Talk:Unite Against Fascism

Removal of references to UAF being far-left.

I recently made an edit linked to a Guardian article which referred to the UAF as far-left. This was removed on the grounds that the article was an opinion piece and irrelevant.

Any article ever referring to a an organisation being far right or far left is clearly going to be an opinion since these terms do not have an objective definition. The piece was written in The Guardian; a well respected centre-left British newspaper so could hardly be described as overtly partisan.

In addition, the leadership of the UAF is made up of members of Socialist Workers Party who self define themselves as a radical left party.

Why is there such a massive aversion to using the term far left when the term far right is used in countless articles on Wikipedia to describe other organisations like the UAF's main antagonist the EDL. (the evidence for them being far right is also just links to opinion pieces in newspapers).

If the term far right is used then surely it is proper to use the term far left for activist socialist organisations which operate outside of mainstream politics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.144.19.127 (talk) 11:52, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

"Any article ever referring to a an organisation being far right or far left is clearly going to be an opinion since". That is not so. When media has formed a fair consensus on labeling a group far whatever these terms will appear in regular news reports. __meco (talk) 11:59, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Response to 109.144.19.127 (talk)

It wasn't a "Guardian article" - it was an opinion piece by David Toube under the "Comment is free" heading, a regular feature in the paper which allows people not connected to it to voice their opinions. As such, it is misleading of you to describe it as a Guardian article. You say that the terms far right and far left do not have objective definitions. This is not entirely true, but by the nature of politics, most terms have a certain vagueness. The same applies to centre-left, which you yourself use of the Guardian. The SWP does not self-define itself as a radical left party - it is a revolutionary socialist party. That the leadership of the UAF includes the SWP is not disputed by the SWP, the UAF, its other leaders or its supporters, or editors here. It is mentioned within the article, so adding it to the introduction is unnecessary. The leadership includes people from other parties/groups as well. This is also mentioned within the article. There is no need in this article to go into detail about any parties/groups other than the UAF - they have their own articles where this is done.

Your edit was not even based on a proper reading of Toube's comment piece. You wrote: "It is defined by some commentators as being a far-left movement as evidenced by its core leadership drawing its membership from far left parties like the Socialists Worker Party and other socialist direct action groups." Objections to this include but are not limited to: 1 A single person giving an opinion is not some commentators. 2 Toube nowhere mentions socialist direct action - he does refer to Socialist Action, a left group, which you clearly misread. 3 Neither does Toube specifically say that UAF is a far-left movement. If you infer that, then that is a case of original research and inadmissable. 4 Since Toube does not actually "define" the UAF as a "far-left movement", it is difficult to see how you can claim that evidence for his non-existent claim lies in the "core leadership" (your phrase, not Toube's). Emeraude (talk) 12:18, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I did not think we used groups definitions of themsleves were these were contradicted by RS. So are there any RS that call the UAF bfar left, if thre are that is what we use.Slatersteven (talk) 12:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

In fact a number of such have been given previously (including from The Times etc.). There is no reasonable doubt that relaible sources have used that term, applying it ti this organization.

Perhpas for the dake of discusion they shuld be re-listed here, and if they exist then clealry we shuld lable the UAF what RS label them.Slatersteven (talk) 13:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is what had been removed in the past for no really good reasons:

[[The Times]], [[Daily Mail]], [[Sunday Business Post]], [[International Business Times]] and other news organisations have described the group as "[[left-wing]]".<ref>[http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6790067.ece] TimesOnline 10 Aug 2009 "Left-wing groups including Unite Against Fascism "</ref><ref>http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=WORLD-qqqs=news-qqqid=42484-qqqx=1.asp</ref><ref>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1304139/Police-halt-English-Defence-League-march-riot-fears.html</ref><ref name="ibtimes.com">[http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/83847/20101119/english-defence-league-is-a-result-not-a-cause-of-islamism-says-leader.htm] IBTimes 19 Nov 2010 "the left-wing group Unite Against Fascism (of which Prime Minister David Cameron is a supporter)".</ref>

Hope this clears the air. Collect (talk) 13:18, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

OK I wqould ask why clealry soourced content is being removed?Slatersteven (talk) 13:21, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Read some of the "discussions" which boiled down to

Cameron is not far left therefore he can not possibly support a far left organization, therefore we can not point out that RS sources have used that term.

