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Medical Textbook with Chapter on Morgellons

The Morgellons article should be updated based upon chapter 26 of the Medical Textbook "Practical PsychoDermtology" . The chapter on Page 220 off the textbook provides a balanced overview of the Morgellons Debate in a proportionally balance way. It's time the Wikipedia Morgellons article is updated based upon medical text. Both viewpoints, delusional infestation and Lyme disease are discussed in an clear and concise context. Controversial topics such as Morgellons must follow the medical text in this chapter, <http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-111856068X,subjectCd-MDN0.html> Goldrushing (talk) 06:40, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a copy of the chapter? It is a brand new book it seems. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:25, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Google books to the rescue! See here. It's a 4 page chapter and it seems to include citations to unreliable sources like the CHEF... Sailsbystars (talk) 13:50, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

......textbook is authored by accomplished reputable specialists in the fields of dermatology and psychiatry and editors are reputable as well. Are you thinking that university dermatologists and psychiatrists do not understand Morgellons? There is no question. A medical textbook chapter is the best source available. 66.17.246.2 (talk) 14:27, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone have a proposed edit based on this book? If so, please provide the wording you'd like to see included and we can work on it. I don't see any new information in this book. The chapter repeatedly documents the proponents' POV, without advocating it as fact, and we already do that. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:55, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It does seem to rehash the sources that are already outlined on this page, reiterating that the consensus suggests that Morgellons is not an accepted medical term, and is "a form of delusional infestation or somatic symptom disorder". Not to take anything away from the authors and editors of the book and chapter, this source is not peer-reviewed. There are already reviews of studies that are peer-reviewed and cited appropriately already on this page.137.111.13.200 (talk) 03:05, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why the article couldn't be reworded to indicate that there is disagreement and a lack of consensus in the medical community and in the scientific literature as to whether Morgellons is 'real' or not and that 'further research is needed' - as that is a description of the reality. The Wikipedia page claims it's definitely a delusion when there is no proof of this one way or the other. Just point out it's something that needs further research. 105.237.110.167 (talk) 01:13, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's what medical research says when there are no results. That would violate WP:UNDUE and also create a false balance, leaving the impression on readers that there was a significant controversy within medicine, when it is actually an extremely minor and VERY small disagreement in a corner which is pretty much settled. We don't give a fringe minority more credence than they deserve. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:48, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But if there are "no results" then you CAN'T make the strong claim that it's a "delusion" - because there are no results proving this! It's not settled at all - the number of scientific articles is a small handful at best - more research is needed. When there are "no results" about something then the only correct answer is "it's not known" - not to pretend to know something that you can't possibly know due to the lack of research. Research IS the method by which such answers are determined. And the research isn't there yet - it's too new. 105.237.110.167 (talk) 13:15, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Making strong claims with no proper citation violates everything Wikipedia stands for - never mind 'false balance'. The strong claim that "Morgellons ... is a condition whose sufferers have the delusional belief" lacks proper citation. Either it needs a proper citation, or the claim needs to be made less strong - one of the two. "Most doctors think" is not a citation, because doctors don't know everything and they aren't scientific researchers --- that is the entire reason we still do scientific research at all, because we don't yet know everything (if we did, we could just shut down all science labs and researchers today) --- filling in the gaps when we 'don't really know' definitely does not conform to Wikipedia's goals, nor does it conform to any reasonable consideration of the ideal of documenting current knowledge. (And no, one recent scientific article alone isn't enough to settle a matter that is still an active area of research - there are also scientific articles that show a contradictory viewpoint - so the matter remains unresolved pending further research.) David Joffe (talk) 13:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That "strong claim" from the article does have a proper citation. Note that the quote is from the lead, and sums up properly sourced content in the body of the article. That citation is one of many which could have been chosen to back up the statement. We aren't making statements on our own here, we are using what reliable sources say. So, having cleared up that "misstatement"...can you suggest a specific improvement based on WP:MEDRS? That's the purpose of this page based on the rules for how to use it. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the cited work of Freudenman and Lepping, where does it state 'what most doctors think'. Perhaps I am missing something but I don't see where the reliable source polled doctors or patients for matter to determine what the majority thinks. This paper aims at familiarizing readers with delusional infestation rather than polling doctors to statistically determine the majority's thoughts. In creating a new lead I suggest steering away from what most doctors believe. What patients "believe" to be the cause of their malady too is irrelevant. Since when is the patient supposed to have the correct diagnosis and the causative agent? If patients were reliable at determining causative agents and making their own diagnoses, doctors would become extinct. I would like to see the lead changed to represent what scientific and medical evidence shows rather than what anyone thinks, which according to the medical textbook chapter, is still largely undetermined and up for debate. Proposing new lead "In the past 10 years, there have been an increased number of publications debating the presence of a new medical condition referred to as Morgellons Disease". The textbook chapter, according to [WP:MEDRS] is the single most reliable source available on the topic. Length of chapteris irrelevant. The textbook, a highly credible source, is written and edited by highly esteemed qualified experts in the field. A textbook is peer reviewed and highly scrutinized by a group of editors perhaps more rigorously than a peer reviewed paper. The title of the medical textbook chapter is Morgellons 'Debate'. When a medical textbook describes Morgellons clearly as a debated topic then why would a Wikipedia article ignore that the debate exists? That debate should be given due weight within the contents of the article especially in the light of the fact that both viewpoints of said debate are well described in peer reviewed medical literature. The role of Wiki editors is not to critique a textbook chapter for it's content or it's length. That work has already been done prior to textbook publication by experts in the field who are qualified to make such judgements. The goal here at Wikipedia is to create an article which accurately describes the textbook picture of Morgellons. Including the fact that the topic is medically and scientifically debated is indicated is appropriate and necessary. Goldrushing (talk) 08:47, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That wording change is not supported