *jang* — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk) 03:00, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


I just watched Rocksteady: The Roots Of Reggae and there's a scene of Dawn Penn writing down the sheet music for "No, No, No" Main groove is as follows: 3 bars of D 3 bars Am 3 bars D 4 bars Am then comes the shift "cuz you LEFT meeee baabby" where it goes to: 2 bars E 2 bars D 4 bars Am Back to the start. Should I screen capture it for verification? Or will that just get denied as not being a "reliable source?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk) 05:44, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Beats in a bar

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a bar in rocksteady has 4 beats. These are beats 1, 2, 3, 4. There is no 'AND' beat. The article needs to be based on reliable sources, not how someone interprets someone counting in a Youtube video.--Michig (talk) 05:52, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is very much the "and" beat. Ska is reverse R&B as shown by Ernest Ranglin in that very same youtube video.

Feel free to debate Ernest Ranglin and his "interpretation" of a genre of music he helped CREATE. You should humble yourself and LISTEN to what he says.

It's counted 1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 AND. Listen to Ernest as he counts. It's not hard, he actually counts FOR you. He counts 1...2....3....4.... and plays an upstroke on every "and". Did you even watch the video? Here's the link again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr0fVJ0ZbII#t=0m18s

As Hopeton Lewis states in "Rocksteady: The Roots Of Reggae" he came in to record "Take It Easy" and "{he} couldn't follow the Ska beat. It was too fast. I don't know, maybe I was lazy. But I asked Gladstone Anderson to slow it down"

Ska changed into Rocksteady because "things were moving to fast" in Kingston those days. The tempo was dropped a few BPM, the upstroke guitar on the "AND" in Ska became a downstroke for Rocksteady and the "walking bass" got broken up into a more syncopated feel. Count any Rocksteady tune with the Kick/Snare combo on the 2 and 4 and every JANG of the guitar and piano on the AND. The Kick/Snare combo on the 2 and 4 is the basis of the "One Drop" which does NOT mean you make the hit (drop) on the 1...it means you DROP the one. As in, drop it out...leave it out.

Here's one more source for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmye9DB9GLk#t=1m55s Stranger Cole and Gladstone Anderson (2 more pioneers of Ska/Rocksteady) doing "Love Me Today" with the Alpha Boys. Alpha Boys school is a place where numerous Ska/Rocksteady/Reggae Musicians were taught. Listen to the stick clicks...the kid clicks on the 1, 2, 3 and that's it. Then on the 4 he starts his roll which ends with the closed high hat on the 1 and he starts playing straight 8ths. The very first piano stab comes in on the "AND" of the first beat of the first measure. (not counting the one measure for the clicks and roll) The first bar would be when the horns, flutes etc all come in. You can count quarters as 1, 2, 3, 4 but if you count 8ths you count as 1, and, 2, and, 3, and, 4, and.


— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk) 12:10, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I could start an RFC on whether we go with established consensus backed up by reliable sources, or with your analysis of Youtube clips, but I suspect I know what the outcome would be. Reliable sources are always going to take precedence. --Michig (talk) 16:22, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So...do you have any reliable sources?--Michig (talk) 19:58, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The handful of Jamaicans that created the music are not reliable enough for you? Or would you rather have a book written by a American Professor in a University? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk) 21:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Go and read Wikipedia:Reliable sources then come back and answer the question again.--Michig (talk) 21:45, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I guess those verbal QUOTATIONS are not good? Ok. Don't really care anymore. I play guitar in a Reggae band with Jamaicans. This is the way it's counted and that's the way it's done. As long as we count it that way in rehearsal, we're all right. But what you're saying here is about the same as hearing B.B. King play the blues, explain how it's done, show you how it's done. But then turn around and say "That's not right. That's not what it says in this book."— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk) 22:04, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you not understand the concept of people playing notes between beats in a bar, or slightly out of sync with the beats, or that people can count in a different way to how the beats are represented when the music is written down? You still haven't come up with a single reliable source.--Michig (talk) 22:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wait what? Playing notes between the beats of a bar? You mean like if you were counting the beats as 1 2 3 4 you play on the "and" count between the beat? 1 *jang* 2 *jang* 3 *jang* 4 *jang* I'm starting to wonder if YOU understand the concept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk) 22:23, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm the guy who created this wikipedia entry originally. Michig, UTC is absolutely correct in how the beat is counted. He also posted plenty of proof if people have the wit to understand it. I've been playing professionally for over 40 years, many different kinds of music. In the early 1990s I played with the Defenders for a year, a reggae group that consisted of former members of the Gladiators and Yabby You bands, Clinton Fearron, Alric Forbes, etc. I also spent much time in Jamaica in the late 1980s and early 90s and at one point had one of the best JA vinyl collections on the planet. I'm not mentioning this to blow my own horn, but to let people know that I might know what I'm talking about. I'm trying to be civil here, but I wish people who don't know WTF they are talking about would quit trying to edit this page unless they are actually adding some new (correct) information, because all it does is confuse the reader. I guess the internet makes everybody an expert now... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordkoos (talk • contribs) 07:16, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


What can I say? If you can't figure it out when it is counted out to you by pioneers of the musical genre in question...you'll never figure it out. As I said, I give up. I also have no problem restoring the article to its previous state. I tried to help and make it accurate, show a few videos of people who have authority on the subject. But in the end I really have no problem allowing new students of Rocksteady read this page and get bad information.

