Talk:Creatio ex nihilo

Hindu veiws

I'm not sure but the followiung looks like a polemic against Hnduism?

2- believers then have to attribute all the evil ingrained in material life to God, making Him partial and arbitrary, which does not logically accord with His nature

==

I think the following section is arguing the wrong way around? Its more likely that the myths described a 'creatio ex nihilo' that the philosophers retreated from.

Chaos in it's original meaning is 'void' or 'abyss' both meaning nothing. Parminides arguing after Hesiod introduced the idea Ex Nihilo, nihil fit, nmothing comes from nothing.It was the Orphics that gave it's meaning of pre-existing substance and Ovid that gave it the later meaning 'confusion'.

"Before the last few centuries of the pre-Christian era, ancient Near Eastern mythologies envisioned the creation of the world as resulting from the actions of a god or gods upon already-existing primeval matter - the waters of chaos.[citation needed] The Greek philosophers came to question this (on a priori grounds), discussing the idea that a primeval Being (not conceived as a god or as God in the Christian sense) must have created the world out of nothing"

I don't know of any Greek Philosopher that argued for creatio ex nihilo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.40.49 (talk) 11:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The following paragraph from this section is questionable gobbledygook. An authoritative reference should be provided, or the paragraph should be deleted.

"Additional support for this belief is that something cannot arise from nothing; this is a contradiction. Therefore there must always have been something. But it is scientifically impossible for matter to always have existed. What is more, matter is contingent, that is it is not logically impossible for it not to exist, and nothing else depends on it. So there must have been a Creator who is not contingent and not composed of matter: this Being is God."

Sschale (talk) 08:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC) This article is highly questionable based on there is an upstart winery in British Columbia's Okanagan Valley of the same name. Wikipedia is NOT a marketing tool, but a forum for education and broadening one's base of knowledge.209.121.8.54 (talk) 04:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I didn't realise that "quotes from the bible" counted as arguments in favour of ex nihilo. The kalam or first cause arguments are actual arguments, but I've never heard the "its written down in a book" argument before. Perhaps someone needs to make seperate sections: one for actual arguments, and another for passages in the bible which support the ex nihilo interpretation of the bible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.33.195 (talk) 15:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed from article pending verification

An opinion held by some Orthodox Jewish scholars is that the Book of Genesis contains a mystical interaction between God and all of creation. A faSmall Textmiliar name of God for Christians, "alpha and omega", comes from the idea of God being the cause of all creation. The Hebrew equivalent of the letter "alpha" is "aleph", both letters being the equivalent to the letter 'A'. Therefore, since God alone represents the letter 'A', the next letter in the alphabet, 'B', or "bet" obviously is situated after the letter 'A'. Because then, the Torah begins with the letter 'B', in the word "bereshit" - or, in the beginning - some have posited the idea that we can conclude that God existed before the Torah, but that the Torah was the next thing to exist in the universe, and that this relationship between God and the Torah supports the theory of ex nihilo, due to the fact that the letter 'A' is situated before the letter 'B' in the alphabet.

• I don't know where this nonsense came from, so for reasons of unverifiability, I've moved it to the talk page. Anyone who can cite and make sense of the above passage can reinsert it at their will. —№tǒŖïøŭş4lĭfė ♫♪ 01:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

No but I can say that modern Hebrew is based on Koine Greek. That of course means that the Old Testament was not written in modern Hebrew. LoveMonkey 12:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Nota bene — Both №tǒŖïøŭş4lĭfė ♫♪ and LoveMonkey have absolutely no idea what they were talking about —— Notorious is ignorant of basic Jewish tradition and so uses that as a justification for removing it from the article; and then LoveMonkey puts forth completely False linguistic information regarding Hebrew language. Modern Hebrew (which I as a non-Jew studied at a secular, public university) is most certainly NOT based on Koine Greek... It was a revival and renovation of Biblical Hebrew... I know this, because I could read the Hebrew Bible with a minimum of trouble after learning Modern Hebrew. It sounds as if there is Anti-Judaizing prejudice at work here if not up-front, in the background somewhere... Such ill-informed, un-scholarly work is the bane of Wikipedia. Who has allowed it to stand so for so many years? This is NOT to say that this material should be added back in; I'll have to think about that... But it is rather to be honestly appalled at the ugly, ignorant, stupid and ill-judged aspects of Wikipedia. It's this sort of thing that justifies policy by professors, teachers and other educators and academics forbidding use of Wikipedia as a source for intellectual work. Emyth (talk) 13:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Removed from article pending rewrite, citation, proof of notability etc. etc.

