Talk:The Monk (Doctor Who)

Perhaps I should explain why the Monk's appearance in the thirtieth anniversary special is particularly noteworthy, but it's a spoiler and in any case I don't suppose anybody here cares much. So I probably won't. --Paul A 03:20, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia contains spoilers, so please do go right ahead and mention it. I wasn't aware the Monk made any appearances after his originals, so I for one am quite curious about it. Just make sure to put this line:

{{msg:spoiler}}

before the paragraph where you do, to give readers the option of not reading it. Bryan 04:59, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Moving page

I moved the page since the Monk's the only one of the titled Time Lords without a "The" prefixing his title as the article name. It's also easier to just add the "the" instead of removing it from everyone else. --khaosworks 08:02, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

The Master

Wasn't the theory about the Monk being the Master first made popular in a manual for a DW RPG in the 80s? Does anyone know anything about this? — P Ingerson (talk) 21:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like the nonsense that the FASA RPG was spouting (like the origins of the Sontarans), but I don't have any reference materials on hand. Let me do a little Googling and see what I can come up with. --khaosworks 21:59, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Page move?

The discussion really should be here instead of at Page moves. That being said, the reason for the definitive article in front of Meddling Monk is a combination of historical useage and inertia. It can be argued that this is his full title, not merely "Meddling Monk", but at the same time, there's the consistency issue, as we have entries of "Valeyard", not "The Valeyard" and "Rani (Doctor Who)", not "The Rani" and more especially "The Doctor (Doctor Who)", so it's starting to look like a bit of a hodge podge. There's also "The Inquisitor" and "The Other (Doctor Who)". I'm still considering what's the better way to go about this, but this will have a knock-on effect on the titles of those articles as well. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:37, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that definitive articles are not to be placed at the beginning of character article (or any article, for that matter), unless it's abundantly clear that it is part of their name. I.e. a sentence referring to them would be "Hello, The Cheat." If characters like Joker (comics) or Universities can't have "the" in the titles, I'm not all that sympathetic to Meddling Monk and the other articles losing "the" from their titles. They shouldn't recieve different treatment just because they all happen to be from Doctor Who. Apostrophe 15:48, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Do you believe in it strongly enough to fix all the redirects? The Doctor (Doctor Who) has about 500. Tim! (talk) 18:36, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I only see two. Not all that hard of a task. Apostrophe 20:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

goto the article and click on "what links here", you'll see all the articles which link to it as its current name. All of them would have to change. Also check Master (Doctor Who) which you've already moved, not nearly as many, but you can see what has happened. Tim! (talk) 20:31, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted the page move until final disposition of this discussion - it's going to be a massive project to fix the redirects, so I think we should all be appraised of the consequences and be prepared to accept it before we proceed with any moves. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:40, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing the problem. If people click on a link that's a redirect, it'd direct them to the article that the redirect page is a redirect to. If people click on Aeris, they'd still be sent to Aerith Gainsbourg. The only problem is double redirects, of which there would only be two for Doctor (Doctor Who). Or this a Wikipedia style thing? --Apostrophe 04:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I also don't see the problem with the redirects, I move pages like this every once in a while and rarely have to fix more than a handful. The only time large numbers of articles need relinking is when pages split into several articles for disambiguation-related reasons. Relinking articles to bypass redirects is a cosmetic thing that I only bother to do when I'm already editing a page for other reasons. Bryan 04:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Ultimately, after consideration, my position is that I don't mind either way - just that it be consistent. That is, if we move remove the "The", then it should be the same for all, i.e. The War Chief, the Master, etc. We'll just have to fix the redirects as we find them. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 04:54, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

So, if there's no objection, I'll start moving some that I can, then. --Apostrophe 21:50, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Do try to get a head start on fixing some of the redirects as you can too, while you're at it. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:26, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 13:45, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Saxon

There has been speculation that Mr. Harold Saxon in the upcoming finale to the latest series of Doctor Who is the Monk. The Monk; the first enemy time lord the Doctor met in the original series, wanted King Harold the Saxon to win the Battle of Hastings and rewrite history so that the Saxons were victorious. It could be this "Saxon" is the name sake of that attempt, and the first enemy time lord the Doctor meets in the new series as well. 207.202.227.125 01:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

good point, although, if he is the monk then surely he would be preaching instead ofrunning the country??? --click here 14:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's being confrimed that the Master will be in the series finale, so the chances of seeing two Time Lord enemies of the Doctor seems slim, but you never know. Michael Mad 15:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Character name

What evidence is there, really, that this character's name is "The Meddling Monk"? Surely, the monk was just a disguise for the purposes of the specific story, and that his continued use of the disguise, as seen in DMP, was because the Doctor had stranded him in an era where the disguise was still relevant. Should the reference to him as "The Time Meddler" by the DWM story, "4-Dimensional Vistas", not be given greater credence as an attempt to take the name of the character from the title of the serial in which he appeared, rather than the deceptive narrative? He wasn't a monk when he was stealing all that other loot we see in his TARDIS in "The Time Meddler". He took other disguises appropriate to the various eras to aid his plunder.

