Talk:Relationship between religion and science

Misleading text regarding the position of the National Academy for Sciences on this articles topic

With regards to the Relationship between religion and science section, someone has add the following quote with regards to the NAS statement regarding evolution and also the distinction between religion and science:

"The official position of the National Academy of Sciences is that religion and science are compatible since both are separate and address aspects of human understanding in different ways."

Now I don't really understand this, it seems like someone is trying to suggest that this is the "official position" of NAS. However, looking at a larger section that quote comes from:

"In science, explanations must be based on evidence drawn from examining the natural world. Scientifically based observations or experiments that conflict with an explanation eventually must lead to modification or even abandonment of that explanation. Religious faith, in contrast, does not depend only on empirical evidence, is not necessarily modified in the face of conflicting evidence, and typically involves supernatural forces or entities. Because they are not a part of nature, supernatural entities cannot be investigated by science. In this sense, science and religion are separate and address aspects of human understanding in different ways. Attempts to pit science and religion against each other create controversy where none needs to exist."

Reveals that this wasn't exactly the official position of NAS, as that quote is qualified first with the "in this sense". I really feel like this quote as it is now misrepresents/misinforms the reader on the "official position" of NAS. I wonder what else is in this entire article that misrepresents... 125.253.96.174 (talk) 14:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree, also further, even if the page said that science and religion were compatible, it wouldn't make it an official position. Everything that is on an organisations website does not represent their official position, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:57, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Probably can just reinsert with simpler wording - that this is a statement made by the NAS concerning the relationship between science and religion. Of course, the fact that they emphasize the NOMA viewpoint is relevant to mention since it discusses the relationship from the organization's standpoint which is related to the viewpoints from the the Independence section of this wiki article. The organization made the declaration in their own writings and on their own site on that specific issue so it should not be problematic to say that this is their position or statement as an organization at least [1]. Therefore, this is not misinforming at all. Since some have tried to put science as inherently conflicting with religion by using information from the NAS, then it sure seems reasonable to actually mention the statements the NAS' has actually made on the issue too, no? Obviously every statement made by the NAS is not binding on any scientist at all nor is it the final word on anything, but the validity of what it says is not something we would be able to determine here at wikipedia. I personally could go either way keeping it with reword or leaving it out. --Ramos1990 (talk) 04:44, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Kierkegaard

Perhaps my rendering of Kierkegaard's point was not the best, but he did reflect what it means to do theology in an age when sciences define our understanding of the world. He came up with the solution of subjective truth. For him, theology is subjective truth and science is objective truth. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Greetings Tgeorgescu, I think your post was quite interesting and informative, but it did not focus the relationship with science explicitly. Its sure did elaborate on his view on religion though. If you can find a source which combines both from Kierkegaard's point of view, please go ahead and put it in the article. --Ramos1990 (talk) 22:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Denial of evolution

In the section "Public perceptions of science", it states "Evolution is the only issue where a significant portion of the American public denies scientific consensus for religious reasons." This statement is too simplistic. Denial of evolution usually implicitly includes denial, or at least deep misunderstanding or ignorance, of many other issues (e.g. the Big Bang, abiogenesis, uniformitarianism). --Euniana/Talk 22:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Any suggestion? IRWolfie- (talk) 00:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Might need an additional source, but I think a followup sentence briefly mentioning the implications of evolution denial, maybe with a link to evidence for evolution as an example of what it entails. --Euniana/Talk 00:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Source states, "Only on one issue does a significant portion of the public deny a strong scientific consensus for religious reasons: evolution." Furthermore, in a Pew research source it is clear that evolution is the only one where consensus is denied for religious reasons alone [2]. Other topics there (Homosexuality, Global Warming) have weaker correlations and the agreements and disagreements are from multiple social sources. "Unlike evolution, no scientific consensus exists on the causes of homosexuality – or at least no consensus that has been broadly disseminated. Likewise, the link between religion and views on this issue is not as close as the link between religion and views of evolution." and "Furthermore, these links between religion and views of global warming — which are smaller to begin with as compared with the links between religion and evolution or homosexuality — mostly disappear when other factors that help shape views on this issue are taken into account. Statistical analysis reveals that views on global warming are much more closely linked with demographic and political attributes than with religion." Near the end of the article, it states: "With evolution, there is a clear and strong objection to the scientific consensus among people who accept a literal interpretation of the Bible. Significant numbers within other religious groups believe that evolution occurred, but was divinely guided. In contrast, beliefs about global warming appear to be only tangentially related to religious beliefs. And on the issue of homosexuality — where a scientific consensus has yet to form and where significant cultural traditions may continue to influence individual attitudes — religious beliefs are strongly related to opinions, although even the non-religious are conflicted." The only topic that stands out as definitive is evolution. All others are more spurious and less directly/exclusively correlated.

Perhaps mentioning these other topics in the article would help in making contrast between topics in research. Both these studies do look at multiple topics and usually focus on the "hot" ones. The Big Bang, abiogenesis, and unfromitarianism, are not among the hot topics as having these ideas does not make one anti-religious or anything of that nature. Perhaps you are thinking of metaphysical naturalism, an atheistic philosophy (not a scientific position or concept), which I am sure many religious people would disagree with. In contrast, mere naturalism is not really a problem for anyone. --Ramos1990 (talk) 08:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The issue is that the source is only looking at polls for 3 topics, and did not look at other scientific topics, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

To Ramos1990: the main problem is evolution-deniers don't just think of evolution as changes in allele variation over successive generations. Many subscribe, e.g., to a Kent Hovind-esque 'six definitions of evolution', which rejects everything from cosmology to geology. There's also Ben Stein, who has on many occasions criticized evolution for not explaining gravity, thermodynamics, or the laws of physics. It's quite clear that they use evolution as a by-word for scientific investigation of the distant past. So the statement that evolution is the 'only' thing contested by most Americans is just not giving the whole picture. --Euniana/Talk 16:54, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hey IRWolfie and Euniana, the Pew study report shows some contrast on "hot" topics in public policy which are not that much in the first place. They indeed do identify other topics in there too which you have mentioned before, but in all reality the public only has a very small range of topics introduced to them in a general fashion in the first place. Euniana's concerns about the ambiguity of evolution in the study is not valid since they clearly specified evolution of "Humans and other living things" specifying evolution to be biological, not cosmological or chemical or other variant meanings of that term. I agree that "evolution" is an overused term for many things and it is quite ambiguous, in most usages, but the study clearly specified which version it was talking about. The Pew study and the source in the article are both done by the same authors.