"Social architecture There is a process by which one creates a social structures by providing a space. So for example you can rent a space in a commercial district in a town and simply leave it open for others to provide the inspiration for creating something in it. The vacuum of the space attracts something to manifest in it. This process is also given the name Edwarding after Matthew Edwards who created Circlecenter (circlecenter.com) based on this principle.

There is a yang form of social architecture where you prescribe and design more of what you want to see. There is a yin form of social architecture where you allow more of the structure to be built by the participants. Open space technology and world cafe are more yin forms. Edwarding is a relatively yin form of social architecture."

This may make sense to whoever wrote it, but to me it just seems like a rant from an acid fiend that is thinking on a different wavelength to the average Wikipedia reader. If it is ok can we see some context please? And proof of why this is not just some cult's pseudo-philosophy would be nice. Howboutpete 22:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

new theory with a myspace blog

I found an arguement against Ex Nihilo on a myspace blog but i don't want to post it without giving the guy any credit, and wikipedia isn't letting me source the blog. Is there anyway to work around this? ProductofSociety

Strange passage

I removed this passage from the article.

---

- For an examination of how the doctrine arose originally in Gnosticism and then was adopted by early Church leaders to shore up doctrines of divine determinism, see Gerhard May, Creatio Ex Nihilo: The Doctrine of ‘Creation out of Nothing’ in Early Thought. trans. A. S. (Worrall. Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1994).

---

This passage seems to miss the point of the book (which is very effectively refuted) The books point was that ex nihilio was a second century invention. As the review states.

---

"But it seems that we have here sufficient references to creation out of nothing to call into question the assertion that this doctrine was nothing but a late second-century phenomenon." And again..

---

"We noted earlier that Professor May does not think that the text of the Bible demands belief in creation ex nihilo (p. 24). Unfor-tunately, he does little to defend this claim. While he makes passing reference to certain biblical passages that seem to hint at the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo, he does not seriously interact with them. He focuses on patristic study (as his subtitle indicates) rather than on biblical exegesis. This turns out to be a weakness for May because, if properly done, sound biblical exegesis refutes the notion that creation out of nothing is a mere theological invention. For instance, Rom 4:17 (where God is said to call into being things that are not) and Heb 11:3 (where the visible world is not created from anything observable) are passages which May simply writes off as fitting in with other statements of hellenistic Judaism - statements that seem to affirm absolute creation out of nothing but are actually only asserting belief in world-formation."

---

And most importantlyIt appears the books message is that Gnosticism did not teach or believe or create the ex nihilio concept, but prompted Christians to take the position to counter what was gnostic.
Indeed, May gives the false impression that creatio ex nihilo was nothing more than the invention of well-meaning Christian theologians who were trying to defend what they believed to be the biblical notions of God's absolute sovereignty, freedom, and omnipotence in the face of heretical gnostic doctrines.

---

This is a farcry from Christianity adopting from Gnosticism a gnostic doctrine. LoveMonkey 13:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Question regarding use of the phrase "attained a highly developed"

The second paragraph begins with: "A number of philosophers in ancient times attained a highly developed concept of God as the supreme ruler of the world, but they failed to develop the concept of God as the absolute cause of all finite existence."

It seems to me that considering concepts of God or gods in terms of higher or lesser development could be conceived as value-laden. Both "development" and "attainment" tend to imply a level of achievement. Neither the concept of ex nihilo nor the history of the term calls for phrasing in terms of achievement, development, etc. Indeed, such phrasing seems to violate the objectivity of Wikipedia. I would suggest removing this from the article. Alternatively, I would suggest that if there is a historical record of value judgement being placed on this concept, then it be recognized, and recognized as such (opinion). Chuckhumming 21:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about, It might be that you do not understand what the sentence means? did you notice the comma that separates the two different parts. The first part talks about their ideas about God, while the second part goes on to say that in those complex and well reasoned ideas for God they had not developed the concept of ex nihilo creation.

Maybe it would be more clear if it said "developed a sophisticated and complex concept of God" since they were highly rational models with ideas that are very often still used to this day when talking about God, while religious models are based on revelation with an admixture of rational arguments about the nature of God. It might help to read the reference given. Hardyplants 09:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

What makes it more sophisticated and complex? What is its connection to "rationality"? The fact that this concept was used in Western philosophy? 69.232.198.53 04:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"more" sophisticated than what? and what concept?