Note further that the claim only says that it has been referred to as "far left" and does not aver that it is a fact (another thing some folks like to jump on depending on whether they like or dislike something). Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:37, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

May I remind editors that this discussion strand is specifically on the edit by 109.144.19.127 (talk) and my reverting of same, for which I have given a rationale, i.e. that the source was inadequate and was being misused and misrepresented. Before dragging us interminably over old ground that has been flogged to death ad nauseam, please refer to the archives of previous discussions where this has been more than adequately covered. Emeraude (talk) 14:00, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Collect is exhibiting a selective memory. S/he raised those same sources in a previous discussion with went to the NPOV and RS notice boards as well as an Rfc before being resolved in favour of the status quo, i.e. no use of "far left". ----Snowded ^TALK 08:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. Quite why Collect added back the information to the lead despite Talk:Unite Against Fascism/Archive 2#RfC: Should Unite Against Fascism (UAF) be described in the lead as "left-wing"? is something only he can try and explain, if he can. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 10:11, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

The real problem is that "IDONTLIKEIT" is not a valid reason to remove properly and fully RS-sourced claims whuiich are stated in an absolutely NPOV manner. And per WP:CONSENSUS, assertion of a consensus must accept that not only can cnsensus change, the discussions here and on other pages have shown that the Wikipedia general practice has changed. The material does not use Wikipedia's voice to categorize any group here, and does not "describe the UAF as 'left-wing'", it only states an ascertainable and objective fact about what named sources have stated. It is thus improper to remove the properly sourced and stated claim. Cheers. Collect (talk) 03:37, 2 March 2012 (UTC) Cheers. Collect (talk) 03:37, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

And your evidence that consensus has changed over this issue can be found where? "ILIKEIT" isn't a reason to ignore past discussions... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Further you (Collect) are simply repeating the same point with the same material as last time, and edit warring when you know full well that to change a concensus requires discussion on the talk page. This is generally true, but especially so after an RfC process lasting months. You assert that wikipedia general practice has changed - can you provide evidence for this? ----Snowded ^TALK 06:04, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

The same material in the same place in the article. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 10:06, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

There are insuffiicient sources for the description and it is misleading to include it. TFD (talk) 07:03, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

How many sources would be sufficient to state that the sources named referred to it as left-wing? 10, 20? 50? I suggest that "source counting" is an inane exercise - the RfC from over a year ago was over calling the UAF "left wing" and was not about stating what named sources call it as a matter of their opinion. We should not say that it is "left wing" of course. Now again -- how many sources do we need for stating that The Times referred to it as "left wing"? I thought showing that it did so rationally only requires one source, but here you aver we need many sources for that simple fact - so how many sources do we need to show that The Times used the term? Cheers. Would [1] from ABC Online (from Australia) help? Collect (talk) 13:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

You made the same points a year ago, and with the same sources. ----Snowded ^TALK 13:57, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

And there are more sources available now. The RfC a year-ago was basically no consensus - and my suggestion over a year ago was that we can state what named sources say, but that we should not assert any position in any "political spectrum" as a simple fact. My position then and now is the same, and to say "but we discussed it more than a year ago without any consensus therefore we can not discuss it now" is simply inane as an argument. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:05, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

This is extremely tiresome. Nothing has changed since last year (except one of the sources has now disappeared from my view). The fact that four (or three) sources say something does not make it so. The article has to be concerned with what the UAF is, not what a few very carefully selected sources once said, but other equally or even more reliable sources don't. Has it not been considered that the Times and the Mail (famous for "Hurrah for the Blackshirts") may have got it wrong? It all hinges on the fact that some senior people in UAF are from the left; that does not make UAF itself left, any more than the Allies were communist because one of its leaders was Stalin! All you can say (and this itself is only an OR inference) is that UAF (or the Allies) are to the left of fascists, which really is saying not very much at all. Emeraude (talk) 14:10, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Collect, you were asked a series of direct questions above. I note you are avoiding answering them. Perhaps you would do so. Then please list what are "new sources" and what "new arguments" you have that justify you returning to the issue (and your interpretation of the RfC result is wrong by the way)----Snowded ^TALK 14:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

They are far-left, you know it, I know it, he knows it. But a small group of individuals will never allow it to be written here without an avalanche against them. It's fortunate that anybody who checks wikipedia on such groups will, on finding this article, look elsewhere for info. Gaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 09:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Hear, hear. It is plainly obvious that an agenda is being pushed here that rather mysteriously doesn't apply to articles on the other side of the political coin.--Panzer71 (talk) 10:04, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Ridiculous double standards and a stain on Wikipedia's neutrality.--lincs_geezer (talk) 19:57, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Bias in intro

