Wikipedia:Featured article review/Jenna Jameson/archive1

Jenna Jameson

Featured article candidates/Jenna Jameson

Featured article review/Jenna Jameson/archive1

Notified: AnonEMouse, Dismas, Tabercil, WikiProject Pornography

Nominating since this article has many issues. Was nominated in 2007 and has since degraded quite a bit. Some issues were brought up when it was suggested that this article be featured on the Main Page. I have listed several issues on the talk page as well. I've listed several of these issues on the talk page of the article as well. I've fixed a few. However even with these small fixes, the article is still in poor shape.

I even found some information that was incredibly out of date. It listed her as having hosted a show "since 2005" with no indication that the show ended. According to imdb the show ended in 2006. See here I haven't even really read much of the article, just little bits and pieces. Each little I read has issues and requires rewriting, new sources, etc. Needs a lot of re-writing. As it stands I don't think it passes the standards of FA. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 02:07, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Eric Corbett

This article is very poorly written, miles away from meeting criterion 1a. Eric Corbett 21:07, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since your comment lacks specificity, I'm not sure what you are seeing (or not seeing) to say that its poorly written. This article has already been a featured article, so its in need of revision and updating. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 21:26, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Here are a few examples of some of the problems I see:

"Jameson and Grdina formed ClubJenna as an Internet pornography company in 2000 ... Early Club Jenna films starred Jameson herself".

The problem being ... the space between "Club" and "Jenna"? Fixed. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"In 2005, Jameson directed her first film, The Provocateur, released as Jenna's Provocateur in September 2006. The films were distributed and marketed by Vivid Entertainment ...". What films? Only one has been mentioned.

Only if you don't read the previous sentence in the paragraph. But, rephrased. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"adult-entertainment venues" but "adult entertainment industry stars"?

Picked one. It was very hard. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously too hard for you though, as you picked the wrong one. Eric Corbett 12:38, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"On June 22, 2006, Playboy announced that it had bought ClubJenna Inc. Playboy is a magazine, it can't buy anything.

Actually its a business entity, so yes it can. It even has 1st Amendment rights. For the statement to be correct, it should read Playboy Enterprises

But it doesn't say Playboy Enterprises, does it. Eric Corbett 22:20, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Then stop being lazy and FIX it, obviously you can type and you've identified the issue. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know who bought ClubJenna, and nor do I much care. If you know, then you fix it. And please don't ever call me "lazy" again; apart from being incorrect it's a clear personal attack that I will tolerate no more of. Eric Corbett 18:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, happy to refrain from snarky comments if you are willing to do the same... :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't made any any snarky comments, but if and when I do you'll be left in no doubt. Eric Corbett 19:44, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"While Jameson has stated in the past that she is bisexual ...". How could she have stated that in the future?

Specified. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"... whom she met in a visit to Costa Rica". Should be "on a visit".

Thanks. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"... though as of April 29, 2010, the investigation by the police department remains open". It's now 2014. Is it still open?

Made "ed" - though might delete altogether. That's the problem with writing about living people, when I was writing, that was her current relationship, so clearly important. Now it seems like just one of several. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 14:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A fundamental problem with this article though, which you will not be able to fix easily, is that it's written in the "In XXX she did this ... in YYY she did that ... in ZZZ she did the other" style. There's just no coherent narrative.

Eric Corbett 21:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great start! --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 22:07, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from User:Scalhotrod