The connection to "rationality" is that the ideas were based on logical arguments. Philosophical arguments for God are generally different than religious arguments about God. The point is that ancient philosophers had gone over all types of arguments about the nature of God and gods and His/their relation to the physical world but they did not develop ex nihilo creation. Hardyplants 06:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Pre-biblical theories of ex nihilio

I take issue with this paragraph:

A number of philosophers in ancient times attained a highly developed concept of God as the supreme ruler of the world, but did not develop a concept of God as the absolute cause of all finite existence. Before the biblical idea of creation, myths envisioned the world as being preexisting matter acted upon by a god or gods that reworked this material into the present world. Only in the Bible and the religious thought that developed out of its world-view do we see the formulation of ex nihilo creation.

The source, the Catholic Encyclopedia, supports this by stating:

Though some of the pagan philosophers attained to a relatively high conception of God as the supreme ruler of the world, they seem never to have drawn the next logical [logical?] inference of His being the absolute cause of all finite existence. ... puerile story of the cosmogony corrupted by polytheistic myths. [vs. the mature story?] .... Paganism and the Oriental heresies had waned.

However, "ex nihilo" isn't restricted to the volitional activity of a God. Some have argued (e.g., Eric Voegelin) that Hesiod's Chaos in Theogony was nothingness from which everything emerged by means of the cosmic force "eros". Pherecydes of Syros countered Heriod by asserting that the gods always existed. Nor is there unanimous agreement that the Genesis account has to be interpreted as "ex nihilo". Plato's rational creative force of the demiurge should be explored also. I believe that a) the pre-Socratic and Socratic arguments need to be included, b) the lede should be modified to be more expansive and c) less emphasis on one theological argument (Catholic) should be used in the lede. Thoughts? ∴ Therefore | talk 18:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

See http://books.google.com/books?id=JeXteXhnJWkC&pg=PA492&lpg=PA492&dq=theogony+and+christianity&source=web&ots=TmjKpdhqmI&sig=iRnUdz1rAlLfSkzu3H1ttjlvL3E#PPA493,M1

As a possible starting place. In some of the Greek concepts the Gods have a beginning, others have prefect order that gives rise to chaos that produce the world and the things in it. It might be useful to present the distinctions between the Christian and Pagan concepts in relation to cosmology. Hardyplants (talk) 05:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

At the end of the "Judeo-Christian views" section, there is an uncited statement that it is scientifically impossible for matter to exist forever. I'm wondering if this could either be elaborated on a bit or removed entirely, because I'm not entirely sure what scientific theory or principle this is referring to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.104.200 (talk) 05:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Scientific Views

Though this information may be relevant, this section seems to be lacking an elaboration on how exactly the view that matter and energy correspond to ex nihilo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.146.172.157 (talk) 00:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

this article deals with theology, not physics. You want vacuum fluctuation, which is an article on physics, not theology. I know there are books of the quantum quackery flavour that draw idle parallels between theology and physics. These are neither WP:DUE to serious articles on theology, nor to serious articles on physics, but need to be delegated to articles that actually focus on these ideas, apparently dubbed "Theophysics". See also WP:FRINGE for the proper treatment of such ideas. --dab (𒁳) 10:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested removal or rewrite.

Under: "History of the idea of ex nihilo" The sentence "...often personified in the form of a fight between a culture-hero deity and a chaos monster in the form of a dragon (the chaoskampf motif). * This is also the scenario envisaged by the authors of the Hebrew Genesis creation narrative.*"

This implies that the Hebrew Genesis narrative assumes the 'chaos monster' view of creation, which it patently does not do.

131.111.192.100 (talk) 20:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Under: Opposition within the Christian theological tradition

'"When God began to create...the earth was a formless void",[7] implying that God worked with pre-existing materials.'

A "void" is a "pre-existing material"? That doesn't make sense, and sounds more like one persons opinion of that translation of the Hebrew line. The next paragraph holds a better example using a different translation of the Hebrew line.

Request removal or rewrite.99.191.253.7 (talk) 11:57, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

This is a case for {{refimprove}}. The point is indeed an "opinion", only it is an opinion of a certain notability in Christian theology. The reference given is The new Oxford annotated Bible, but it isn't made explicit what the annotation to the verse in question is.