No study can exhaust all minor details of topics (most people are not aware of the subtopics either) for sure. However, any agreements or disagreements with consensus on some topics do not correlate with perceptions of science automatically. It an error to assume such as direct linkage. After all, the most religious countries have more positive views and are more optimistic of science than non-religious countries globally. Furthermore, challenging or disagreeing with consensus is not anti-scientific at all since Nobel prize winning researchers often have complained that their ideas were rejected and resisted by publishers because they deviated from "accepted facts" (consensus). Here is the extensive quote on the "Culture of Science" source which should clear up a lot: "Our review of three important issues on the public policy agenda in the United States suggest that although there is a potential for broad religiously based conflict over science, the scope of this conflict is limited. Only on one issue does a significant portion of the public deny strong consensus for religious reasons: evolution. The significance of this disagreement should not be understated, but it is decidedly unrepresentative of the broader set of scientific controversies and issues. As already noted, it is difficult to find any other major policy issues on which there are strong religious objections to scientific research. Religious concerns do arise in connection with a number of areas of life sciences research, such as the effort to develop medical therapies from embryonic stem cells. But these are not rooted in disputes about the truth of scientific research, and can be found across the spectrum of religious sentiment."

They also mention "It is also worth remembering that religion has no special claim to beliefs that run counter to strongly corroborated factual evidence. Psychological research has finds that people sometimes believe what they want to believe when they want to believe is compelling to them - for whatever reason, whether religious or not. In this respect, the examples of of religious faith trumping scientific truth do not constitute a special case of the rejection of string evidence of truth." One interesting contrast is that in the US, non-religious people are no more likely than the religious population to have New Age beliefs and practices.

In [3] they specify: "At the same time, such conflicts – where scientists and people of faith explicitly disagree on concrete facts – are not common in the United States today. Indeed, the theory of evolution as a means to explain the origins and development of life remains the only truly concrete example of such a conflict. To a lesser extent, faith also plays a role in shaping views about the nature of homosexuality and, to a much smaller degree, global warming." --Ramos1990 (talk) 18:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I can't say I'm convinced that the average evolution-skeptic can overcome their preconceptions of what evolution is that easily. That's why I think something more nuanced here is absolutely necessary. For example, what's the percentage of people who reject evolution for religious reasons but accept nontheistic abiogenesis? Logically, that number can't be very high. Since Gallup polls indicate roughly half of the American population subscribe to some form of Young Earth creationism, they would also by default reject uniformitarianism and the Big Bang. If we take the Pew report at face value, we have a contradiction. --Euniana/Talk 00:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, people do not have complex or even the most detailed views and nuances of views on evolution. Not even researchers themselves since the concept is applied to so many topics in such causal ways that serious considerations of minor details are not really commonly looked at. This usually happens when anyone gets comfortable with the ideas they grew up with. Perhaps you are reifying metaphysical naturalism (a non-scientific concept and not a requirement for science either) into your understanding of what science is. If you ever get a chance to look at research in the sociology of religion or just sociology in general, you will find out that people have incongruent beliefs all the time. It is the norm. They do not have systematic and uniform agreements and disagreements like you are imagining. Which is why Young earth creationists can disagree with biological evolution and believe in a young earth and still show strong support for the sciences. Its also the reason that secular atheists create and participate in religions too (Raelianism, Church of Satan, Unitarian Universalism, Ethical Culture, etc). I am sure you can agree that agreeing or disagreeing with some part does not automatically mean that one agrees or disagrees with other parts or even the whole.

Beliefs people have are not rigidly and systematically linked to other beliefs automatically or "by default" nor do people have wholesale agreements or disagreements with everything about an idea. A simple example of incongruence is the fact that though the National Academy of Science has a majority membership of people who do not have a belief in god and are for all practical purposes are "not" religious, they have produced very pro-religious materials such as claiming that there is no conflict between science and religion because each one focuses on different aspects of human experience. Beliefs do not automatically lead to another for sure. I am sure everyone would agree that helping others is a good thing, but translating that belief into action or behavior in an individual is complex and often incongruent. Otherwise, we would see more people helping others, no? The general idea of natural order is not something anyone has any problems with. Its a basic belief everyone has on reality. However, you may find people rejecting metaphysical worldviews like metaphysical naturalism because metaphysical naturalism is a doctrine and belief system. Rejecting metaphysical naturalism, of course is not even close to rejection of science since science is not an atheistic enterprise. Its pretty much theistically and atheistically indifferent - which is why both atheists and theists use it all the time to support their views. The fact that the originators of the modern versions of the ideas you mention: the Big Bang, abiogenesis (via spontaneous generation), and uniformitarianism were all Christains/religious, if you read up on the history, should clear a few things up. So the assumption of wholesale and systematic denial is very much improbable. --Ramos1990 (talk) 01:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

