Talk:Thierry Jamin

Uncorrect and unbalanced

The article previously posted was uncorrect and unbalanced, showing Mr. Jamin as a great explorer and archaelogist. Unfortunetely he has only a diplome in history, but he is not archaelogist. As it is stated he has started a third cycle in history and archaeology, but he is not able to show a degree or master in archaeology. All his explorations were unsuccessfully. He visited the petrogliphs of Pusharo (discovered in 1921 by Vicente de Cenitagoya) and launched a fringe theory about the gliphs being a “map to Paititi”. It has been proven many times by serious antropologists (like Mr. Hostnig), that Pusharo has notingh to do with the Incas or Paititi, but Jamin published a book with fringe theories concerning the matter. He also said that he discovered others gliphs, or "geogliphs" but nobody believed him, and he was accused to have altered with photoshop a picture of the jungle in order to show that he discovered the “Pusharo geogliphs”. Pyramids of Pantiacolla, or Paratoari. He reached the site only few years later the official discovery (1996, American explorer G. Deyermenjian). Even here he diffused strange and fringe theories such as the fact that the Pyramids were a ceremonial center of the Incas. Hualla Fortress and other sites in the Lacco valley: those sites were all discovered by Peruvian explorer Carlos Neuenschwander in 1960/70 and not by French Jamin, who was only a visitor/traveller with fringe theories. His research in Machu Picchu: the official government (Peruvian Minister of Culture) refused the permit that Mr. Jamin asked to excávate in Machu Picchu for lack of historical and archeological experience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arkeology (talk • contribs) 23:10, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you have sources to back up your claims? §FreeRangeFrog^croak 03:11, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Gregory? Sebastien?,

Since this page is up, fake users are trying to alter it. It happened twice already and most of your allegations are the same than the ones spreaded out by an envious individual who spends most of his time persecuting Jamin. Anyway, here are your answers.

First of all, Jamin's resume has been sourced and it is available from this page. You can easily find it on several of his personal websites. As indicated by Jamin's degrees, his academical training is first "History and Geography" which is the typical and classical path for students interested in making a career in archaeology outside of France (History of mankind/anthropolgy). Students who want to make a career as an archaeologist in France usually study "Art History". Then Jamin started his studies of Pre-Colombian Archaeology with a DEA (Master/Research) in 1996 at the "Maison de la Recherche" (IPEALT) of the University of Toulouse "le Mirail"...

When you say that Jamin never found anything, it is absolutely wrong, and also it is the judgment of someone who does not understand anything about archaeological research. Accurately, Jamin has not found the lost city of the Incas yet (if it has ever existed) but his research is absolutely not a failure as their results allow him to get closer and closer from his goal.

About Pusharo: Jamin has never pretended he discovered the petroglyphs and has always said that they have been discovered by Fray Vicente de Cenitagoya in August 1921. His research at the site of Pusharo allowed him to discover new petroglyphs, that have never been found before, but also several giant and anthropomorphic figures which are located in front of the main rock. What you call a fringe is in fact a serious assumption. Research moves forward with the formulation of assumptions. That is what it is. You have the right to disagree with his assumptions, but it doesn't mean they are not valid. Rainer Hosting is certainly not a "serious anthropologist". Jamin has clearly demonstrated that the glyphs of Pusharo do not come from a "lost civilization from Amazonia", as pretended by Hostnig (this is really not serious). At Pusharo, Jamin has discovered the face of an Inca emperor, a chakana (symbol of the Tawantinsuyu) and several geometrical signs (tocapus) which are typical of the Inca culture. I understand that you have not read Jamin's books, that's fine, but you cannot just make this kind of unsourced claim. The geoglyphs from Pusharo (Jamin discovered three of them, but there might have been more than that) were located right in front of the petroglyphs. Before contesting their existence (especially with such allegations, Photoshop!? Seriously!?), you can always go onsite, you'll see by yourself.

Jamin never pretended that he is the "discoverer" of the "pyramides" of Paratoari! They have been discovered by Rodolfo Bragagnini in December of 1975. Another big mistake, Gregory Deyermenjian is certainly not the discoverer of the "pyramids" of Paratoari, it was a Japanese student, in 1978. Jamin has realized a lot of studies at the site of Paratoari and has demonstrated the presence of the Incas. A lot of archeological material (for both a domestic and military usage) has been found. Some of these artefacts are now exposed at the Museum Garcilaso de la vega, in Cusco. Regarding Gregory Deyermenjian, let's precise one thing (or two). He is not an archaeologist and "explores" these areas without any authorization from the Peruvian authorities. He has been clearly forbidden to access these areas by both the Peruvian Ministry of Environnement (SERNANP) and the Ministry of Culture. The local authorities do not want to see him there. Perhaps you know why. What kind of value are we supposed to give to his "expeditions" and "publications"? About the assumption stating that the pyramids might have been a ceremonial center of the Incas, indeed it is a very logical assumption because several elements match with the Inca civilization.

