Talk:Great power

Date Ranges for England and France Great Powers

Though marking the rise and fall of a great power is tricky, I would dispute the current date ranges for England (1169 to present) and France (1431 to present).

Though England was more of a bonus for Henry II, who derived most of his power from his considerable realms in France, Henry was a king by virtue of ruling England. Therefore, for simplicity's sake, I think it's fine to list his ascendancy to the English throne as the first beginning date for England's status as a great power. However, the battle of Bouvines would mark its first fall from great power status since it lost virtually all its French holdings and had little impact in international affairs until the Hundred Years War. If you wanted to be more accurate, though, this period would not belong to England but the Angevin Empire instead.

Bouvines, I would argue, also marks France's first rise to great power status. Philip Augustus, at that moment, had realized the ages long goal of virtually uniting France, plus he defeated the combined armies of the Holy Roman Emperor, King John of England, and the Count of Flanders. His article even notes that that victory made him the most powerful ruler in Europe.

Though it might be difficult to pinpoint at which point France may have fallen from great power status during the Hundred Years War, one can certainly say that England returned to great power status at its beginning. England's campaigns, in sum, subdued France (which was considered Europe's great power at the war's beginning) and campaigned at various times in Iberia. Also as certain, they fell from great power status at some point during the late days of the Hundred Years War when they lost all their French land but Calais while France had certainly reattained great power status.

England's next rise to great power status is tricky, I think. It definitely wasn't there during the Wars of the Roses and probably not there during the reign of Henry VIII since, though he would argue otherwise, wielded little power in continental politics. The reign of Elizabeth I, though, is often pointed to as a possibility. Though England proved its mettle against Spain's navy and had its golden period, I would argue she still wasn't a main player in Europe, nor were the Suart Kings. Cromwell and his military might may be another candidate, but again, he had little effect in Europe.

I would peg England's next rise to great power as either the Glorious Revolution or the War of the Spanish Succession. William III succeeded in dragging England into the fight against Louis XIV, and England's economy began to surpass that of the Netherlands during his rule. If not the Glorious Revolution, then certainly England reached it during the War of the Spanish Succession between their colonial operations and the Duke of Marlborough's brilliant campaign in Europe. From there, England's status would continue to the present.

If France fell from great power status after the Hundred Year's war, it probably would have been while it was somewhat in the shadow of the Hapsburg Empire and in the throes of the Religious Wars. It would have reassumed its position probably with Henry IV but undeniably by the time of Richelieu. --RemiCogan

Genoa

Would it be worth adding Genoa from when it defeated Pisa until it was defeated by the Venetian Republic? 12.220.94.199 22:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd say, as with Italy below, if you can find some work that supports Genoa as a great power, then add it. Personally, I've read many accounts where Genoa constantly had the upper hand against Venice until Chioggia, but I got the impression that neither was a great power while they throttled each other over the same pie (the levant trade). Once Venice more or less permanently vanquished her ancient foe, Venice became Europe's undisputed financial and naval power (if only for a century or so), plus she employed a mercenary army of about 30 thousand men, quite large for its time, during her era of mainland expansion. Genoa, to my knowledge, never reached such pinnacles.RemiCogan 19:46, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Italy

Ok, so should Italy be among the listed great powers in the present. They currently have the 8th highest GDP despite being in decline.(close to GB and France) They are among the G8. They are the third most involved country in peace keeping(behind U.S. and GB), I believe they also have the third largest army in Western Europe right behind Germany and France(both Great Powers) and ahead of Great Britain(also a Great Power). They are a nuclear country, easily capable of producing nuclear weaponry if necessary within 2-3 years. They also still have considerable cultural influence. 12.220.94.199 02:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that if you can find scholarly sources ranking Italy as a great power, then certainly do. However, though I definitely haven't had a peek at most books on this subject, I've never seen Italy referred to as a contemporary great power beyond its membership in the EU and the G7/G8.RemiCogan 19:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The Great Power page has some minor mistakes like date of rise of Spain is Spain unification,right, but it was in 1492 not 1469, other thing I think is wrong is the downfall of Portugal, you can consider 1580/81,but you can consider the period from 1640 (reconquest of independence to Napoleonic Wars and Brazil independence as another period in which the country was a great power, and any historian will confirm it, in this period the country was so or more important than before. Another example is Japan, you cannot consider it a power from 1905-Present. You can consider it a Great Power between 1905 and 1945 and then from a date like late 70's or early 80's to present a Major Power, because if you consider it was always a Great/Mjor Power so you should do the same to Germany too. In the period 1945-50 Japan was occupied by USA forces, you should know it and was not even a sovereign country, from the 50's thru the 70's it went thru a major economic growth, but I think the 70's/80's is the best place to put Japan as a Major/Great Power again, but even today its more a economic power than a great power in all the senses that definition carries.