As far as I know it is undisputed that there is no creatio ex nihilo in Genesis. The concept did not exist during the Near Eastern Iron Age. As the article makes clear, the re-interpretation of Genesis in these terms is a product of Hellenistic Judaism. --dab (𒁳) 12:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

=== The problem with this section is lack of balance. If you are going to list the specific arguments against the traditional Christian view of creation "ex nihilo", then the traditional arguments for "ex nihilo" should be listed as well, and the specific arguments for "ex nihilo" creation are not listed. At least somewhere in the article they should be spelled out, just as Professor Ord's arguments are. Also, if some of the early Christian writers made statements that implied they did not believe in ex nihilo creation, those statements should be included in the article. That Philo speculated on the pre-existance of matter does not necessarily follow that he believe in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.51.147.97 (talk • contribs)

Agreed. "We have no evidence in the history of the universe after the big bang..." The big bang is a theory in direct opposition to creation, being stated as fact. --"Chase" (talk) 18:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

the section was indeed flawed. People keep mixing up Christian theology (Church fathers) with "Old Testament scholarship", i.e. scholarly analysis of the 5th century BC text, never mind the Church fathers. If the article could just for a minute stop conflating the two, it would become perfectly apparent that

• the text of Genesis as it stood in the 5th century BC did not assume creatio ex nihilo
• the early Christian thinkers from at least the 2nd century did assume creatio ex nihilo

There is no contradiction between these two statements. At what point and by what processes during 450 BC and AD 150 the idea became dominant is another question. --dab (𒁳) 10:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

latin legal term

Why is this under the category latin legal term? It is latin, but I can't see any use in legal.... please remove the category, or add reference to use in court. 59.148.232.130 (talk) 08:52, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Think "baseless." Although I hit this looking for examples of usage before I found actual examples of usage - one of those things you know you've seen somewhere but apparently is less common than you'd think (argument that a court should reconsider mistakenly granting an "ex nihilo request" etc.). --72.248.181.10 (talk) 21:29, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

'Judaeo-Christian theologians ' section not jewish

Hi,

It seems to me this section present only christian theology. The only one "jewish" is Philo, and its views do not reflect modern Jewish theology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.69.227.91 (talk) 07:24, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Very good point... Connect it with my observation above (the N.B. comment in the second talk section Re: Removed from article pending verification about Bereshit and the Hebrew Alephbet)...and I suggest that this is a real problem. But what should we do about it? The ostensive topic of the article is a phrase used mostly in Christian theology. Is it also used in Jewish contexts? I notice that JewishEncyclopedia.com has an article (CREATION http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=853&letter=C) that addresses this and provides Hebrew for "ex nihilo" - "יש מאין" (which is also used to mean "from scratch" LOL!) Let's see what can be done. BTW, sign in and be identified so we know whom we are talking with... Four tildas "~" at the end of your post will do it for you. Emyth (talk) 14:38, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ex Nihil, not Ex Nihilo

"Nihil, Nihil, n." is an indeclinable noun. It doesn't change to "nihilo" when changed into the ablative. Just sayin'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.77.81 (talk) 18:48, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

==> look up nihilum, nihili

"It is scientifically impossible for matter to always have existed."

The statement appears under "Logical Approaches": "But (this account continues) it is scientifically impossible for matter to always have existed." How was that conclusion made? I can visualize a universe with no beginning and no end, where matter always existed in some shape or form... Zaximus (talk) 20:37, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Opposition within modern Christian theology

Since there was a paragraph that discussed the LDS view of Ex Nihilo, I added the JW view to the paragraph a few weeks ago as it seemed informative to the reader. Someone edited the main text, however, and included this around the JW view:

"Does the following belong here? Although accurate clearly the following is mostly supportive of creation and not against as this section is entitled, additionally it is a doctrinal statement."

I moved this suggestion to the talk page where it belongs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.51.220.120 (talk) 19:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Article Split or move content

The sections on Computer Science and the military seem out of place in this article. All the usages appear unrelated to each other. I then suggest the article be renamed to Ex Nihilo (Theology) or Ex Nihilo (Philosophy). I doubt reliable sources group this collection of sections together so nor should we. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Incomprehensible quadruple negative sentence

Probably the worst constructed "correct" sentence i've ever seen: "Moreover, matter is contingent: it is not logically impossible for it not to exist, and nothing else depends on it." Someone please turn this into something comprehensible for sane humans. :P — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.82.132.241 (talk) 19:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

No mention of Thomas Aquinas?