About the Hualla Fortress and other sites located in the Lacco valley: Hualla Mocco was partially visited by Carlos Neuenschwander for the first time in 1958. It was the ONLY archaeological site known in the Lacco Valley until Jamin's expeditions reach this area and investigate it. Once again, your claims are totally false. Following the research done by Jamin and his team between 2009 and 2011, the Peruvian government has registered part of the sites of Lacco, Chunchusmayo and Cusirini (Sanctuaire of Megantoni) on the official list of "Natural and Cultural Patrimony of the Nation". Discoveries made by Jamin in 2011 are still being processed by the Ministry of Culture and as it has been done previously a law will be prepared in order to add them to the official list of "Cultural Patrimony".

About Machu Picchu: Wrong again. The exceptional results obtained from the research realized by Jamin and his team at Machu Picchu in avril 2012 have been compiled in an official report. This report has been approved by the Ministry of Culture on Septembre 5th 2012 through what the Peruvian authorities call a "Resolución Directoral". This document has been sourced and added to this page. The excavation projet of the burial chamber's entrance is actually re-examined. In addition, the Ministry of Culture has not declared anything yet, contrary to what you wrote.

Now do YOU have any source for your claims? This article is very well documented and your allegations are not aligned with Wikipedia's policies. Please try to be a bit more objective and consensual.Byron87 05:15, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Review needed

Not reliable sources

Almost all sources quoted in this article were published by Thierry Jamin himself in his sites granpaititi, pusharo, inkari.

El Comandante (talk) 07:53, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Not reliable sources (fixed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Byron87 (talk • contribs) 05:05, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

List of DIRECT sources currently used in this article:

1. Peru21.pe (national newspaper)
2. Les grands secrets de l'archéologie (French magazine)
3. Imagines (Peruvian / Brazilian magazine)
4. TF1 / WAT (national French TV)
5. Cronica (Mexican newspaper)
6. El Correo (Peruvian Magazine)
7. El Comercio (Peruvian newspaper)
8. Le Figaro (French newspaper)
9. Peruvian Ministry of Culture
10. Heritage Daily (US Web portal)
11. Euronews (European News portal)
12. International Business Times (Digital global news publication)
13. La Depeche (French newspaper)
14. Actu Latino (French portal)
15. RPP Noticias (Peruvian newspaper)

Also, please note that while forbidden on Wikipedia, sources published on websites related to Jamin were reproductions of articles coming from the above list of publications.

Byron87 (talk) 04:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Misquoted

Some sources don't talk about what they are supposed to back up.

See, in Main Discoveries & Contributions : “Within 2½ years, with the help of local indigenous populations, thePeruvian Ministry of Culture has recognized and recorded more than 30 new sites discovered by Jamin”.

Also : “In 2007, Jamin was himself accused of death threats, insults, calumnies and defamations by a local treasure hunter and an international warrant of arrest was issued by Interpol. The accusations were proven false and Jamin was released with no charge against him”.

El Comandante (talk) 07:53, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Misquoted (fixed)

Main Discoveries & Contributions

1. Correct. This document is a "Resolucion Viceminestrial", signed by the Peruvian Ministry of Culture. In this document, the Peruvian government validates the final report delivered by Jamin's team regarding the archaeological investigations realized in the following sites: Las Cuencas de Lacco, Chunchusmayo y Mameria en las Cuencas. As per my understanding, this final report includes all the discoveries recorded by the Ministry of Culture. I imagine that this report includes geographic coordinates and cannot be disclose until the area is protected from looters by the Peruvian government. For now, the "Resolucion Viceminestrial" is only available on Jamin's site which cannot constitute a reliable source as per Wikipedia's policies. As per the Peruvian transparency law, this information might be available diectly from the Ministry of Culture, but I am not sure what the process looks like, and if the document would be then hosted by the Ministry of Culture.

Death Threats

1. Correct. The source quote Jamin himself. This part has to be removed. Byron87 (talk) 05:37, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Reliable informations

Please see this article from the Ministerio de la Cultura de Perú, so that you can understand the difference between what this article (and Jamin publications in general) claims, and what archaeological authorities say.