The major issue I want to report is Italy, first of all the downfall of Italy as a great power was 1943 and not 1945. In 1943 Italy surrendered and in the two subsequent years it passed thru German invasion, Civil War and Allied Occupation. So 1945 is wrong. The bigger mistake is not considering Italy as a Great or even Major Power from the 80's till present. Italy is a member of the G-7, meaning is a major economic power,in certain years was the 5th major on earth, the Made in Italy is the second most competitive after Made in Germany, the international trade is big, since the war it has grown at a very high rate, almost like Japan. It has a population, GNP and economic position like that of France and UK,altough in recent years it has fall behind a little. If you consider GDP PPP Italy as the same amount of total GDP as France. Italy has many more big or medium companies than Russia, India or China. It has companies active in gas and oil field, the biggest of whose is ENI,which is one of the major players in that fiels. Take Germany for an instance, it has none, only subsidiaries of foreign companies, it has Rurhgas and some Utilities but a Petroleum company it doesn't have, and Italy has. Italy also has a residual amount of Gas and Petroleum but nevertheless it has more petroleum than Germany, Japan or France, altough it has almost none too. The diplomatic and International Relations of Italy in the recent years changed too.Now Italy is not anymore the silent partner of the Franco-German axis on EU, it is an important partner of UK and has halted some federalistic ambitions of the Franco-German axis. Even on the World stage its word is more important than someone could judge at first glance and than many countries. What was the diplomatic achivement of the G4 so far, none. Italy with her allies has managed to block the entrance of this countries to UN Security Council. It proposed semi-permanet seats or permanent seats on a reagional basis with rotation,like another from EU which could be to Germany, Italy or even Spain or even more EU members on a rotational basis, others seats to other parts of the world. If the G4 proposition would go thru many important countries no only economically,but also geostrategically speaking would remain outside the real decisions. And don't forget who is the 4th net contributor to UN budget-Italy. Also in foreign relations, the position of Italy is geostrategically much more important these days than that of Germany. Cold War is over,in that time Germany was at the center, now the problem is in Meadle East and Arab countries in general, ao Italy is much more well connected, its like an aircraft base in the middle of the Mediterranean .Japan could be important in future, but today altough its is the 4th spender in defence and as large armed forces, they only serve to self-defence and peace missions. And what was the first real war Germany was allowed to intervene in the post WWII- Kosovo in 1999.It had a smal contigent in 1991 in the Gulf War, but nothing like Italy.Japan cannot enter agressive wars, Germany could only after 1990,when Italy could after 1970. Italy entered a real and difficult war cenario in 1982 in Lebanon and altough at the beggining the allies mistrusted Italy,in the end its participation was fulcral even to safeguard the life of french and USA citizens. In 1991 it sent a substantial contingent to Operation Desert Storm mainly consiting of F-104 and Tornado Bombers, which made their very countribut too. In 1999 in Kosovo was the same, even more with the AM-X Ghibli. In Iraq, (agree with the war or not) Italy has the third largest contingent, many italians have died and even a secret service official was killed in a position of honour, defending the life of a civilian. Italians are not cowards as the anglo-saxons tend to generalize. In military technologies Italy has it indigenous industries, the major of which is Finmeccanicca, a huge conglomerate. It builds its own tanks like the Ariete, Tanks destroyers, like Centauro, Dardo AFV's and many more. It builds missiles and is part of MBDA consortium, the second largets of the world after Raytheon corporation in missile technologies. Italy has a small aircraft carrier and its building another one bigger, with the most powerfull conventional(non nuclear) angine of the world. As I know Germany and Japan doesn't own aircraft carriers, nor big destroyers like the 2 ones Italy is building with France, and the 10 frigates of ultimate generation its building with France too. In terms of Nuclear capabilities, German and Japan sometimes talk of owning its own deterrent force, but the only missiles Germany is supposed to have owned was in WWII. Itally planned a nuclear destroyer in the 60's,nuclear submarines which would have been equiped with Polaris missiles, but it was forced by the USA, Nato and other preesures of its own to abanon them. But it lauche one of the first satellites of the world, has an important space agency-ASI, its the thir more important member of ESA, the VEGA project its almost all from Italy, and in the 70's it tested sucessfully ballistic missiles- ALFA, made by italian industry, but the signed the Non Proliferation Protocol,but in the early 80's the idea emerged again and it Italy was to have its own Force de Frappe, if you don't believe ask Mr. Lelio Lagorio, defence minister at the time. It builds since the 60's good conventional submarines,the last in cooperation with Germany. Italy has the third most important Navy of EU and the 6th of the world, Germany only equalls that of Holland. It builds fighter aircrafts too. It entered the Tornado and EFA Typhoon programm, with a minor quote but is part of the consortium. Since the 50's it produces advanced jet trainers from Aermacchi sold all over the world with much sucess, helicopters, it has build the firs attack heli in EU, the A129 Mangusta, now its one of the major player in that industry, owning AgustaWestland. It also haves Alenia, Telespazio, Avio, Selex, Fincantieri, Otobreda, Iveco Defence Unit.The Fiat G91 was another sucess, winning a NATO contest for a light attack and strike aircraft, Germany bought and manufactured under license many of them. The AM-X was mainly Italian, altough Brazil had a 30% quota on it. So you put Brazil as a potential Major Power and Italy, wich deserves a place for a long, you don't even consider it for the future. Even if Brazil growns economically, in military, international relevance, its nothing compared to Italy. Doesn't have nothing indigeneous in terms of military-industrial, while Italy has lots of things. Brazil, India and China have aircraft carriers for instance, but they are old crapp bought from real Major Powers. Even in the F-35 JSF Italy is a 2nd level partner, being the USA the main contractor and the only first level partner the UK. Its is a partner also in the Dassault Neuron UCAV.ACamposPinho 02:43, 5 May 2006