That isn't really what's being argued here. What I'm saying is, if nearly half of the American population are Young Earth creationists, then they form the majority of anti-evolutionists in the 74%. By definition, YEC rejects uniformitarianism; they have to believe that rates of radioactive decay and the speed of light differed in the past to support a young world. They also have to reject many foundational concepts in geology, e.g. stratigraphy and the geologic time scale. They may not say it, but most anti-evolutionists question more than just evolution. It's not really relevant that these scientific ideas came from religious scientists when there are large numbers of people who question them on religious grounds. --Euniana/Talk 15:24, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmm....the fundamental concepts do not seem to be the issue. Its usually the uses of assumptions and extrapolations that are disagreed with in general, no the raw concepts themselves. They all have some utility somewhere, but not everywhere! In context of Uniformitarianism, Stephen Gould wrote in his work "Punctuated Equilibrium": "I made a personal discovery (as others did independently) that became important in late 20th-century studies of the history of geology. I had been schooled in the conventional view that the catastrophists (aka "bad guys") had invoked supernatural sources of paroxysmal dynamics in order to compress the earth's history into the strictures of biblical chronology. I read and reread all the classical texts of late 18th and early 19th century catastrophism in their original languages and I could find no claim for supernatural influences upon the history of the earth. In fact, the catastrophists seemed to be advancing the opposite claim that we should base our causal conclusions upon a literal reading of the empirical record, whereas the uniformitarians (aka "good guys") seemed to be arguing, in an opposing claim less congenial with the stereotypical empiricism of science, that we must make hypothetical inferences about the gradualistic mechanics that a woefully imperfect record does not permit us to observe directly." One can see that assumptions and extrapolations play a massive role in both interpretations and that evidence is not unidirectional nor obvious.

Look at YEC on natural selection for instance [4] of a case in point of how assumptions are the culprit, not the concepts in and of themselves. Rates are always debatable in unobserved periods of time since of course we do not have direct information on them. It is what makes origins research quite volatile and prone to changes with diverse opinions in between. No evidence ever speaks for itself and is prone to be interpreted in diverse ways. Either way one must keep in mind that the majority of the sciences have nothing to do with origins research nor are these historical questions the goal of the vast majority of sciences or scientific research. So conclusions people reach on these speculative fields, whether good or bad, are not really representative of peoples views on the majority of the sciences which are about measurable and observable phenomena today. Hope this clarifies a bit on my side. --Ramos1990 (talk) 21:57, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

You seem to have moved off on a bit of a tangent there. The issue is that YECs do reject other aspects of science to fit their world view, thus the current text is misleading. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:24, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I was addressing Euniana and your extrapolated concerns - which are beyond what the sources say at this point. The current text in the article is not misleading, pretty much is a copy and paste of what the sources say on evolution (which is extensively mentioned in the previous statement in the WP article). The sources in the article clearly state that evolution is the only concrete example of conflict on consensus views in the US and that it does not representative of science as a whole or most other scientific issues. This is pretty much in line with wikipedia protocol in representing the sources adequately for what they say, no? Of course you, Euniana, and I discussing tangential issues would be more WP:SYN, but I do not plan on putting our ideas in the article, unless a source mentions such claims. Both sources mention that conflicts do not come mainly or exclusively from religious sources either. They both note that psychological data has shown that people have conflicts for many other reasons and that conflicts involving religion are not at all special or qualitative different. It is what the sources say, no? --Ramos1990 (talk) 21:54, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

We should put in a subsection on religion's most contribution to science: evolution denial. It really needs to be mentioned here. Denying the theory of evolution in liu of scripture is a huge part of the relationship between religion and science, especially from Christians and Muslims. Where should we insert the new subsection? Off the top of my head, I think we can easily get some material to support this from Dawkins, the NAS website and perhaps one other source, can anyone else think of a good one? Perhaps some christian apologist historian or scientist to poopoo it and explain it all away?Greengrounds (talk) 18:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I think it would make sense to have such a section. But it shouldn't make it look as if there is an inherent anti-evltionism in christianity or any other religion. Millions of Christians are happy to believe in evolution and god at the same time. Not all Christians are creationists, and not all creationists are anti-evolutionists, and not all anti-evolutionist creationists are Young Earth Creationists.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. The christians that reject a literal interpretation of scripture generally don't have a problem with accepting science. Same with the muslims. There must be something inherent to those religions that makes many of their followers reject evolution, because there are so many of them, but all we can do here is present facts. Where do you think the section should go? It would be easier to do a universal section that covers christian and islamic rejections together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greengrounds (talk • contribs) 18:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Maunus. Sections should be general. If Greengrounds is going to add it, it should show both the positive views and negtive views on evolution in general, not have the section be slanted only to denial since again, many Muslims and Christian do not deny evolution wholesale even Intelligent design proponents. It should not be too extensive as that could result in WP:COATRACK. Perhaps we can mention the Christians that helped make the idea of Wallace and Darwin possible such as Charles Lyell or Robert Chambers or even medievals like Augustine and Thomas Aquinas. Ronald Numbers in his study on the creationism mentions that all serious Christian scientists by the end of the 19th century had accepted or sympathized with the theories evolution. But one must be careful not to do WP:SYN on such a hot topic. Other articles focus on that topic specifically and extensively so linking to those would be the best option many of these cases. Of course wholesale denial of evolution is also a myth and so these perspectives should also be mentioned if you choose to go with it. --Ramos1990 (talk) 18:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Obviously this article is Christian POV in some parts, this article needs to be Neutral POV

I made an edit where I undid some block quoting from an obviously non-neutral source, and a quote that sets the tone for the article. Most of the people used here are theologians, not scientists. This is especially evident in the section on Influence of a biblical world view on early modern science. This section should be slimmed down as it is full of controversial statements that would not be agreed upon by non-christians. I mean, this article goes out of it's way to try and say that most early christians did not think the earth was flat. When I tried to remove the block quoting, user Tgeorgescu undid the edits. Also he undid an edit where I was trying to bring the aforementioned section back in line. It is bloated with christian POV garbage, stuff that would be laughed out of the academy of science. Maybe we could have some input from some people who are actually in the academy instead of "theologians", who by the way are NOT scientists.Greengrounds (talk) 00:17, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

NPOV does not mean that non-neutral views cannot be quoted or described. I haven't looked at the article yet, but will proceed to do so.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Having read the section in question I don't see a POV problem. It attributes views very clearly to those who espouse them. If there are any views you feel are not sufficiently represented you should present sources so that we can integrate them.[this editor is not a theologian or a christian, not that it matters].User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:50, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I have done so.Greengrounds (talk) 04:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Greengrounds, you had deleted mostly historians of science views like Floris Cohen and Gary Frengren (both of which had quite relevant statements to the sections they were in). Since you did not really provide a reasonable justification for removal it was reverted. Obviously both sources were reliable academic sources there were relevant to the topic and they both provided a contrast to other opinions in the sections (i.e. conflict thesis and Christian influence in making modern science). Also as Maunus has noted, the viewpoints are clearly attributed to those who made the statements. There is no POV problem here. The only issue here may be that you may not like what they say WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is not a valid reason for removal of content. Please keep in mind that even having a section on conflict is already a POV so other responses to the POV are expected. There should be no problem in these sections as long as the attributions are made clear, the sources are relevant to the section or topic, and that the sources are reliable.