by the proposed source, which says that the physician community has been hesitant to even use the term "Morgellons", and that most physicians consider it a form of delusional parasitosis. The "debate" is between the patients who believe they have the disease and the medical community which does not believe the condition exists; it is not really a debate within the medical community. As an aside, nowhere in WP:MEDRS does it declare this textbook "the single most reliable source available on the topic"; that is an absurd overstatement. We have multiple review articles, including Freudemnman's, which go into much more detail about the topic, and is probably more reliable. Having read the source, I see no new information there that is not already covered in the article. Yobol (talk) 13:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that Freudenmann and Lepping are authors of the Delusional parasitosis chapters of this same medical textbook. The Morgellons Debate was given a chapter of it's own in the same book...a chapter apart from the DOP, DI chapters. If these conditions were considered by most of these experts to be synonymous with Morgellons then why wouldn't Morgellons be covered in the DOP chapter rather than a chapter of it's own? Goldrushing (talk) 20:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, based on other publications by the textbook/chapter authors, "debate" could also refer to the question of which mental disorder as associated with self-diagnosed "Morgellons". Magid and Reichenberg – the two editors who wrote the Morgellons chapter – have been advocates for the view that many (perhaps most) of these patients are actually better described as having a somatoform disorder instead of delusional parasitosis (see, e.g. PMID 23058734).
And the proposed phrasing "In the past 10 years..." is misleading puffery. Since Mary Leitao only publicized the term in 2002 – 12 years ago – of course there's more material in the last ten years than there was in any other decade; it went from 'zero' to 'marginally more than zero'. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:53, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than assume that Reichenburg and Magid had any viewpoints other than what is written in the textbook chapter, let's take a look at recent Reichenberg and Magid's conclusions here in more recent articles <https://www.dermquest.com/expert-opinions/clinical-updates/2013/morgellons-disease/> where same authors Reichenburg and Magid have concluded that:
"Many physicians have come down strongly in favor of a psychiatric etiology. Basic science research continues to produce data that may imply an infectious etiology". Let's be clear that Reichenberg and Magid find the use of the term "Morgellons" controversial while also clarifying that the jury is still out on possible infectious etiology. Goldrushing (talk) 20:40, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please see [1] That is not a reliable source. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:52, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean here Dbrodbeck because I wasn't suggesting this as a source for the article. It does provide insight on the meaning of the textbook chapter and reading recent writings by the two (this one is dated August 2013) better than guessing what Reichenberg and Magid meant. So this is in reply to Tenofalltrades who suggested that Reichenberg and Magid were advocates for the view of describing the majority of patients as having a somatoform disorder. Please see TenOfAllTrades post above to better understand the context for providing the recent viewpoint of Reichenberg and Magid.Goldrushing (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Science and medicine are constantly evolving and it is more relevant to discuss what Reichenberg and Magid 'are' advocates for rather than what they 'have been' advocates for. I hope this better explains the point I was making.Goldrushing (talk) 22:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) That's not an unreasonable perspective. From that standpoint, it's worthwhile that Reichenberg and Magid report (both in their peer-reviewed publications and in the Dermquest article) successfully treating 'Morgellons' patients with antipsychotics and, more recently, antidepressants. If you want to hold out Reichenberg and Magid as your experts on the topic, you can't just ignore the (successful) therapeutic approach that they actually use in the clinic while you grasp at passing statements. But I shouldn't get sucked (further) into a forum chat with you. I'm not going to waste any more time in this thread unless there are serious suggestions for specific article edits. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:13, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I offer two notes in passing. First, there is a difference between "both viewpoints are...discussed" and "both viewpoints are lent equal weight by the authors, and are supported by citations of equal quality in the text". Merely noting that fringe perspectives exist on topic (and pointing to information about them) is something that is useful to clinicians: the likely audience of this book. That is, it's useful as a dermatologist or psychiatrist to know what beliefs patients may have about their skin, even if those beliefs are totally unsupported by credible research.
Second, it might help if GoldRushing, David Joffe, or others could propose specific changes to the Wikipedia article. (Note that we should be very cautious about making major article changes based on snippets from a single short book chapter.) Ultimately, that is what this talk page is supposed to be used for. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:51, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Very well put. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
According to [WP:IRS] secondary sources such as meta analyses, textbooks and scholarly review articles are preferred when available as sources. Textbook entries, regardless of length of chapter, are reliable sources. Since the textbook chapter focuses on the debate, even titles the chapter Morgellons Debate, then the debate is significant and certainly deserves mention if this article is to reflect guidelines of [WP:IRS] Goldrushing (talk) 09:06, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Goldrushing, hope you don't mind, I moved your comment. Anyway, please read what Yobol has written above, it is a pretty good summary. Dbrodbeck (talk) 14:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I have read and disagree with what Yobol has written because Freudenmann and Lepping are co authors of this medical textbook and have authored additional themselves. When multiple co-authors are involved it is imperative prior to publication that all authors have reviewed the manuscript. Goldrushing (talk) 20:51, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again, we need a specific suggestion for a change, starting with the body, not the lead. Changes to the lead only occur after changes to the body, and only if the change is significant. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:01, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Without proposed edits this discussion really isn't going anywhere. The book in question is not peer-reviewed, and doesn't add anything new to the page. It mostly reiterates what is already discussed, and if Chapter 26 of this book is seen as some sort of tangent then why does Chapter 14 (Delusional Infestation) introduce Morgellons as a sub-type of delusional infestation, referring the reader to Chapter 26 thusly: "In recent years some patients have started to advocate a new disease entity they call Morgellons disease. The possibility of an undiscovered pathogen, in this case fibres, was attractive to many sufferers and with the internet, the idea spread quickly. A recent study by the United States Center for Disease Control and Prevention, funded after pressure from self-declared Morgellon's sufferers, showed no evidence of real infestation or infection. See Chapter 26 for a more extensive discussion of this phenomenon and the literature surrounding it."137.111.13.200 (talk) 07:02, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This Article is Pathetic