Please, while you present decent arguments this is OR. Please present a number of reputable sources that say specifically that Italy is a great power. Nobleeagle (Talk) 01:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the major power page has been redirected, I want to include my references which I put on that page for this one. I really don't want to recopy everything all over again. By the way, I think Germany should be included in pre-WW2 section as a great power even though it wasn't sactioned as such by the League of Nations. See what they did in five short years. Kind of sounds like Italy today. I guess we have to wait for the next big one and see how things turn out.

I've been reading all these articles on what constitutes a great/major power and my personal opinion is that if you decide on which areas (i.e. economic, military size, spending, influence on countries, scientific papers, technology, etc.) a country needs to have then list the top countries in each field/endevour, add each field to the other fields to give an overall score, and voila! You have the list. No favourites. No interpretation. Plain black and white in writing. I propose this since I believe that Italy will definitely be listed in that top ten. But even if it wasn't, I would still believe that this is an objective approach leaving media impressions behind. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" or my favourite "E pure si muove." for those of you who like obscure quotes.

Afterwards if you want to give explanations of each power status or effect of that on the world, go ahead. Perceptions should be discussed. Remember when Japan was going to take over the world in the 80's. Then the bubble burst on the housing market. Those perceptions can change very fast. But no one doubts Japan became a second rate country. They were quiet for a few years. Now China is rising so America needs Japan to offset China, hence Japan is given a free hand to exert more regional influence. Therefore a more vocal Japan again today. Similar thing with GB and America.