The EDL page and infobox has descriptions of right and far right. Let's not kid ourselves, UAF is a left wing at best and extreme left organisation at worst. It is not a pure anti-hatred group like Hope Not Hate or One Law For All. Its core includes members of far left parties, and an Islamist, Azad Ali. It has never protested Islamic fascism or any racism comitted by any non-white. And for an anti-racism group, they do seem to bang on an awful lot about trade unions... Indiasummer95 (talk) 15:31, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

UAF has received support from all mainstream British political parties. As for the remainder of your comments, we base article on published sources, not contributor's opinions, AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

More accurately: "has had members from each of the major British parties" as I have not seen any source stating that the parties as such have supported the UAF. Collect (talk) 15:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

"UAF has received support from within all mainstream British political parties"? Anyway, the point is that UAF cannot be simply characterised as 'far left'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:54, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Close - but I do not favour characterising any group in Wikipedia's voice - but where a reliable source uses the term, it is reasonable to ascribe such an opinion as an opinion of that source, no? Collect (talk) 17:05, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

As always, weight matters. How significant is the opinion? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:15, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

The Times and other newspaper usage as noted in the past? [2] Collect (talk) 18:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

There is a reliable source that Barack Obama was born in Kenya - a Kenyan newspaper article when he was elected to the Senate. Editors have used your argument to say that we should mention it in articles about Obama. TFD (talk) 18:26, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

And we certainly could say that a Kenyan newspaper had the opinion that Obama is a Kenyan. So? The issue here, however, is you saying that a well-known exceedingly reliable source's opinions can not be mentioned here. Which is absurd. I suggest that The Times is a teensy weensy bit more notable than that Kenyan newspaper. Apparently your mileage varies by a huge factor. Collect (talk) 02:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Where Obama was born is a matter of fact not opinion. It is helpful to be able to distinguish between the two. TFD (talk) 20:50, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that UAF should not be characterized as "left-wing", because it draws membership from people of different ideological backgrounds. How other groups are characterized should be discussed on their talk pages. TFD (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed - that's a no-brainer. We should always be wary of assuming that a newspaper, however well-respected, has no political agenda. The Times is still a journal of record when it comes to reporting events; no paper is bias free when it comes to opinion and whatever it (or any other paper) says about the political position of any group is always suspect. Emeraude (talk) 10:01, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

It is a far leftist front group for the swp, they share all of the key figures. Everyone knows it. To pretend it just some neutral protest group is immensely absurd and makes this wiki entry utterly laughable. Question, since when did the TIMES become not a source? Answer, when certain biased editors decide it goes against their propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.152.217.38 (talk) 20:24, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

There is a difference between 3 times that the mainstream media has mistakenly called the UAF "left-wing" and the tens or hundreds of thousands of times the EDL, BNP, NF, BFF, BUF, etc. have been called "far right." TFD (talk) 04:29, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Answer: I didn't say that The Times was not a source. I said it "is still a journal of record", i.e. a highly reliable source. Please read what is written and take it in. Emeraude (talk) 08:37, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 June 2013

The edit is requested due to the importance of highlighting the increasingly militant street-violence employed by the organisation, which I believe is contemporarily relevant given its position as opposing fascism, doing as much, often more harm, than the organisations it gathers to oppose.

"The UAF organisation has in recent times descended into militancy, readily resorting to violence not only against those against whom they oppose ideologically, but against any police presence separating rival marches. On the 1st June 2013 58 members alone were arrested at a rally opposing the BNP in Westminster, increasingly questioning the legitimacy of the UAF as an organisation opposing fascism and all its worst traits. The differences between the BNP, EDL and UAF in terms of rally/march behaviour, tactics, animosity, intent, and fear and alarm caused to the general public is now blurred.

Source: 'Fifty-eight arrested during Westminster protests' 01/06/2013 BBC News Online

Abbamanic (talk) 23:23, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Link to BBC article: [3]. As for your proposed edit, we base article content on published sources, not contributors own analysis or opinions. The BBC article makes no comparison between UAF and the BNP, says nothing about violence at the counter-demonstration, and likewise nothing about "the legitimacy of the UAF as an organisation opposing fascism". AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:30, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• Disagree with requested edit Not supported by source. TFD (talk) 02:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

 Not done: per WP:SOAPBOX and WP:SYNTH. In the future, please stick to the source, and seek consensus for your edits before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. --ElHef (Meep?) 03:27, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Leon Trotsky-phobia

An edit to the lead adds "deploying the spirit of Trotsky’s united front method" "It describes itself as a national campaign with the aim of alerting British society to a perceived threat of fascism and the far right..." The source used is an opinion pieces in the International Socialism (ISJ), published by the Trotskyist Socialist Workers Party.[4]

Opinion pieces are not reliable sources. ISJ is not a reliable source. Even if it were, it is an opinion that lacks notability.[5] We would not say for example that the Alliance in the Second World War was a typical Trotskyist front? I notice that the view that UAF is left-wing appears fairly consistently in the literature of the BNP, EDL and other far right organiations but is not a normal description in mainstream writing.