Somehow, I think the article needs to go a bit further in explaining why DWM made the choice they did. I think it wouldn't be too far to suggest that "The Time Meddler" be given consideration in the first sentence of the article as an alternative name for the character, and then to explain later in the article why there's ambiguity about the name. Calling the character, "The Meddlng Monk"—no matter how well-entrenched that now is in fan circles—is a bit like saying the name of the Master is "Mr. Magister", or any one of the dozens of other disguises the Master had. Somehow, over the years, "the meddling Monk" has turned into "The Meddling Monk", and it's not really accurate. CzechOut 00:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Marooned?

On my viewing of "Escape Switch", the Monk was not marooned on the desolate planet, it was merely somewhere he'd landed before realising that his directional circuit had been removed. The Monk then complains (and I paraphrase) that now he is doomed to wander the universe like the Doctor. But that he will get his own back, one day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.44.68.223 (talk) 10:04, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

LOTS of citations required

This article contains a LOT of wild claims, fanboy speculation, and bizarre OR conclusions. What is lacks are real valid sources which back up ANY of the statements presented as fact. I have tagged many of these. These have previously been removed, but since nobody has made any effort to provide WP:RS, I have put them back in. The way the article reads now is most definitely not up to Wikipedia standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 11:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Please see WP:TAGBOMB. The top of the article has {{refimprove}} and {{Original research}}: these should be sufficient - you may raise specific points on this talk page. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

But it isn't "specific points". Going line-by-line, MOST of the article is unsourced and OR. Even the article's name itself is OR! This discussion would inevitable focus on one or two points(assuming any sort of discussion even takes place). Until the,m each and every point must be marked, for someone to either improve, source, or remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 05:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Point-by-point

1)The Meddling Monk or simply The Monk.... Says who? The episode crdits list the character as "The Monk". "The Meddling Monk" is the name of an episode, not a character.

2)The character appeared in two stories... However, an interview with Terrance Dicks(which I'm trying to find the link to) establishes that the character of The War Chief was supposed to be implied to the the regenerated character from The Time Meddler. Further, Doctor Who Magazine Issue 75(April 1983) previews the then-forthcoming The Kings' Demons with references to The Time Meddler. Of course the villain in The King's Demons turned out to be The Master. Two years later the FASA Role Playing Game stated that "The Monk" and "The War Chief" were prior incarnations of The Master. And a 1988 edition of Mastermind had a contestant with the specialist subject of Doctor Who being asked "In which serial did The Mad Monk(not 'meddling') first use the name The 'Master' "?

3)[The Monk] claimed to have left the Doctor's then unnamed home planet some 50 years after the Doctor did... he did no such thing. The Doctor remarks to Vicki and Steven that they're from the same place but I would say that I am fifty years earlier(Doctor's words). The character who the article is about NEVER mentions ANY time or age or anything, besides his stating I'm getting too old for this at one point.

4)...when the Doctor first encountered him... The first encounter in the television show. It could be reworded that way. It is made abundantly clear both in the show and in other media that this is not their first encounter.

5)...hence the name by which he became known... which one? The credits refer to him as "The Monk", Doctor Who Magazine refers to him as "The Time Meddler", Mastermind refers to him as "The Mad Monk", Dicks refers to him as "The War Chief", The FASA Game states that he is "The Master", while he simply disguised himself as "a monk". Meanwhile, Wikipedia has an article called "The Meddling Monk".

6)The two never met on-screen again....I need to find the link to the Dicks interview, and then there's the FASA Game and the Mastermind episode(it was 1988 but I'll try and find the exact date. Of note it was BEFORE any unauthorized or unofficial guides which are used by some as a Reliable Source).

7)...the Monk last being seen... (see above, and note the "Meddling" part has been dropped by whoever wrote this article)

8)Unlike the Doctor's adversaries....such as The Master... see FASA, Mastermind etc.

9)The Monk was presented as a comic figure... Because he planned to wipe out the entire Viking fleet with a nuclear warhead?

10)...who was not half as clever as he thought he was...The Doctor reduced the "Monk's" TARDIS interior to the size of a small doll's house, yet he repaired the circuit(using only 11the Century technology) and tracked the Doctor down. Later, the Doctor disabled his chameleon circuit, yet he repaired that almost immediately, something the Doctor was NEVER able to do.

11)...never seemed to realise the seriousness of what he was doing...s with ALL these points there are NO WP:RS and it is all WP:OR. My comments are also largely WP:OR (for now), but it is worth pointing out this section is supposed to show the difference between "The Meddling Monk"(or whatever he's called at this point) and The Master. In terms of not realising the seriousness of doing something...watch The Master in Logopolis.

12)...disguising how dangerous a person like The Monk(I think "Meddling" has been abandoned by now) can really be...well pure WP:OR really

13)...propagated mainly... Says who? Pure [[WP:OR}] and WP:POV. LONG before the FASA game existed it was widely held as fact. Of course my saying that is no more a WP:RS than what is stated in the article, but it is certainly no LESS a WP:RS than what is stated in the article.