Perhaps the Cohen paragraph can be condensed a bit? For the Gary Frengren quote, we can probably remove the quote box and leave it as so that it does not stick out so much. On another issue, I am not sure why you are complaining about theologians here. You deleted the views of historians, not theologians. Please keep in mind that it is generally in Christian cultures that the issue of religion and science emerged as a topic, not in most other cultures, so research on the history of science and religion tends to focus on Europe and Christian culture. Most sources you will find on the topic by non-Christians and anti-Christians tend to revolve almost exclusively on Christian/European/American cultures too. We have more information available on European/American Christian culture than on any other regions so this kind of focus is expected. If you find other reliable academic sources which say the opposite to what Frengren and Cohen have to say, then please add them to the article.

In context of the Academy of Sciences, would you like to add their position on the relationship between science and religion? Clearly they support a NOMA position [5], not a conflict position. But I leave that to you.--Ramos1990 (talk) 01:33, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I note that editors of this page are remarking that Greengrounds is deleting historians on dubious grounds, misapprehending wikipedia policies on NPOV, and may not be well informed on the issues on which he is editing. That editor is currently the subject of multiple complaints regarding similar behaviour (see here). If abusive posts on this or your own talk page or if misquotation of sources, deletion of content against consensus, POV pushing, use of unreliable sources, insertion of contentious material, or other non-compliance with wikipedia guidelines is repeated here, please advise the discussion on the Administrator's noticeboard and in the meantime, please continue review his edits closely. Ozhistory (talk) 03:15, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Ozhistory for the heads up. We will keep this in mind. So far Greengrounds has followed Wikipedia protocol on this article, but we will keep our ears and eyes open. --Ramos1990 (talk) 03:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Ozhistory I have already asked you twice to review the Wikipedia:Harassment and Wikipedia:Harassment#Wikihounding. Take good care to modify your own behaviour. Following me around to different talk pages like you have been doing, is not very Wiki like.

Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.

Greengrounds (talk) 04:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Ramos 1990, I agree with your assessment 100% and I see you made that change. Of course, NOMA does not mean there is not conflict between science and religion, and as you can see the Academy of science has ruled out intelligent design and creationism as scientific theories, so anybody who holds those theories to be true, would really have a conflict with science on their hands, wouldn't they? I'm glad you made the edit, but I think we can expand on it a little bit more. Where NOMA draws the line, and I think we need to make that evident is that "faith" is not science.Greengrounds (talk) 04:29, 1 September 2013 (UTC) Ramos1990 (talk) Also, I don't like it because it is not written from a neutral POV. Well, certain parts aren't, and I've made a contribution on the biblical world view to science. Though you may think scholarly opinion on this is all wine and roses, there is a historical context that needs to be mentioned here, and there are other opinions on the matter, opinions that see the "biblical world view" as a hindrance to science. I have included a short history on the matter, and I would also like to include some more scholarly opinion on the matter, which will run in stark contrast to the heralding of christian science as the saving grace of all modern science that is espoused in that section and in the article in general.Greengrounds (talk) 04:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Greengrounds, you are making false allegations, or again misapprehending wikipedia guidelines. I have advised other editors on this page of the complaints from multiple editors against you because, as an experienced editor, I wish to maintain article standards in articles in which I am interested, or of which I have knowledge. I am not in the least motivated by wanting to "irritate you". Multiple editors have noted you are frequently deleting reliably sourced material and inserting poorly written or sourced material across multiple articles. In these circumstances it is safest for all concerned if "many eyes" are on the ball, hence I have advised editors on this page, at the Historicity of Jesus page and the current admin notice against you of questions raised about your edits. Ozhistory (talk) 04:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I've highlighted the part that you are violating: the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. Please focus on the topic on this talk page. If you have nothing to add, then add nothing.Greengrounds (talk) 05:03, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Greengrounds, Neutral point of view means per WP:NPOV "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." The significant views can be all over the place (from full blown peace to full blown war and everything in between) and there is no problem in citing them, as long as they are from reliable sources, but it is important to condense your additions to get to the point while reflecting what the source says and attributing who said what. Also please add page numbers to your citations from books so that others can pin point where you got the information. Also be careful not to do WP:SYN and WP:OR. Look at WP:BUTITSTRUE to prevent some issues in the future. I don't assume everything is "wine and roses" on the section, and I also do not assume everything is "poop and garbage" on the topic either.