TFD (talk) 13:40, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

The author of the article, Martin Smith, is on the steering committee of UAF. Are you telling us that a UAF steering committee member is an unreliable source for the methods deployed by the UAF? --Nug (talk) 20:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think this is, per se, and unreliable source, but it's a characterisation rather than a concrete fact, so not something we can state in WP's voice. Formerip (talk) 20:59, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Smith isn't writing in the journal as a representative of UAF. In any case, it is clearly opinion. Who knows what 'the spirit of Trotsky's united front' is? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:06, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

It was attributed to Martin Smith, who identifies himself within the article as UAF steering committee member, thus he is writing as a representative of UAF. --Nug (talk) 21:10, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

'Thus'? Sorry, but that is questionable. He identifies himself as "on the steering committee of UAF" in a paragraph which recounts his own personal 'campaign' against 'fascists' - it is a personal statement of commitment, nothing else. Anyway, it is opinion - Trotsky is long dead, and as much as the SWP might like to claim to be his spiritual heirs, Wikipedia isn't here to give credence to such claims. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:20, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

There is no explicit disclaimer, so the default position is that he is writing as a representative of UAF, and he is describing the methods employed by the UAF. You shouldn't allow your personal animosity to Trotsky to influence your editorial POV. --Nug (talk) 21:31, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Can you cite policy for this 'default position'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

It raises alarm bells when for subjects that have received widespread mainstream media attention, editors provide obscure, highly partisan sources. I sincerely doubt that Nug and Estlandia rely on the Trotskyist press for their understanding of current events. I could find no mention of Smith or the steering committee on the UAF website. I did find however that members of UAF Scotland elect a steering committee. But the fact one speaks for a group that elected one to a committee does not mean one speaks for an entire organization.

Oddly, Smith appears to confuse "united front", which is a working class coalition against the bourgeoisie, with "popular front", which is a coalition of left-wing and bourgeois forces against fascism. And the "united front" was a Communist, not specifically Trotskyist, invention.

My interpretation of weight is that Trotskyist interpretations are not normally included in articles. If we do then we should be using sources that are experts with that ideology.

TFD (talk) 21:54, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

The infobox mentions Martin Smith as assistant secretary, which he was at the time of writing his article. I find it incredulous that TFD can't find any mention of Mr Smith on the UAF site, a simple search on the that site reveals many hits such as "UAF officer Martin Smith will appeal against his conviction by magistrates for assault on a police officer."[6]. --Nug (talk) 22:15, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

See the list of officers on their website. Smith is not included, although he may have been an officer at one time. Note also that it says its officers are "elected". Also, note the list includes a Labour MP and MEP. but no elected MPs or MEPs of the Socialist Workers Party. TFD (talk) 22:41, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

The lack of transparency of who the officers of the UAF actually were, is remarkable. But nevertheless, it cannot be disputed that Smith was on the steering committee (and may well still be) when he wrote his "insider" view of UAF tactics. Now do you have any evidence that Smith's view is "Trotskyist interpretation"? You state "I notice that the view that UAF is left-wing appears fairly consistently in the literature of the BNP, EDL and other far right organisations", are you claiming Smith is far right because he writes that UAF was "deploying the spirit of Trotsky’s united front method"? And what exactly is the problem with Smith's article being published in International Socialism Journal, which you characterised as being published by a Trotskyist organisation? I know Stalinists have a problem with Trotsky, but what is your issue with him? --Nug (talk) 21:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Find a non-fringe source that describes UAF as a Trotskyist united front (or a Communist popular front, or whichever permutation you prefer) and we can consider including this in the article. Otherwise, forget it. We don't base assessments of protest movements on the unsubstantiated assertions of single activists. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:22, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, has RSN deemed the ISJ as a fringe source? Secondly Smith never described the UAF as Trotskyist (or Communist popular front), he just said the methods deployed by the UAF are in the spirit of Trotsky’s united front. Why the knee-jerk reaction? I thought only Stalinists go ape over any mention of Mr. T. --Nug (talk) 21:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not suggest that we provide Trotskyist, Stalinist or far right opinions in articles unless they are noteworthy, and even then we must present them as the opinions of those groups. Since the UAF does not have an ideology, different members of the steering committee may have different views, and it is incorrect to ascribe the views of one member to the group. Even if we did, it would be wrong rely on documents sourced to political groups to describe them. Do you think that Peter Hain, who is an officer, would describe them as a Trotskyist front group? TFD (talk) 21:34, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Martin Smith is a notable person and his view as a member of the UAF steering committee, which was properly attributed as his view, ought to be in the article regardless of your own personal political POV. We can also include Peter Hain's view too if you like. --Nug (talk) 21:39, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Opinions become noteworthy when they receive widespead attention. It may be that the media is wrong in not reporting this story, but not up to us to correct the errors in the media and to right great wrongs. You should write to the UK broadsheets and ask them to report what Smith said. TFD (talk) 22:25, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