Another thing I wanted to mention. Somewhere on these pages I saw Greece being stated as being the dominant power in the Med? I almost ROTFLMAS. Are you guys kidding me? What about Turkey? What about Egypt? Israel? And last time I checked Italy was surrounded by what sea? Can someone help me here? Hmm. Unless the Greeks have built a massive secret nuclear arsenal, why are they considered the major Med power. Must be that Ouzo. Opah!

--Hadrian1 03:41, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I saw that about Greece. The entire Southern Europe section was deleted once but some user put it back on. I don't see why Europe, a small continent, should have three (Southern, Eastern, Western) regions each with their own powers. But as I am not European, I would not know for sure. I believe Italy would be the Great Power for a Mediterranean region. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't get too het up about adding/removing certain countries at the moment as this and all the pages in the 'power' series are due a big re-write. I'd try and do that before adding certain countires if I were you. --Robdurbar 07:50, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

My two cents on the issue of Italy:

Here is a list from an independent source and an american one at that.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/index.asp

This site lists countries global firepower taking into account all resources needed to fight a war, economic, military, infrastucture, etc (oops, so sorry for you non latin speakers). Any way, as you can see they list Italy as number eleven in the world, two away from the UK.

I have another page as well from a different source: http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/e.asp

Again Italy in sixth place in Europe.

Naval strength on another page: http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/e.asp

Again sixth place.

Here is another page from the CIA, whose job it is to know these things:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2067rank.html

Look at that seventh place in the world. Hmmm.

How about economic power, again from the CIA:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

Wow, number 10 in the world in terms of GDP by PPP, and not even a mention in your article.

Here is a list of the country's total output and infrastructure with links to rank in each category:

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country_detail.asp?country_id=19

Hey how about cultural influence with say something like tourism as a barometer:

http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/1408_international_tourism_receipts_leading_countries.html

Again, number 4 in the world. Is there a trend here?

How about science and engineering:

http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/1382_patents_by_country.html

Number 8 in the world. Not bad.

How about GNP versus GDP. ANd those of you who don't know the difference, GDP is the goods and services produced within a country regardless of the nationality of the company or individual. Whereas GNP is the good and services produced by a country's citizens and national companies regardless of the actual manufacturing takes place.

Now looking at the next web page:

http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/1364_gross_national_product_by_country_1998.html

Again sixth in the world. Wow am I missing something!!???

How about another indicator of fighting power. Homogeneity of the population:

http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/1354_foreign_or_foreign_born_population_and.html

Again Italy has far fewer immigrants than the other countries. Try to get a Turk to fight against Turkey in a war even though he's a German citizen. What about France's five million Islamic North Africans. Hey did you guys go up north during the summer during the riots.

How about merchant fleets, you know the ability to ship stuff around the world.

http://www.immigration-usa.com/world_fleet.html

Not great but where's that power house France. Hmmm.

How about central government expeditures, how much money a government spends every year:

1 United States 1,780,000 2 Japan 706,000M 3 Germany 694,000 4 France 662,000 5 United Kingdom 531,000 6 Italy 504,000 7 China - Mainland 400,000 8 Brazil NA 9 Russia 156,000 10 Canada 142,000 11 Spain 124,000 12 Netherlands 118,000 13 Belgium 115,000 14 Austria 113,000 15 Poland 110,000

Number 6 again but sadly not considered a major power even though it's ahead of China, Russia and Brazil.

How about number of scientific papers produced and published:

http://www.in-cites.com/countries/2004allfields.html

Internet users: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?t=100&v=118

Number eight worldwide. So much for soft power.

How about world influence in terms of what people buy from where:

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?t=10&v=85

Again number 7 in the world for exports.

How Olympic medals as measure of a country's pride and ability to waste money on international competition in order gain world prestige and bragging rights:

http://www.aneki.com/olympic.html

Number six. Those Italians have a lot of medals considering they are unable to feed themselves :P

I can go on and on and on. If you can't see that Italy is a major power in the world in almost every respect then you are deluding yourselves. "You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

And for my brothers: "Andiamoci!"