In terms of the NAS, their views are their views, and they are not binding on anyone nor any scientists. Obviously most scientists never read or adhere to their opinions and NAS certainly does not have immutable statements. Other academies of sciences in other nations are certainly not bounded by anything they say either nor is the NAS bounded by what other academies have to say. They are just like Nobel prize winners - negligible and unrepresentative of rank and file scientists and not really representative of most scientists views on ANY particular topic. But still with the current assembly of the NAS, they certainly disagree that science or religion are not in conflict inherently at all. Which is why they state "Attempts to pit science and religion against each other create controversy where none needs to exist." But this is not binding on anyone either. --Ramos1990 (talk) 05:38, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

At the risk of boring other editors, I will persist a little further against Greeengrounds' false allegation. In saying above "I've highlighted the part that you are violating", Greengrounds you are demonstrating again your inability to read a understand a source, or reproduce it on a page accurately. Wikihounding is defined unambiguously as requiring "an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor". When looking at such definitions, you cannot read one sentence in isolation from an ensuing sentence. Furthermore, the definition specifically states that "Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles". In the opinion of multiple editors, including admins, you are repeating unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy across multiple pages, which is why your edits on this and other pages have been raised here. Accordingly, multiple editors are watching and requesting that your edits on these pages be watched. Ozhistory (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Influence of a biblical world view on early modern science

A few early Christians, influenced certainly by Aristotle and Plato, were willing to accept new ideas from science that contradicted scripture, particularly such ideas that evolved from the Greeks of the time, such as ideas of the earth's sphericity. However,the majority of Christians promptly rejected the idea, it seemed to them to be fraught with dangers to their interpretations of scripture. Among the first who took up arms against it was Eusebius, who endeavoured to turn off this idea by bringing scientific studies into contempt, and Lactantius referred to the ideas of Astronomers as "bad and senseless," and he opposed the doctrine of the earth's sphericity both from Scripture and reason. St. John Chrysostom and Ephraem Syrus also exerted their influence against the scientific evidence of the earth's sphericity. Other early Christians, Theophilus of Antioch in the second century, and Clement of Alexandria in the third, with others in centuries following, in the face of current scientific theories, which they viewed as heathenism, drew from their Bibles a new Christian theory, based largely on the Genesis account. In the sixth century this christian theory culminated in a complete and detailed system of the universe, claiming to be based upon Scripture. The sacred Christian theory struggled long and vigorously but in vain, as authorities in later ages, like Albert the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, Dante, and Vincent of Beauvais, felt obliged to accept some scientific theories. However resistance was met, from Martin Luther, Melanchthon, and Calvin were very strict in their adherence to the exact letter of Scripture. In the times immediately following the Reformation matters were even worse. The interpretations of Scripture by Luther and Calvin became as sacred to their followers as the Scripture itself. When Georg Calixtus ventured, in interpreting the Psalms, to question the accepted belief that "the waters above the heavens" were contained in a vast receptacle upheld by a solid vault, he was bitterly denounced as heretical.[60]

This is what I introduced to the article. Ramos1990 (talk)

Changed it to this: According to Andrew Dickson White's conflict thesis from the 19th century, few early Christians were willing to accept pagan ideas form the Greeks and many Christians through the ages rejected the sphericity of the earth. Dickinson also argues that immediately following the Reformation matters were even worse. The interpretations of Scripture by Luther and Calvin became as sacred to their followers as the Scripture itself. For instance, When Georg Calixtus ventured, in interpreting the Psalms, to question the accepted belief that "the waters above the heavens" were contained in a vast receptacle upheld by a solid vault, he was bitterly denounced as heretical.[60] Today, much of the scholarship in which the conflict thesis was originally based is considered to be inaccurate. For instance, the claim that people of the Middle Ages widely believed that the Earth was flat was first propagated in the same period that originated the conflict thesis[61] and is still very common in popular culture. Modern scholars regard this claim as mistaken, as the contemporary historians of science David C. Lindberg and Ronald L. Numbers write: "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference."[61][62]

Notice that the tone is now changed and key words like "Few christians were willing to accept "pagan" ideas from the Greeks" pagan ideas that the world was round? I have changed that to "scientific ideas" from the Greeks. Moreover, the new revision skips over all of the early christians, their names, their wiki links who's "biblical views" were in conflict with science. Now, what is the problem here? Are we not allowed to see that early christians from 100AD through after the Protestant reformation rejected science for scripture? This tradition continues to this day (read the 40-50% of Americans who are YEC) The "conflict theory" has nothing to do with this book by White. White presents history here. For Ramos1990 (talk) to interpret this through the "conflict theory" is incorrect. Secondly, the article constantly heralds the "flat earth myth" thing which says that history incorrectly recorded Columbus and his contemporaries as flat earthers. That may be true, but not much before that, they were flat earthers, as evidenced by White's historicity. If you need me to source all of the assertions presented by White I can. That's no problem. But it seems like you removed most of it because Wikipedia:IDON'TLIKE.Greengrounds (talk) 05:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

This is to condense the sources to the just the core of what they say and to note the core claims. Obviously this article is NOT about only the view of one person or historian so we need to keep the information to the point so that other points of view get mentioned. This is the point of NPOV. To collect many insights/perspectives on one topic is the point of an encyclopedia. I think you may be confusing "Political correctness" with "NPOV". They are not the same. It is important to state who said the claims also and to also cite pages for the specific claims. Since you added the information, you need to cite the pages that corresponds to certain points. In the case of Andrew Dickinson, his book is part of the conflict thesis - which is no longer supported by the majority of historians of science. He makes certain claims as a historian (such as sphericity of the earth being unbelieved by most people in the past). Modern historians have assessed his claim and have concluded that the spherical earth was widely believed in the middle ages (mainly through Aristotle and Ptolemy which were extensively studied in the medieval period) and also through lunar eclipses showing the spherical shape (shades of shadow), etc. Ergo the flat earth myth.

The whole section on Biblical influences has positions by individuals and contrasting positions by other individuals on similar topics so it makes sense to represent other contrasting significant views. WP:NPOV "means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." In some cases there are contrasting significant views, in others, not that much. But in this case there are a few. To leave those out, knowing they exist would be against NPOV. Also the job of a wikipedian is not to evaluate if something is true or false WP:BUTITSTRUE. Rather our job is to find a reliable source that is relevant to the article and to cite the source in context of what it says, and not go beyond that. Scholars do not agree on everything so why should we expect to agree one everything here too? The goal for this encuclopedia and for us a wikipedians is to reliably mention multiple perspectives, if possible, and leave it at that. --Ramos1990 (talk) 06:01, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Rejection of scientific principles for scripture, persecution of scientists throughout the ages.