A list of specific items would be helpful, just make sure not to delete any references when making edits. My understanding of this process is that its an opportunity to fix an article, not to delist it. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 21:26, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's an opportunity to do both; bear in mind it's not peer review, nor a hospital for sick articles. Eric Corbett 21:57, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain what you mean by either phrase? I'm not a porn star, are you? I was referring to the guidelines for the review process. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 22:07, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I mean that you can't expect those commenting to provide you with a comprehensive list of everything that's wrong with the article, nor expect it to remain here for however long it takes for all the problems to be solved. You have to read the article critically yourself, taking into account the examples provided here. Eric Corbett 22:19, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you're not hear to help with improving the article, then why participate at all? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've already given you several examples of where this article needs work, and in what way it needs to be rewritten, and I now look forward to the opportunity to vote for it to be delisted. Eric Corbett 18:55, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And I commented on your list, so thank you implicitly. Its clearly a well sourced article that's being watched by 340 users and has had over 2,500 unique editors, it will get the attention it needs. Your comments have helped that process, so thank you again... :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, nice to meet you Harizotoh (may I call you Hari?), hi again Eric (at least I think we've met, if you are the person once known as Malleus? Foolhammer was a great name), and very, very nice to meet you Scal! Thank you all for commenting. I think I was the main mouse who got Jenna Jameson to FA. I haven't been very active in the years since Jenna Jameson, but still see it as one of the main ways I've helped the Wikipedia, and would be grateful for the opportunity to fix all issues. As far as I understand, though, WP:FAR is, in fact, for fixing the issues wrong with the article. It's my first time here, but it does seem to say: "The aim is to improve articles rather than to demote them. Nominators must specify the featured article criteria that are at issue and should propose remedies. The ideal review would address the issues raised and close with no change in status." So while we (I'm speaking in the plural now, not as a crowned head of Europe, but hoping that those wishing the article to remain featured feel likewise) can't "expect it to remain here for however long it takes for all the problems to be solved", we absolutely can "expect those commenting to provide us with a comprehensive list of everything that's wrong with the article"; and not only that, but to suggest remedies for that list. The list you have provided is excellent, thank you, and it and any other specific issues brought up will be addressed over the next few days. Thank you for helping to improve the only WP:FA that, according to the FA master, will never be on the main page! --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 03:41, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To start with the specific issues and proposed remedies, though, Eric, could you specify what exactly is wrong with the "In XXX she did this" style that seems to irk you so, and after that, do propose a remedy? It seems like a straight forward and concise way of conveying the information, and was not a problem at the time of the initial nomination. If there is something specific that it lacks, we will endeavour to fix that to our utmost; but if it's just a matter of "I don't like it", then, unfortunately, personal tastes do vary (as Hannibal Lector may not have said, but should have). --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 03:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let me remind you of what FA criterion 1a says: its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard. Are you really trying to persuade that you feel that criterion is met by the "In XXX she did this ... In YYY she did that ..." style of presentation? If so, you're wasting your time. The remedy is clear; you need to rewrite the text in a more engaging style. Eric Corbett 14:33, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unbounded gratitude for the elucidation. Please forgive a poor, near illiterate mouse. As my own style is found hapless and wanting, prithee, wouldst you be so good as to give three exemplars of biography of a living person with styles that you do find satisfactory, that I could feebly ape? That would be most kind, as at the time I was nominating I neglected to ask your personal opinion, and I must now remedy that lack anon if not forthwith. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 15:04, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I note that when you made the original nomination back in 2007 at least three reviewers commented on the poor prose, and opposed on that basis, but they were ignored. Whether the subject of the biography is living or dead matters not one whit to the way the article is written, but take a look at Kylie Minogue for instance, or Martha Layne Collins. All that's different about BLPs is that you have to keep them up to date, and that hasn't been happening in this case, hence the article also fails FA criterion 1b, as well as 1a and 2c. Eric Corbett 15:39, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Someone needs to take a close look at the referencing in this article, which is all over the shop, and on its own would preclude this article from being featured:

What does a date "2013-111-11" mean? Or "2013-11-101"?

Date formats unified to Month Day, Year. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 03:39, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"When did Amazon become a publisher?

They've been a publisher for several years. It started with providing a means to publish ebooks and has grown from there. With their acquisition of IMDb several years, they seem to be into a little of everything. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you two keep trying to spoof me? Take a look at ref #74 for instance. That wasn't published by Amazon, it was published by München Heyne. Eric Corbett 16:38, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great catch, you're making this overall much easier with all of these specific items you're pointing out...! Keep up the great work. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:49, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that you need to be doing this kind of check yourself, not trying to coerce me or anyone else into doing it. Eric Corbett 16:54, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Coercion? LOL, we're having a conversation. If you feel you are being coerced, its entirely your creation... :) But I do thank you for your efforts, its been most helpful. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 02:14, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I consider your "Then stop being lazy and FIX it, obviously you can type and you've identified the issue", and "If you're not hear to help with improving the article, then why participate at all?" to be coercion, or at the very least an attempt to minimise my contributions to this review. Let me tell you now that it just won't wash, and as things stand this article will be delisted. Eric Corbett 04:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why you think I have such control over your thoughts and actions, but again it's entirely your creation. As for the article, if you think threatening the article status has any meaning or significance to me, you're woefully mistaken. Again, thank you for your efforts. You've single-handedly contributed more towards its improvement than anyone other editor recently and that is appreciated. Maybe you can focus on the site instead of your perceptions of the editors. Regards, --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 06:34, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And I don't understand why you believe your strategy of attempting to belittle or insult reviewers is likely to lead to anything other than this article's delisting. Eric Corbett 12:27, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, that's perhaps the funniest thing you've said throughout this discussion... :) And thank you for revealing your true intentions and recording it in the Page history. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:37, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Someone made a valiant effort to shoehorn the earlier book translation links into the cite book templates. Fixed now. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 03:54, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What does "|publisher=by Paul Farhi, Washington Post, January 31, 2006; Page C01" mean? So who's the publisher? Presumably not Paul Farhi?

Fixed. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 04:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Several citations are bare urls.

Eric Corbett 15:49, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All great observations and fixable, thank you again for your help in improving this article! :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]