Talk:Libyan civil war (2014–2020)

Merge?

Would it be best to leave the Tripoli & Benghazi articles seperate, or should we merge them into this article? MrPenguin20 (talk) 11:49, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

• They can be regarded as individual battles/offensives within the wider conflict, but I do think this article needs to be expanded with these items for now, then we can consider splitting in case there are more developments and in case there will be a future WP:SIZE issue. This one was created as a main umbrella article for the current situation, so maybe it is too early to have sub-articles. Thoughts? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Quite possibly. When I initially created the two articles the two incidents seemed more region specific. However as this has grown it has taken on more of a national tone. The Dignity Operation now seems not just to refer to Benghazi alone, but to Libya as a whole. So e.g. when the head of the Libyan Navy announced his support for Haftar in Tripoli, that announcement was clearly important, although didn't fit neatly into either of the articles. I think we're in agreement - this article should be the primary focus, and then more region specific items can be brought up in the smaller articles. MrPenguin20 (talk) 14:09, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

• The merging is  Done, but there are some dead links from Libya Herald that should be replaced, the sooner the better. Meanwhile, I will work on properly citing the sources. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 15:17, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
• I have rechecked the links and it appears it was just a temporary site crash. Apologies. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 15:33, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
• Everything looks almost fine now. In a few hours I might do some general checks to see if any copyediting procedure will be required. Thank you for the impressive work on the Benghazi and Tripoli articles. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 16:04, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Unneutral naming

the name of the article is unneutral,and is biased towards one side of the colfict,a neutral naming must be found for this article,becuase this is an armed coflcit between a general trying to seize power whom is even outside of the country,and between islamist group ansar al sharia,so the conflict is narrow.Alhanuty (talk) 15:36, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The word is used by numerous reliable sources ([1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]) and note that most of them equally use 'revolt' (+ [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] and a lot more), while some use 'rebellion' [16] [17] and even an anti-Haftar commander called the offensive "a rebellion against revolutionaries, the state and the legitimate revolt". Conflict is a very broad term and can reflect the whole post-civil war violence. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:11, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Alhanuty, I've moved the title to Operation Dignity (the codename of Haftar's offensive), which is a common name among the sources. I agree that it is too early to use loaded terms like 'uprising' or 'revolt' right now, since the events are still developing. There is also 'offensive' but I didn't want to use it because it would require more precision that can make the title too long. I hope this satisfies. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 12:28, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Civil war

I am not sure how many hundred dead are needed to call the conflict a war, but I think this number has now been reached? Contributorzero (talk) 19:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

There are indeed sources calling it a civil war, but we go by the common name among sources, not by the number of casualties. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:04, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I see your point for the overall title, but if some sources are using the name civil war, shouldn't the lead say something like "The 2014 Libyan conflict, also known as the Libyan Civil War, is an armed conflict taking place in Libya that began on 16 May 2014 after forces loyal...etc". (I also suggest that the page currently titled "Libyan Civil War" would be better titled "Libyan Revolution" if we use the COMMONNAME principle.) Contributorzero (talk) 07:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

The renaming of civil war to revolution was discussed several times on the article's talk page (see this for example). I have created a number of redirects to this article with civil war and I think it is preferable to wait before we decide on using the term in this article. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 21:45, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your message. I did not quite follow your line of thought. Could you clarify why you think we should not use the term "civil war" anywhere in this article? Contributorzero (talk) 18:10, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

You are suggesting that we add Libyan Civil War as another name to the conflict, but we already have an article by that name. That leaves us with something like Second Libyan Civil War, or perhaps 2014 Libyan civil war. However, we need sources for these, and I fail to see any. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 18:35, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

There are multiple news sources (The Mirror, The Guardian, Belfast Telegraph, Miami Herald, Middle East Eye, etc) that identifies the conflict as a civil war. On the other hand there are also multiple news sources that still uses phrases like "on the brink of civil war", "spiraling into civil war", "descending into full scale civil war", etc. The name 2014 Libyan civil war would reflect the situation in Libya right now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.185.55.87 (talk) 20:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I dont think the term "Civil War" can be avoided on the basis that it is inconvenient for wikipedia editors, because they already have an article by that name. Contributorzero (talk) 20:19, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The whole unwillingness to name it a "Civil War" reminds be about Clinton administrations unwillingness to call the Rwanda Genocide for what it was, a genocide, and instead preferred to call it "acts of genocide". The conflict in Libya is a civil war.