--65.95.147.214 03:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC) Hadrian1

Hey here is another one since you consider influence on other countries.

From your own source the Central European Initiative is centered in where? Trieste Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Initiative

Which was a precursor to earlier groups which Italy was a founding member from the beginning.

I guess leading economic, scientific and cultural exchange groups doesn't mean much. --Hadrian1 03:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Repost again since nothing changed since last time. Since major power has been deleted for some strange reason, I put it here again. So since this is not a major power page anymore, then I dispute that Italy's greatness ended in 1945. I would say that there was a period when the country was rebuilding and that rebuilding is over a long time ago. My opinion is around 1980 or 1985. Since then the country has been involved in more and more international "peace-keeping efforts", which means clout and power projection.

By the way , who decides what's on here or not?

--Hadrian1 21:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Democracy decides: I'm opening a vote: Nobleeagle (Talk) 00:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments

Please insert general comments relating to the topic here

No it doesn't. Wikipedia is not a democracy --Robdurbar 09:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Well it's possible that we overlooked Italy in the original inclusion of Modern Great Powers. Perhaps this is a mistake by us, the sources above seem convincing to at least have a proper discussion about it. Remember, the aim of Wikipedia is to represent the truth. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I would very much support its inclusion, however unless we have proper refernces then we have OR, and are back where we started at. Somebody needs to do signficant work at a library. 12.220.94.199 02:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Vote

Please insert Support if you support the inclusion of Italy or Oppose if you oppose it

Support

I vote yes obviously since I seem to be protagonist with respect to this. I think I have shown that Italy is in the top ten of world powers in many respects with my many references to various sites which took some I might add. I understand this topic of OR but even if I can't list several experts in geopolitics to say conclusively that Italy is still a great power, I believe the numbers speak for themselves. For instance, up until Germany was re-united, there was little talk of Germany as a current great power. However, now that it is and it seems their attempt at getting a permanent seat on the UN security council is being succesful (i.e. their consultation in the Iran issue), everyone is considering them as such, not to denigrate them. But I also haven't seen them listed conclusively as a great power conclusively either. There are also contentions about Russia as a great power. I've seen France being referred to as a has-been. Ditto GB. In fact depending on who you listened to, you get a different answer. Some people think USA is a has-been or on a serious decline. What seems to matter is the ability to wage war. That means economics plus technology plus military hardware. Of course in the end, it's economics. Which is why the G8 is so important. America won the cold war through economics. Reagan said " We will out produce them in an arms race that they can't win." In the end, he was right. So my assertion here is that the top ten world economic powers are the world powers/great powers. Therefore since Italy is that list, sixth or seventh depending on whether it is GDP (PPP)or GDP (nominal), higher if it is GNP then it is a current great power. Also I would like to note that if the underground economy is taken into consideration which every country has, Italy has an approximate percentage of 25% - 30%. France has been estimated at around 10 - 15%. GB is even lower. Adjusted values would give Italy a bigger economy than France and maybe GB (UK has been doing relatively well lately, ten years ago Italy was definitely ahead). I don't have sources but I will find them and list them here.

There you have it.

--Hadrian1 01:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Some reorganization's called for

The more I've read the list of great powers and the article, the more I think the list needs to be divided into time periods and regions. For instance, the list is supposedly for "modern" great powers, but some listed appear before the Age of Exploration.

I think a good date to split the list between regional periods and global periods would be 1500, a nice round number date when Europeans first started reaching out worldwide and the global community started to form. Pre-1500, perhaps the list should also be split between the actual regions, as well. For instance, China was a great power during the Yuan years, but its direct influence at most extended into central Asia and Indochina, not so much Europe, India, the Middle East, or Africa (its parent state, the Mongol Empire, on the other hand . . . digression: the Mongol Empire should be accounted for regardless since it ruled everything from Korea to Eastern Europe at one point). Another instance would be the Inca Empire, which reigned supreme in western South America but had little reach beyond. Sound good? RemiCogan 20:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Yep, sounds good. :) But keep the dicussion open for a while. We should split into regions until the world has reached a proper form of globalization. Nobleeagle (Talk) 01:37, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Uh-huh, I've been letting this one stew. It'd be a fairly big revision, so more input's encouraged. I've actually started rehashing the list on my user page if you want to peek at it. Probably won't be done for some time, and yes, it looks like a big mess at the moment (not just the list, buy my user page as well ;) , but feedback is welcome. --RemiCogan 23:02, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Current Powers