This article, sadly does not mention the rejection of scientific principles by religion throughout the ages, nor the persecution of scientists. The mention of the many people who rejected the theory that the earth is spherical seems to be taboo here, as evidenced by their removal in revisions of my edits. Also, there seems to be little to no mention of the rejection of a heliocentric earth, particularly in the "biblical wold view" section. That section, btw seems to be in need of a different title.

It does however, proudly make the uncited claim that "galileo, copernicus, etc." were christians, but it (laughably) leaves out details of their persecution and/or murder by christians in the name of scripture.Greengrounds (talk) 06:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I would recommend you read up on some current research in the history of science. White's book is not taken seriously by researchers today since it does have some pretty significant mistakes. Some of the myths that are espoused by the White-Draper thesis are assessed by multiple historians of science in "Galileo Goes To Jail and Other Myths About Science and Religion" Edited by Ronald Numbers. Ronald Numbers is an agnostic by the way. Of course there are other resources that available too on these topics, but this collection addresses many of the misconceptions about the history of science and religion. For example, the flat earth myth, Giardo Bruno was a martyr for modern science, and Galileo was imprisoned and tortured for his inclinations to Copernicus. Of course some of these reifications exist through White's books. I have read both volumes myself and so it would be a good learning experience on your part to read more on the history of science from diverse sources that are also more current historical studies and then come up with your own conclusions on the issues. --Ramos1990 (talk) 07:23, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Though White may be associated with that theory, the historacal facts presented in my edit are not contested. The historicity of that book is not contested, and can you back that up that it is not taken seriously by researchers, or is that just your opinion. It came recommended byNeil deGrasse Tyson, so I'll take his word over yours on it's scientific appeal. I agree with you though that the book is old, and i'd be happy if we moved that entire paragraph, including the rebuttals that you have provided over to the section on conflict theory, perhaps you'd agree.

As for Galileo, it has noting to do with White's book as it is cited here, so that's irrelevant. Also, I think the section we've been editing is getting derailed. We should be presenting facts relevant to the subtopic, which was something along the lines of "The contributions of a Biblical world view to modern science" I've already said I have issues with the POV of that subtopic as a whole, since IMO it should be titled "hindrances of a biblical world view to modern science". To be NPOV, it would have to be somewhere in between these two POVs. Secondly, AFIK Wikipolicy is that scholarly opinion is not the only thing that should set the tone. A few pundits' comments here and there is fine, but at some point as an Encyclopedia you have to present some facts. That the churches have and continue to reject science for faith is a fact, and it needs to be presented here. That Galileo was a victim of a "biblical" world view, that gave god and his interpreters ultimate power and made outsiders into heathens and heretics. I'm not saying we have to present that fact in a certain way, but I am saying we have to present the fact that yes, some scientists were killed and shut down for their "proving scripture wrong", and some scientists even today are faced with the same type of persecution from various religions. So that's why I started introducing Galileo to that section. As for White, if you are contesting the historicity or POV of some of his stuff, that's fine, I will work on finding other sources, and thanks for the help and the rewrite, but we might as well put it in the Conflict theory section. Greengrounds (talk) 10:27, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry to say, but White's History of Warfare literally is half of the Conflict Thesis along with Draper's writings. They are always named in combination as the White-Draper thesis or the Conflict thesis. This is well known and repeated in the 4 refs from historians of science in the article that say that modern historians no longer support it. Indeed White and Draper do have a tendency of not doing a good job in writing history in an objective fashion and they are selective in their sources without calibrating with other sources on the matter. David Lindberg who is a well established historian of science, provides a break down of some of the errors in the claims [6]. I already mentioned a recent collection from many historians of science that focus on the myths found in White's book and others like him, called "Galileo Goes To Jail and Other Myths About Science and Religion" Edited by Ronald Numbers. Indeed Numbers says, "Historians of science have known for years that White's and Draper's accounts are more propaganda than history" (p.6) and provides references on that point to back it up. The collection also details the myth that some scientists were persecuted for their scientific ideas. The Church never really made doctrines of either Geocentrism or Heliocentrism or evolution or any other "controversies" and so there was no theological source for persecution. Copernicans were never persecuted for heliocentric views and Copernicus himself in the preface of "Revolutions" dedicated his work to the Pope. If persecutions did occur, then where is the list of martyrs? Also the historical fact that from the early church period, pagan scientific sources were studied and used (and preserved!) in the writings of members of church speaks volumes to the amount of acceptance for ideas they had. Things like this is what makes the conflict thesis so absurd. Galileo was an idiot for taking advantage of the Pope's personal blessing to write on the heliocentric system. Pagan sources were obviously used to learn scientific information and it is Christians who transmitted Greek and Roman science texts to Arabic (for Islamic science) then to Latin throughout the middle ages. So I take the word of multiple well established and reliable historians of science on this because they study the history of science from the direct primary sources and are experts in sciences at different periods (ancient, medieval, pre-modern, and modern). Tyson is a scientist, not an expert or a reliable source for the history of science as he has not shown to have read primary sources to make his assessments of his beliefs concerning the history of science. I myself have read many primary sources from ancient, medieval, pre-modern, and modern periods from all sorts of scientists in these periods and yes, the conflict thesis in White and Drapers accounts (I've read both) are pretty indeed inaccurate/exaggerated.

Of course, non of this means that we should remove White from the article. It just means that you should probably be aware of academic assessments of his account. I agree that the White addition and the counter opinions belong in the conflict thesis section better, but then again it does contribute to the "Influence of a biblical world view on early modern science" too. The section title is ok because it is generic. The influences can be either good or bad. By renaming the section to what you propose "hindernaces of biblical..." would indeed potentially make a POV issue in which we would have to add another section for the opposing views. We should leave the section title as general as it currently is. Good luck on your search for academic backing of White's book. You will need it as I could not find a credible historian of science to back him up. :) --Ramos1990 (talk) 16:51, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

There's a bit of confusion here, in that the "conflict thesis" was never mentioned by White or Draper nor described exactly as such. The term became a way of understanding the relationship between science and religion, within the academic "history of science" community and among some theologians, in the past few decades. That said, plenty of people held attitudes similar to White and Draper before and after them, and their works were considered the most condensed expression of that view at the end of the 19th century.