Islamist

The use of the word "Islamist" in this article is simply misguiding and grossly oversimplifies the reality. It is simply a convenient word for journalists who want a narrative for the conflict. I am aware we have to come up with some way of explaining what is happening on the ground, but simply saying "Islamist-dominated" GNC or "Islamist forces" does not really add any insight.--Aa2-2004 (talk) 11:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll agree with this. The conflict is more driven by a mixture of ideological, regional, and group interests, with the groups on each side often fighting for a variety of reasons. So Haftar claims he's fighting Islamist forces, whilst the other side (bar the Benghazi Council) tends to justify itself not by claiming it's fighting for Islam, but that it's fighting for the original Revolutionary goals, whilst denouncing Haftar et all as counter-revolutionaries. It's tricky. MrPenguin20 (talk) 00:54, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I would also agree if the term is not widely used by RS. However, the anti-Haftar militias in Benghazi are commonly described as Islamists by the sources and it also helps the reader make a distinction between both warring sides there. No comment on Operation Libya Dawn groups mostly fighting in Tripoli. I agree that those are not necessarily called Islamists so I support unlabeling them. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah the Benghazi groups are definitely Islamist - I was referring to the Libya Dawn groups. MrPenguin20 (talk) 21:54, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Individual editors agreeing or not that the word "Islamist" is meaningful is not really a debate for this particular page. Enough people in the world find it meaningful for reliable sources to use it. As far as Operation Dawn is concerned, reliable sources say the attackers are Islamist, as is obvious really. Today, for example: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/tripoli-airport-2014823183122249347.html . Contributorzero (talk) 22:04, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I Have some chat with peoples in Tripoli that Ops Dawn Group Fighters was Indeed Has 'Islamist' Tendency... some of them even have Sympathy to ISIS in Syria... and have aim to Impose Strict Sharia in Tripoli, so its not wrong at all if they considered IslamistAhendra (talk) 09:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Role of Obaidi

Whilst I understand why Obaidi was originally included in the infobox (as he headed the "Official" LNA as opposed to Haftar's LNA), I don't think he really should be there anymore. The fact that he's reporting to the House of Representatives (which is generally pro-Haftar) suggests he's not active in the anti-Haftar fighting, as if he was then A - He'd likely already have been removed from his position by the HoR, and B - It's likely there would have been slightly more controversy over him suddenley turning up in the Haftar stronghold of Tobruk. Instead of being a player, Obaidi seems to be generally being ignored by both sides (e.g. ignoring his calls for a ceasefire). MrPenguin20 (talk) 00:48, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

You make good points. What is your source that he is in Tobruk? Contributorzero (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

This article detailed his submissions to the HoR in Tobruk on the 10th August. Then in turn this article spoke about how a memo written by Obaidi ordering all sides to commit to a ceasefire was ignored. Unfortunately you now have to pay to see most of the article, although for the first one you can still see, for free, that he appeared before the HoR in Tobruk on 10 August. Most of the information in the articles is now on the wiki page though in the August section. MrPenguin20 (talk) 22:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes I can see enough of the first one to agree with you. He might not be pro-Haftar, but it seems unreasonable that he could be there and be fighting against Haftar. Contributorzero (talk) 22:31, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Operation Dawn name

Operation Dawn or Operation Libya Dawn?? Contributorzero (talk) 08:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Operation Libya Dawn (عملية فجر ليبيا) is the full name, but it seems to be referred to as just Operation Dawn in a lot of coverage. MrPenguin20 (talk) 01:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Tripoli airport

Does anyone else think it is officially time to split some content from this article into Battle of Tripoli Airport? It is being widely covered in the news and I believe it is notable enough for a stand-alone article. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 00:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea. Contributorzero (talk) 19:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. MrPenguin20 (talk) 00:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Propose page move to Libyan Civil War of 2014

Since sources seem to now agree in using the term "Civil War", I propose a page move to Libyan Civil War of 2014. Contributorzero (talk) 19:47, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

My observation is that the majority of news sources still talks about the conflict being on the edge of becoming a civil war. It's definitely a civil war, but news media are still hesitant to call it just that.