I've moved this section to the Power in international relations page, it seems more appropriate there than on this page, a page dealing with Great powers only.

Xdamr 17:29, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Spain

I noticed a lot of debate about Spain and its loss of great power status. I personally would argue it did lose the status in terms of ability in the early 1800's but by the late 1800's with new colonial aquisitions Spain was once again a great power under the restoration period. However it lost that status with the Spanish-American War and the selling of its other Pacific colonies to Germany. For now I'm going to revert, so the wikipedia articles will remain consistant, but besides this one poor source that took a long time to dig for [1] I can't find any other via a google search on the topic for any of the three "supposed" periods where Spain lost its status. 12.220.94.199 01:52, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly worth more research. Off the top of my head, I recall that the end of the Thirty Years' War may be regarded as an official waning of Hapsburg Spain into second-rate power, though the decay had set in some time before then. I also recall that the ascendancy of the Bourbons to the Spanish throne reversed some of the Spanish reversals, so to speak, for some time by bringing in some modernizing ideas, but I also don't recall them being considered a great power after the War of the Spanish Succession, either. --RemiCogan 22:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The Rise of America

The Spanish American War was our first major conflict as a great power but that does not mean that we became a great power at that point. At the end of the reconstrusction in the 1870's-80's, our military was a formidable force and our economy was booming with the Industrial Revolution. Our Ability to go to war with the Spanish Empire at all, as well as our easy victory over that power, clearly demonstrates that our strength prior to the Spanish American War placed us in our separate and equal station among the great powers of the Earth.

It's tricky trying to assign a concrete date to most rises and falls of great power status, and I certainly understand your argument. I've also heard the United States recently described as a middling military, industrial, and economic power around 1880 (from a historian on the History Channel's documentary about the McKinley assassination), which was about the time the US started its ascent and eventual grand entrance onto the world stage against Spain.

Could the US have taken on Spain before then over Cuba? Probably. However, the political will wasn't there as the US was deeply into isolationism, and the world's unquestioned big players of the moment didn't regard the US as an international force, even with the Monroe Doctrine in place (the US grumbled at the French adventure in Mexico but did nothing about it, though one can note that Maximilian's reign was short and that the US may have reacted differently if Max had proved more durable).

I think the end of the Spanish-American War, which officially established the US as an international player for more than a moment, would be the appropriate date. --RemiCogan 22:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Major Power/Superpower

This article really now needs to be re-writtene to allow for the fact that it includes Major power as a redirect, and be bought up to date. My copy of 'International relations and world politics' by Viotti and Kaupi describes US and USSR as 'superpowers' during the Cold War period. The divisions made between times as great power are arbitrary and misleading. Its not neutral and its not sourced - its probably original research too.

This needs sources to show the term is used and to show that these countries are described as 'Great Powers'. I'll help though after the weekend sometime. But I think it shouldn't be too hard to find sources etc. --Robdurbar 07:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

This is somewhat an opportunity to rebuild the Major power stuff from scratch and make it a proper article. Let's not simply copy and paste the information from the Major power articles. Nobleeagle (Talk) 09:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Question about Antiquity

Does the definition of "major powers" include ages before the modern era? There are entries like the Mughals, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, etc. If we include pre-modern years and antiquity, then China is a "major power" (arguably) from the Shang to late Qing (1st Opium War), and we include the Byzantines, Romans, Assyrians, Persians, etc. Are we supposed to put those entries in, maybe under a seperate "pre-modern" table? MetraB 02:58, 24 May 2006 (UTC)