I would say that in the scientific community, while nobody mentions the "conflict thesis," as many people hold views similar to it as don't, and this can be seen in the writings of Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, Steven Weinberg, Alan Sockol, Lawrence Krauss, etc. Their views have almost no representation in this article right now.

Furthermore, plenty of theologians, especially in a historical sense, found themselves hostile to scientific ideas or methodologies, and their views also have little representation here.

All that said, complaining won't get anyone anywhere: if you have an edit you think would benefit this article, you should implement it. But you can't expect other editors (like Ramos1990) to add content that they feel is unwarranted, or about which they have less expertise. -Darouet (talk) 18:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. We already have some comments from scientists throughout the article on what they personally believe on the relationships. So this should not be an issue as all "significant views" are already on the article from one extreme to another. Of course atheism has had problems with scientific consensus in the past as well when theological ideas were dominant too. This cuts both ways. See historical perspectives on atheism and science here [7]. The same stuff on editors applies to all other editors, including Darouet. The resistance of the Big Bang by many scientists who were comfortable with an eternal universe and did not like the implications of an origin are a more recent example of conflict from that end. Of course there were others too like in Soviet sciences in USSR and China. Its all over the place really. --Ramos1990 (talk) 19:05, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Darouet (talk) Yes, the rejection of science for scripture is something that has been happening forever. And is still happening today. I'm looking for "reliable" sources that show that.Greengrounds (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Greengrounds; I think that general (academic) surveys of European intellectual history since the Middle Ages are your best bet. Carl Sagan also writes a lot about this. -Darouet (talk) 00:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

See Carl Sagan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.103.250 (talk) 16:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Nyborg study

User:Maunus What method did you use to determine that "Nyborg is not a reliable source"? The study was published in Intelligence, which is a peer reviewed scientific journal. That is as reliable as we can get on Wikipedia, no? Many of the studies and stats in this article come from much more dubious sources, so if we are setting the standard that studies published in peer reviewed scientific journals are "not reliable", then we have allot of work to do in removing those other sources. Please explain your logic here, and what your plans are, moving forward. Are we to remove studies from less scholarly sources as well, or are we to re-introduce the study from Intelligence? Greengrounds (talk) 21:06, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

The fact that Nyborg has been accused of scientific fraud repeatedly. If you want to defend science against religion you should at least use studies by scholars who are considered competent scientists.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:09, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Like I said, it was published in a Peer reviewed scientific journal. In order to back that up, you'd have to come up with some evidence that the study is not reliable. If peer reviewed scientific journals are not considered reliable sourcing, then we have allot of work to do with this article. That someone was "accused of fraud" does not mean that his Peer reviewed work is unreliable. Greengrounds (talk) 21:16, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

He was not just accused, he was fired for it. Seriously, he is not a worthy champion of science.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:27, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Hmm...the study is on intelligence which are not directly related to the the topic at hand - which is science and religion. This is WP:COATRACK. I think I did something like this myself in this article a few years ago with intelleigence, and I removed it because it was not related to the topic. These studies best belong on the religiosity and intelligence page. --Ramos1990 (talk) 21:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you may be right. But there are several references to studies, like Is Religion Dangerous? by Keith Ward which are suspect, doesn't look like they are peer reviewed, and would fall into the same category as this one. Weren't you the one that introduced this section? Anyway, all i'm looking for is consistency in the way we apply our standards, so if you guys don't like this study, that's fine, and maybe we need to remove the sections on statistics because you're right they are highly susceptible to coatracking. In fact, most of the coatracking has already been done. Perhaps it's time we remove those sections entirely, at least so the article is consistent.Greengrounds (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

No, the "scientific studies on religion" section has been there for a long time and I have not read the sources for them either. I didn't really contribute there, except maybe once a long time ago on an already existing point. It always looked weird to me as it doesn't really address science and religion. Its kind of a tangent of miscellaneous stuff. Maybe we should delete that section as it may be coat racking or just an awkward leftover of many previous edits. Lets give it some time to see what others think on this. All other sections seem relevant though. --Ramos1990 (talk) 21:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, I have not heard any objections to deleting the lingering "scientific studies on religion" section per coat rack, so I will go ahead and delete it, per me and Greengrounds. Please feel free to revert if someone wants to keep it. --Ramos1990 (talk) 18:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Nyborg's study may be unreliable, and if that's the case, retractions, responses, or something similar should be provided to demonstrate that his study is unreliable.

That said, I would argue from an editorial perspective that we should refrain from citing the Nyborg study here. It is intuitively problematic: there might be a dozen mitigating factors including social background, income, education level and geography that would influence the outcome of the study. It is also likely offensive, and I don't think we'll learn anything more about the relationship between religion and science by reviewing articles about religion and intelligence. Lastly, though Nyborg's biography on wikipedia looks like a bit of a train wreck, much of his (controversial) seems to entail finding various populations, including women and immigrants, less intelligent than... native male Danes? -Darouet (talk) 00:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

It ok Darouet. Its not in the article anymore. Nyborg does have some questionable research under his belt and does think that intelligence is measurable enough to say significant things about people's intellectual capacities based on social inclinations and genetic makeup (race and sex). --Ramos1990 (talk) 02:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Any differences between science and religion?

Earlier versions of this article (until this edit by Ramos) noted some simple differences between science and religion, without casting any judgement on these differences. After I restored that description recently, Ramos removed it, explaining that this was based on past talk page discussion. That discussion can be found here and does not demonstrate any consensus to remove a description of some differences between science and religion, so I've restored the old material.