Your observation is interesting. Are opposing or supporting a move? Or neither? Contributorzero (talk) 15:29, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Libyan National Army split

If Abdulsalam al-Obaidi is cooperating with the new government in Tobruk, who are the pro-GNC faction of the LNA? Have army men like al-Obaidi, who were not obvious in declaring support for Haftar, been mixed up with forces of Libya Shield fighters (who were also official state forces)? Is there clear evidence of any actual LNA forces fighting against Haftar? Contributorzero (talk) 21:14, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I've seen any evidence of LNA forces fighting against the government. My understanding is that in May the Army split between an "Official" section (loyal to the official government, which was then the GNC), and a pro-Haftar faction. Then in turn the official faction became loyal to the HoR when that assumed power. I seem to remember seeing a video of some Libyan Army staff pledging loyalty to the GNC & denouncing the HoR last week, although nothing seems to have really come of it. MrPenguin20 (talk) 01:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Another thing that is unclear! Do you think it would it be best to take the LNA out of the Islamist side of the info box or leave them in there? Contributorzero (talk) 19:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

It would be best to take the LNA out of the Islamist side. News media refers to Haftar's forces when mentioning LNA. The Islamist militias are predominantly referred to as Dawn of Libya. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.104.236 (talk) 00:32, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Map

Is there a map of the military situation in Libya similar to the maps of the Syrian Civil War and the Northern Iraq Offensive?

Don't think so. I'll get to work on one. Given how the fighting is somewhat restricted to Tripoli & Benghazi I'm thinking that two separate maps focusing on each city might be the best option. MrPenguin20 (talk) 00:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be very difficult to produce any maps with meaningful accuracy. I think most towns are not overtly supporting one side or the other. A map of the situation in Tripoli or Benghazi would be excellent if we can get detailed up to date information of which neighbourhood is controlled by who- but can we get that without being a government? I think it would be really good to get a map of the situation, but can it be done? Contributorzero (talk) 19:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the hardest part is showing control, as the situation seems to be highly fluid without clear cut front lines (in Tripoli at least). As such I think the best option would be a map showing important locations, e.g. bases/encampments of various factions/government ministries etc. This in turn can serve as a guide to augment the readers understanding of exactly what's going on, as without any kind of visual identifier often it's difficult to understand the meaning of saying that there's been clashes in X. It's probably easiest in the case of Benghazi where a map can highlight the various bases formerly used by Saiqa - and which how now been taken by the Benghazi Revolutionary Shura Council - given that Benghazi as a whole seems to be under the control of the Islamists. MrPenguin20 (talk) 01:02, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I thought Benghazi seemed under their control, but articles like this keep appearing. The same applies to fighting on the outskirts of Tripoli. Your point about "a guide to augment the readers understanding of exactly what's going on, as without any kind of visual identifier often it's difficult to understand the meaning of saying that there's been clashes in X" is a very good point. Readers without particular knowledge of Libya may be baffled by unfamiliar place names. Maybe readers would be helped by something highlighting Benghazi, Tripoli, Tobruk, Zintan, Misrata, Warshefana and Camp 27. I think the important thing is that the map doesn't try to be definitive about control on the ground, because then it will probably be wrong. Contributorzero (talk) 15:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah exactly. Unlike say the Syrian Civil War, or the previous Libyan Civil War, there are currently no clear cut frontlines. Instead militias tend to control certain places, and have certain areas of control. The recently added map on the page is good for highlighting important locations, but yeah it's not quite right - e.g. Tripoli isn't under the full control of Operation Dawn. MrPenguin20 (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I am not at all happy with the recently added map from an IP address. I think the map overstates Islamist control in both Tripoli and Benghazi, and I don't currently know any sources that give Abdajiya to Ansar Alsharia. Zawiya and Khoms are also suspect. Until I have seen references it looks like biased in favour of the Islamists. I'll provisionally delete it. Contributorzero (talk) 21:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I added the map but I forgot to log in. I did not explain it since it isn't easy for me to write in English ;D I took the information from the article itself, so if you think it looks biased it´s not because I am "in favour of the Islamists" but because the article is wrong.