14)...this theory has not been as widespread in recent years...Says who? A quick search of Google dispels that idea. Also the fact that it's referred to as a theory would make it on sound footing.

15)...that The Doctor and The Monk had not met previously...The Monk immediately recognises The Doctor, The Doctor states And what are you trying to get up to this time? Best of all, the same people who stated that they'd "not met previously"(first published in The Discontinuity Guide would later point to Divided Loyalties as "proof" that "Mortimus The Time Meddling Mad Monk" and "Doktor Magnus Felix Kriegslieter The War Chief" aren't the same person.

If this can all be boiled down to simple problems...it is the COMPLETE LACK OF WP:RS. It is the fact that the article is a bunch of stitched-together myths that have been swirling amongst people who clearly haven't even watched the episodes properly. People reading something in a fanzine, or putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, and then writing a whole article using these "facts"! There are no RS, and it's all WP:OR, and a pretty poor job of OR as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 07:11, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

What is the proper procedure for contesting citations?

Someone has added 2 citation, both of which are links to other Wikipedia articles. Namely the "claimed to have left Gallifrey 50 years after the Doctor" and the "last seen on a desolate icy planet". Since when it is considered WP:RS to link to another Wikipedia article, which also doesn't have the WP:RS? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 17:06, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

The serials proper (primary source) were cited (summarising the plot). The links to Wikipedia articles are helpful links included in the cite serial template. DonQuixote (talk) 17:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

But surely that is WP:OR? Those articles don't have the WP:RS either. Thus you are using one unsourced Wikipedia article as the source for another unsourced Wikipedia article. You would need the plot summary of a reliable published book, not another Wikipedia article that is similarly lacking anything to back up much of its content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.62 (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

As was pointed out above, it was the Doctor who hypothesised that the Monk left Gallifrey 50 years after the Doctor did. That's a plot summary. That just requires the primary source. All the other stuff which are OR still have their citation needed tags. DonQuixote (talk) 17:21, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

No WP:RS for several claims

The "Other appearances" section is just people giving their own interpretation of stories, some of which were inaccurate, and nearly all of which were completely unsourced. Of course, the only one with any source was the FASA Game. Also, having 'Mortimus' appear somewhere is unrelated here. Unless it states it is the same character as this article, it's WP:OR. The whole Divided Loyalties thing, the claims of what unpublished chapters would have said and what was hinted at in other books, the POV nonsense, and all unsourced. As such, a lot(though far from all) of it has been removed. If anyone wants to reinstate any of that, it will need to be properly WP:V. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.178.141 (talk) 12:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The additional information I included is NOT based on interpretation, and it should be included. It is part of the introduction as information for the gameplayers and the gamesmaster, it casts doubt on the legitimacy of any information in the book and has to be included if the source is to be considered valid for inclusion. If the edit war continues, any information from the FASA game should be deleted, as I supplied the information and have access to the source material. 82.26.182.43 (talk) 14:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Use template:cite book. DonQuixote (talk) 14:43, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The citation exists already, the only thing he forgot to delete 82.26.182.43 (talk) 15:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

1)What does it say in the book? Exactly? Please quote it here. Just so we can be sure it's not OR.

2)DonQuixote is fixated with Divided Loyalties. Yet it never mentions anything about a character called 'The Monk' least of all one who has a biography that is anything listed in this article. And it's totally unsourced either way.

3)That's the big thing, sources. This whole article reads like some small child's bizarre interpretation of something they've heard third- or fourth- hand. The one thing it sorely lacks is any sort of RS. ANd most of the so-called RS here, are sources where what is claimed to be verified is not actually listed in the source that is cited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.178.141 (talk) 15:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Er...what? I'm sorry, but that's just another one of your strawmen. I couldn't care less about Divided Loyalties...in fact, I have never read it. What I do care about is proper citation of reliable sources.

And yes, this article needs a major rewrite. Feel free to do so. And to make sure that this article is well written, please be sure to cite all your sources and make sure that they're considered reliable. DonQuixote (talk) 15:18, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Page 4/Introduction

CIA FILE EXTRACTS- A short module of the player's information is included in this supplement. Taking the form of a CIA briefing on the Master, the CIA file extracts book is neither complete nor totally accurate. It sometimes reflects the opinions, conjectures, and outright fabrications injected by its Time Lord authors, rather than the absolute truth needed by the gamemaster

Page 4/Introduction

Gamemasters are, of course, free to introduce alternative explanations and interpretations of the material offered here. For example, if a gamemaster disagrees with the concept of identifying the Master with the meddling Monk who faced the first Doctor, or if he feels there is a better explanation of the Master's escape from the volcanic fire on Sarn, such changes should be freely implmented 82.26.182.43 (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I have previously included the relevant Monk/Master information from the CIA File extracts in the 'Other appearances' section.82.26.182.43 (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, does the fact that the book is effectively saying that anything or everything written within, concerning the Monk/Master's history, is potentially bovine feces, mean that it isn't a reliable enough source for Wikipedia anyway? 82.26.182.43 (talk) 15:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)