El Comandante (talk) 07:53, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Review needed

Not reliable sources

The actidute of user Byron87 is quite disturbing. He wrote that I am a fake user, but I could write the same for him. He sent me a sarcastic message, and accused me of vandalism! I tried to modify the article posted by Byron87, that was unbalanced and incorrect, but after a few seconds the old article appeared again. Maybe is there a robot that does not allow any changes? Is this s the famous neutrality of wikipedia? the article posted by Byron87 is completely wrong and tries to show Mr. Jamin as a great discoverer.In the article there is written 23 times "he discovered", totally far from the reality. Again: where is the degree in archaeology? User FreeRangeFrogcroak asked: Do you have sources to back up your claims? Yes. in this article are explained the fringe theories of Mr. Jamin about "his dicovery" of the Pusharo petrogliphs, and about his false discovery of the Paititi. [[1]] In this articles is explained the decision of the peruvian minister of culture: [[2]] In the following books are described some explorations of Mr. Neuenshwander (he died in 2002) who was the official discoverer of about 30 sites in the Lacco Valley, the same sites that user Byron87 affirm to have benn discovered by Jamin. Carlos Neuenschwander Landa (autor de los libros "PANTIACOLLO", "PAITITI: En la Bruma de la Historia" {1983}, y "PAITITI: Hipótesis Final" {2000}) Arkeology (talk) 22:47, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

The article is still incorrect

-Mr. Jamin is not archaeologist (he is not able to show a degree or master in archaeology) -He is not a specialist in inca archaeology (only a recognized archaeologist can be called "specialist") -Known for : history of the Incas and Amazon rainforset: incorrect because he did not publish book on the History of the Incas or books related to the Amazon rainforest. -"Jamin discovered several Inca artefacts in the same area of the Pyrimids": there is no proof that the artifacts that he "discovered" have an Inca origin. No stratigrafic work has been done in the area of the Pyramids of Pantiacolla/Paratoari. Regarding Pusharo gliphs: "His assumptions are that the ancient rock site could be an ancient roadmap leading to Paititi"[1]. (fringe teory) the link [[3]] seems to point out a hipotetical news but his assumption were not supported by independent and recognized archaeologist. -"In July 2006, Jamin returned to the area of the Pyramids of Pantiacolla. New archaeological evidence was found, confirming the existence of a permanent site neary"- No independent archaeologist supported this fringe theory of Mr. Jamin. The fact that he returned to Pusharo and "discovered" petrogliphs that can only be seen at night with a torch has not been confirmed by independent archaeologist. The link [[4]] is not peer reviewed archaeological publication. The fact that he "discovered" 3 geoglyphs "made by the Invas" has not been supported by independent archaeologist. Mr Jamin has been accused to have used the program photoshop to arrange or create some pictures. the link [[5]] is not supported by mainstream archaeologist. "When he returned to Mameria he realized the first scientific study of the site". Ok, but where is the study? Again the link [[6]] is just a video, there is not scientific study. Please provide the study that was published in a peer reviewd archaeological pubblication. The fact that he "discovered" sites in the Valley of Lacco is completely false. Because Peruvian Neuenschwander was exploring that Valley starting from 1960. The link [[7]] is not a peer reviewe archaeological pubblication but is a mexican newspaper with no specialization in Incan archaeology. Again all the sites listed: (fortress of Hualla Mocco (area Hualla), and the small cities of Torre Mocco and of Lucma Cancha (area Quinuay). He also discovered the small cities of Patan Marca and Llactapata (area Juy Huay), the ceremonial site of Puccro (area Mesapata). In the area of Ccorimayo, he discovered another city, also called Llactapata, and composed of about 150 buildings, a dozen streets, and two main squares) were discovered, studied by Peruvian Neunschwander and the result of his exploration are described in his books: "PANTIACOLLO", "PAITITI: En la Bruma de la Historia" {1983}, y "PAITITI: Hipótesis Final" (2000). Again the link [[8]] is a publication not specialized in archaeology or history. Again the link [[9]] is not related to Monte Puncu but to the Hualla Fortress that was discovered by Neuenschwander in 1958. Even the link N9 is not correct. and all the sites listed were studied by peruvian explorer Neuenschwander. The fact that in July 2011, "Jamin set up a new expedition to reach massive ruins signaled by indigenous people", is fantasy, marketing, but nothing related to a serious research. the link [[10]] is not a peer reviewed pubblication. The fact that "the team confirmed the existence of cavities and an important quantity of archaeological material" is not confirmed. the link: [[11]] is not a peer reviewed publication. "one of their assumptions is that the site could be a burial tomb" not confirmed. The article still require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies.Arkeology (talk) 16:07, 26 March 2013 (UTC)Arkeology (talk) 16:12, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subjectArkeology (talk) 21:33, 30 March 2013 (UTC)