There is no such policy that requires opinions be covered in mainstream media before they can be covered here, you are misinterpreting WP:Noteworthy which describes the criteria related to whether a topic can have its own article. --Nug (talk) 09:46, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

@TFD... It is blatantly obvious you simply do not want this entirely relevant and valid source included because you do not like it, which isn't a reason to not include it.Wikipedia:I just don't like it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.173.55 (talk) 11:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

See WP:WEIGHT: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.... Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views."

The ISJ is not a reliable source, and Trotskyism is the view of a tiny minority.

If you disagree with this policy, then get it changed.

TFD (talk) 12:29, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

58 Arrests in the UAF's latest 'demonstration'

This needs to be added to the arrests and controversy section. refs: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/58-arrested-as-antifascist-demonstrators-clash-with-bnp-in-westminster-8640650.html ... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10093427/Police-arrest-58-as-anti-fascist-protesters-clash-with-BNP.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.152.217.38 (talk) 22:17, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

You'll have a tough time getting any real warts and all coverage of the real antics of the UAF on here. It's ever more apparent editors are not taking a neutral viewpoint regarding the violence and harassment the UAF cause. If you try and enter it, the editors will find some feeble justification to have the content removed (probably consensus initially) and if you continue to counter it, it will then just ultimately boil down to "complain to the Press Council".

Had this been the EDL they would be falling over themselves to enter the noteworthy content.--82.3.162.93 (talk) 21:49, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

So what specific content is being proposed? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:12, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

It is about a BNP demonstration and no one has fallen over themselves in adding it to that article either. TFD (talk) 22:26, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

No and that, I suspect, is because not one of the arrests was of the BNP and that would not conform with way these articles seem to portray BNP and the UAF.--82.3.162.93 (talk) 22:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Just what is "the violence and harassment the UAF cause"? 58 people were arrested at the UAF demo. None has been charged with crimes of violence. None has been charged with crimes of harassment. They have been charged under s14 of the Public Order Act, i.e, with being where they were not allowed to be between certain hours under an order made by the police, maximum sentence a fine. And it's extremely doubtful that the arrests were legal given that no one seems to have heard the police announce that the area was proscribed. Emeraude (talk) 13:58, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

"Racist" Blood Donors

This should go in:

On 5th June 2013 the UAF were criticised for heckling blood donors when they mistook them for UKIP supporters in Hove Town Hall.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/10463657.Blood_donors_heckled_by_anti_fascist_protesters_at_Hove_Town_Hall/ http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3710/anti_ukip_protestors_disrupt_another_farage_event_this_time_in_sussex

212.139.97.203 (talk) 21:56, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The Commentator is not a reliable source. The Argus might be, but I can't see that this is anything other than trivial. If it was not mentioned in the national press then its not really notable ----Snowded ^TALK 22:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Yup. Of the two sources, The Argus does not say that the demonstrators were from UAF, and The Commentator seems to be some sort of right-wing pressure group (and note that it only says that the demonstrators were "believed to be" UAF). I very much doubt that The Commentator would be seen as a reliable source for anything beyond its own vague opinions - hardly worth a mention. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Andy. TFD (talk) 22:27, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Surprise surprise.87.112.173.55 (talk) 04:05, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Mentioning the vice chair Azad Ali

No where in this article is the vice chair, Azad Ali's, somewhat interesting opinions mentioned including implementing sharia law & ending of democracy in the UK, Killing British soldiers, etc etc. I feel in the interest of balance it's important to inform the readers that the organisation chooses to put people with these views at the top of the organisation. --Richardeast (talk) 14:26, 7 June 2013 (UTC)