I don't find this derogatory in any way towards religion or science, and it will be helpful for readers, hoping to learn about the relationship between religion and science, to have a few words actually describing what each is. -Darouet (talk) 14:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The issue is in the claim science has different methodologies than religion. As I mentioned in the archived discussion, since theology has fused all sorts of things from empirical evidences to revelations and vice versa (natural theology and the history of theology and science (Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine) for instance), the list of "methodologies" should not be there since as religion overlaps science in methodologies. Individuals have mixed all the methodologies as well such as Francis Bacon in his work on the scientific method. Also where in the article does it really specify the methodologies for both? There is no section on it specifically. The statement was likely a remnant from previous edits that was never corrected. The intro should be a summary of the article, no? If any distinctions are semi valid, its natural and supernatural even though naturalism is also in important part of religion as well. What do you think? I think by mentioning that science generally investigates things in the natural world and that religion gives some significant attention to things beyond it, would make much more sense instead. And is broad enough to fit in the intro.--Ramos1990 (talk) 22:14, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ramos, I agree with much of what you're saying: the Christian intellectual tradition has many examples of great philosophers who pioneered aspects of logic, natural sciences, and of course employed reason. You mention Thomas Aquinas... and could have also mentioned Roger Bacon, William of Ockham... I'm sure you know many others. Furthermore, scientists themselves have traditions that are a part of their work.

That said, religions all have faith, and most have revelation, whereas science is clearly grounded entirely in evidence, empiricism and reason as a means of employing them. Is that contested? Addressing the many different views on reason even within Christianity alone would be a minefield, and I think the "generally" qualifier at the sentence's beginning makes it clear that there are exceptions, while allowing readers to have a sense of typical distinctions.

In this sense, I don't think we can call earlier versions of the article an accident: that previous, and now current, description of differences has a valid purpose.

We could write a section on what religion and science are, generally, with a short paragraph for each. If we did that, and wrote a paragraph describing each, would you have proposed text (something rough) that you think would work? -Darouet (talk) 19:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, glad to hear your response. For the sake of the intro, I think we can just amend it to say Science and religion have generally included approaches to knowledge of the universe in diverse ways. Science acknowledges reason, empiricism, and evidence and religions have included revelation, faith and sacredness. We can remove the "despite these differences," clause and leave the rest as is. I think this makes it more clear and general and is more appropriate for the intro. What do you think? In terms of the paragraphs on what science and religion are, the ideas for both seem to be scattered all of over the article already, and their interactions of course. It may be a good idea to give a general intro to both enterprises of human activity by just taking some parts of the intro pages in science and religion. It should be short and linked to the main articles, if you want to take that route.--Ramos1990 (talk) 20:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I think that some of what you propose would help, but think that the "diverse ways" statement is just obfuscating. What about,

"Science and religion generally pursue knowledge of the universe using different methodologies. Science acknowledges reason, empiricism, and evidence, while religions include revelation, faith and sacredness. Despite their differences, most scientific and technical innovations prior to the the Scientific revolution were achieved by societies organized by religious traditions."

That would leave the differences somewhat more ambiguous, and include your proposal to use the word "include," which is truthful, and would help the reader understand differences without stating that religions don't include reason. -Darouet (talk) 21:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Ok. Sounds good to me. I will make the minor change. --Ramos1990 (talk) 22:11, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Improvement of introduction

The following sentence is pointless.

"Despite these differences, most scientific and technical innovations prior to the Scientific revolution were achieved by societies organized by religious traditions."

Before the Scientific revolution, all societies were organized by religious traditions. It sounds like a "let's be kind with religious people, let's give them a point" sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeanPeup (talk • contribs) 16:08, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

There are huge arguments, as well as evidences that so much of science has been borrowed from the religious scriptures, that are still some scriptures that tend to be admired by notable scientists, for their compatible presentation with science. When someone with scholarly view target "religion", it is meant for all major religions, not just one or two or three. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:13, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with some of Bladesmulti's reply but agree that we should keep the sentence. Having some strong interest and affection for scripture and for scientific knowledge, I can't think of a single fact or method within science that has been borrowed from scripture. However, scientific developments for many hundreds of years were achieved by societies and mindsets that understood them within the religious intellectual framework of the period. That's not just a "point" for religious people, it's a historical fact that we want to accurately describe. -Darouet (talk) 07:17, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Question

I am doing a class assignment and I am unsure of where to put this information that I got from a scholarly article. What I want to add is, Do you have any recommendations of where I should put this information?Britt2244 (talk) 19:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

References

Modify and expand the last paragraph of Relationship_between_religion_and_science#Hinduism? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Empiricism and Religion

I'm sure most users will understand that religions have invariably arisen as a result of interpretation of subjective experience - that is, someone feels that they have directly connected to what they see as divine/sacred, and they relay their experience to others, who begin some form of practice based on this revelation. Furthermore, a number of the oldest extant religions (e.g. Buddhism, Hinduism) have at least some of their denominations based firmly on the exploration and categorisation of these "mystical" states.

At this point, it seems inaccurate to state that science is based on empiricism any more than religion; both take their evidence directly from first hand experience. The difference is that science is focused on the machinations of the physical universe, while religion is focused on the machinations of human consciousness. The practice of various "spiritual techniques" (e.g. meditation, repetition of words or verses, austerities, etc.) appears to lead aspirants into predictable states of mind (or the lack thereof); attaining such states does not rely on faith, but on practice in accordance with the teachings of those who have attained them before. This is empiricism at its finest, no different from conducting an experiment repeatedly and cataloguing the results. Ought the beginning of the article not be amended to make this clear? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.217.127.78 (talk) 01:45, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I think the empiricism of religion and science are too different things. Science can be based on empirical research (among other methods) whilst religion can be the empiricism of personal experience. The mediation and spiritual aspects you mention are different and religion is not defined by them. Religion is defined by a set of beliefs. For me then, science and religion are two different subjects and also ones that needn't conflict. --86.21.101.169 (talk) 01:10, 14 March 2014 (UTC)