EDIT: Forget that...I put the article as to how it SHOULD be. Nothing worse than WRONG info. "I read it on the internet, so it must be true!" etc etc etc Also...the Ska and Reggae articles should be changed accordingly as well since it's the same offbeat feel and same way of counting. It's just different methods of playing.

Ska has a drumbeat that's more of a swing feel with a walking bassline and the guitar upstroke "ska" on the "and" Rocksteady the drums are more straight feel, syncopated bass, and a straight downstroke "jang" on guitar Reggae is similar to rocksteady but it has the more "achicka" feel to it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk • contribs)

Err, and "I decided this is correct from some Youtube videos" is an ok approach to writing an encyclopedia, is it? This whole project is based on verifiability and reliable sources. You need to get with the program on these issues. Would you consider Lloyd Bradley a reliable source? Bradley is the author of the books This is Reggae Music and Bass Culture, and operated his own sound system before concentrating on writing. This is what he has to say: "Although classic rocksteady stayed in a 4/4 time and on the off beat, the way such a notion was expressed had altered enormously. The heartbeat of this new rhythm was a slowed-down tempo dictated by the kick drum, which was now kicking it on the third beat only instead of the second and fourth beats as it would have done in ska." (This Is Reggae Music, p. 165)--Michig (talk) 19:12, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I gave you the example of the handwritten notation that Dawn Penn wrote out while doing "No, No, No". Count along. I'm gonna go with the hand written notation by Ms Penn rather than what a British Musician may have interpreted it as and decided to write a book.

Here's...once again...a "youtube video"...(even tho these youtube videos are clips from documentaries made by the BBC and such...) This clip is taken from "Rocksteady: The Roots Of Reggae" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ZXl5tgMi0 At the 5 -10 second mark the camera pans across her handwritten notation as she is sitting down writing it out. Feel free to challenge the method she writes out the notation to her own song. But I suggest you open the video in 2 tabs, pause one on the notation and let the other one play. Then play a little game of "count along" Or you can just look at it like "If the chords are played on beat 2 and 4 of each bar....why the hell are there 4 chords notated per bar in her sheet music?".........but I think you may already know the answer to that.

I have given you videographic proof after proof after proof after proof after *puuuuuke*....yes...they ARE youtube clips, but they are sourced from legit documentaries or live performances. They are videos of Jamaicans who were the creators and originators of this music either performing it, demonstrating it, or even writing out the sheet music of it.

Yet you continue to quote "foreign" material and other musicians written interpretations as your sources. The sources I have provided are from the people who wrote the music.

If it's counted at double time it loses the feel. "Who feels it, knows it"

Also, Chinna Smith doesn't have a clue how to count in a song. Why is he counting...."1.....2....3....4..and"........AND??? AND???.....THERE *IS* NO "AND" BEAT...this foolish Chinna guy doesn't have a clue what he's doing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPTxkm_bokk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk • contribs)

So...any reliable sources yet?--Michig (talk) 10:08, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I read your user page. You should take some hints from your own list of annoyances. My only real source is my ears and sense of rhythm. Which you obviously don't have. Bring in an admin with a set of ears to moderate, cuz yours don't seem to work. So do what you will. I'm done. Even after showing vid after vid after vid you just can't say "I'm wrong". Not my problem anymore. But here's my question....got any reliable resources that aren't British? How about a source from a Jamaican musician? Since this is an article about Jamaican music after all. Seems a little weird to be sourcing what British people may have interpreted it as.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.94.17 (talk • contribs)

When is it going to sink in that this project is based on verifiability and reliable sources, not individual 'expert' editors deciding what is 'right'? --Michig (talk) 11:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When will it sink in that Jamaicans playing their own music is a reliable resource? Like I said, change it to whatever you feel like. If people read it the old "skank on 2 and 4" method....well....the "heartbeat rhythm" feel is gone. So I don't mind people learning the wrong way, I just won't be buying any of their records. BTW...what some British musician wrote in a book is reliable source and not just his opinion and interpretation? Well, according to that rule I guess "Mein Kampf" is 100% accurate. Keep in mind that alot of "black music" is spoken....it's not played from sheet music per se, but played by feel and by listening.

I think you've answered my question - never.--Michig (talk) 11:19, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So edit the article to how you think it should be. *end*

This is an idiotic discussion. The upstrokes fall between the four beats (the "pulses", if you will) of each bar. The kick and snare fall on (or around) the beats. There is nothing about the Lloyd Bradley quote which would lead a rational person to believe otherwise. Quite aside from anything else, if you were to attempt to interpret the upstrokes as falling on the second and fourth beats of each bar, the average rocksteady song would be about 180 beats per minute, which clearly is not the case. Camrock (talk) 01:16, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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