Why is there no mention of Thomas Aquinas in this article? Thanks—Geremia (talk) 02:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

What I learned from Catholic education about ex nihilo and a nihilo or nemine

There is a distinction between creation from nothing and creation by nothing or no one.

There cannot be creation ex nihilo or from nothing literally, with nothing understood as the material of which created things are made by God, for nothing is nothing and cannot be anything of which anything else is made as the material of composition; it is impossible even just in concept.

And there cannot be creation by nothing or no one, because creation is the making of something which cannot make itself, for if it can make itself then there is no need for it to make itself since it already exists, what it can do is to change itself.

That is called creation a nihilo or nemine, literally meaning creation by nothing or no one, nothing or no one is understood as the agent doing the creation, which is also impossible even just in concept.

God always exists, that is the teaching of the Catholic Church, and He is the creator of everything that exists that is not Himself.

So?

Catholic theologians are left to themselves on how to explain God creating something from nothing, for from nothing nothing can be created.

The answer is "it is a mystery" of the Christian faith, that God created everything from nothing; there are many mysteries in the Christian faith in particular in the Roman Catholic school of the Christian faith, for example of another mystery, the changing of bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christian by the priest during Mass, which then body and blood of Jesus Christian in the appearance of bread and wine are eaten by Catholics in Holy Communion.

For myself I put it this way which I think is all right with the Catholic Church although I am no longer Catholic:

Creation ex nihilo means God created everything from nothing understanding nothing as any pre-existing thing not created by God: in other words, God did not create everything from any pre-existing thing that is not God Himself.

But there is as far as I can think in the Roman Catholic way (although I am no longer Roman Catholic) there is nothing against the Christian faith in particular of the Roman Catholic school, that God used His thought to create everything that is not Himself, so that God's thought is the in a way what we might call material of which everything is created by Him that is not Himself.

That saves the ultimate supremacy of God in that if God wants to, He can stop thinking and everything created by Him will pass into nothingness, i.e. God in effect annihilates everything He has created.

You see that word, annihilate, it comes from the Latin base of nihil, meaning nothing, that is where the phrase ex nihilo comes from.

112.198.79.96 (talk) 20:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)Pachomius

Gap Theory Diagram

This should be removed, in my opinion. It claims to present the point of view of 'Abrahamic Philosophy', which I guess is supposed to mean all types of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, but in reality it reflects the views only of a subgroup of Christian old-earth creationists. The 'fall of ha-Satan' part is a particularly offensive bit--the point here seems to be to try to Judaize the non-Jewish concept of a fallen Satan by applying the Hebrew title which is used in Job for the Accuser.CharlesMartel (talk) 22:48, 23 July 2012 (UTC)CharlesMartel

What does ex nihilo fit finiura mean... it means nothing comes from nothing out... could be a new pointer in philosophy, or so I heard — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.209.46.224 (talk) 13:50, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

"A literal reading of Genesis"

Under the section History of the idea of creatio ex nihilo, a sentence begins: "Church Fathers opposed a literal reading of Genesis..." But this is begging the question by presupposing that a literal reading of Genesis opposes creation ex nihilo. In point of fact, many modern commentators (e.g., C. John Collins, Genesis 1-4, p. 50-53) arrive at the opposite conclusion--namely, that a literal reading supports creation from nothing. I propose having this sentence removed. Kyledi (talk) 20:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Invalid refutation of Primum Movens

Aristotle and greek philosophers talk about "The word" (logos) as the animator of the universe. "Primum Movens" is the fundamental and absolute animator of the universe. Aristotle talks about divine consciousness, and these arguments are also the basis of "Natural Law" (lex naturalis). It is clear that he holds what is now considered the esoteric view, of divine consciousness as first cause, and sustainer of everything.

Also refuting a "prime mover" based on claiming that it does not need a beginning is failure to understand the argument.

Infinite regression does not exist, as infinity must be nothing (transcendent, timeless, physicalless). It has no beginning, and no series of events. So thus you need this dualism, of creator and created, for a whole logical argument. And creation is physical. And the physical logically thus requires the non-physical first cause, prime mover. Animator, lifeforce, etc.

The concept ex-nihilo, is also a bit flawed, since God IS nothing. Creator of every thing. God orders new things into existence, but one should probably avoid the term "ex-nihilo", "out of nothing", because they are not derived of nothing. They are created entirely new.

Peace Be With You.