The fact that the word "Lyme" first and only appears in one of the citations at the bottom of the page is laughable. Is Wikipedia a place for information or propaganda? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.168.207.237 (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a suggestion? Remember, this is not a forum. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:09, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lead Section

Not sure how we can say it's a "delusional belief" when the CDC says

"But the study shouldn’t be interpreted to conclude that the problem is all in sufferers' heads" (ref.9)

The CDC refers to it as an "unexplained dermopathy". If they don't say it's 100% delusional, how can we describe it as such in the lead? The reference for the first sentence isn't the actual CDC report. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkspartan1 (talk • contribs) 23:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The lead doesn't say that the problem is all in sufferers' heads or that it's "100% delusional;" it says they hold the delusional belief that their symptoms are caused by infestations of fibres or parasites, which is consistent with the cited source. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 01:30, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The source for the first sentence is from Clinical Microbiology Reviews, so I'm a little confused about what the problem is. The quote you're referring to, from a single doctor in a popular-press article, is only used to emphasize that hasty conclusions shouldn't be made. The CDC is a good source, but I'm not sure why we would ignore the numerous other sources that classify it as delusional parasitosis, cited thoughout the article, to give special emphasis that single point. Grayfell (talk) 01:33, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We should not ignore multiple sources, but while there is no conclusion drawn by such as the behemoth CDC then we should not lead out with a conclusion that this condition is delusional. Should the case be that it ISNT a delusion, it would not be the first time that there was overwhelming resistance in the sciences to accept an idea that seemed out of sorts with consensus. As I recall the concept of washing before operating was regarded as time wasting quackery by multiple credible sources when it was first proposed.-S.Rothstein — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BCEC:1800:DC7:3CE5:F457:E5D (talk) 04:18, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Dkspartan1, you need to log in, every single time. You have been warned before about this. Socking is not allowed.
We follow what RS sources say. We don't use a crystal ball. If RS document a change in the medical consensus, then we'll change the article. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:27, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, Actually I don't need to log in, as the hover over says "encouraged but not mandatory". No actually I have not been warned about this before. What kind of game are you trying to play? Or is it some sort of poison-the-well approach? Rhetorical questions as I neither care no does it apply to the matter at hand. Now then: Of course you don't use a crystal ball because that would make you a moron. Keep up with the concept of the conversation if able, if not, refrain from comment- thank you in advance. I was merely suggesting that since the center for disease control has not made a conclusion, then neither should the wiki. At the very least not lead with one. -S.Rothstein
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