• Tripoli: The following day, Operation Dawn forces announced that they have consolidated the whole city and adjacent towns after driving out rival Zintan militias 90 kilometers south of the capital

• Ajdabiya: later launched nighttime air strikes on what they claimed to be an Ansar al-Sharia base in Ajdabiya, which had recently been taken by Ansar al-Sharia.

• Benghazi: Forces loyal to General Haftar appeared to have had the territory under its control in the region reduced to Benina International Airport ; On August 17, the Al-Saiqa special forces abandoned their last stronghold in the city, Benina Airport

I took the information about Khoms and Zawiya from here.--Wiki erudito (talk) 09:52, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The article isn't wrong, you are not using the information in it properly.

• Tripoli: The following day, Operation Dawn forces announced that they have consolidated etc. The article headline is that they claim control, not a confirmation of that. I know of no reliable source that confirms the Islamist claim.

• Ajdabiya: later launched nighttime air strikes on what they claimed to be an Ansar al-Sharia base in Ajdabiya, which had recently been taken by Ansar al-Sharia. was from Aug 1 but 30 aug Demonstrators in Ajdabiya support HoR

• Benghazi: On August 17, the Al-Saiqa special forces abandoned their last stronghold in the city, Benina Airport

Not having a "stronghold" does not mean they have given up or lost control of the city or that they are gone forever, it is a fluid conflict

25th Aug: Fresh clashes Saturday in Benghazi http://www.webcitation.org/6S6QPzb6U and Benghazi clashes rage on

30 Aug Demonstrations inside Benghazi support HoR

1st Sept:Fighting in south east Benghazi

• The source for Khoms and Zawiya, http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/security/2014/08/libya-tripoli-control-hifter-tribal-forces.html, is not reliable. For example, it claims Misrata maintains 290 battalions, suggesting well over 100,000 fighters for a district of half a million people.

Overall I think the map was misleading. Contributorzero (talk) 17:10, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

For the Tripoli situation, it does look like a lot of sources say Islamists are in control of the city, so it would probably be reasonable for a map, but there are also articles like this (Aug 31) about fighting in the west of Tripoli and this (1st Sept) which says Zintanis are active in the south western part of Tripoli. Contributorzero (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• Benghazi: "its control in the region reduced to Benina International Airport". OK, I added the airports to the map and keep Benghazi in Ansar al-Sharia held territory, like this quote says. And the article isnt´t wrong, right?

• Ajdabiya: Demonstrators aren´t fighters, it's a military map. We know that there is Ansar al-Sharia inside [18] but in contrast we have no evidence of Operation Dignity men inside and no reports of fighting, so putting it as contested would be a presumption.

• Tripoli: that article reports about clashes in the west of Tripoli, but then says "the coastal road linking Tripoli and Libya's western town of Zawiya", and speaks of suburbs in reference to the clases, in opposition to the "situation in the capital", so I think it´s not talking about Tripoli itself. This article of Libya Herald (more reliable) reports about the same clashes without even citing the capital. [19]

--Wiki erudito (talk) 21:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Self-proclaimed GNC

I invite editors of the 2014 Libyan conflict page to have a look at the related discussion below and leave any comments they want
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Self-proclaimed_General_National_Congress
Contributorzero (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Libya Dawn fractures

http://www.libyaherald.com/2014/08/31/libya-dawn-fractures-and-supports-the-house-of-representatives/#axzz3CB5i1jrD

Can anyone see enough of this article from 31 August to make the appropriate comments? It looks like important news. I haven't found similar articles in other sources, has anyone else? Contributorzero (talk) 17:18, 2 September 2014 (UTC)