Talk:Battle of Karbala

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 10, 2004, October 10, 2011, and October 10, 2013.

Relevant discussion at

→ RSN: www.al-islam.org
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→ Talk:Battle of Karbala: www.al-islam.org is not a reliable source
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AD or CE

This article started using the AD notation from the version of 18:36, 31 December 2006 The conversion of AD notation to CE notation on 8 January 2016 was mistaken.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough - CE/AD is the same to me, but the article used both which can be confusing. AstroLynx (talk) 09:59, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Added the Sermons and separate

I want to add Sermons of Lady Zaynab and Ali ibn Hossein aftermath of battle to this articleHananeh.M.h (talk) 13:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is a large section entitled Sermons during the journey from Karbala to Damascus about various speeches various people are said to have made during the period after the government forces defeated the rebels, and the caliph showing great kindness to the prisoners and releasing them. In my opinion, the section is over-long, and written from the POV of the rebels. I think it should be condensed to a few lines, and rewritten using other sources such as Tabari, either to show a neutral POV, or to show both the government and the rebel POVs.

Alternatively, we could just delete the section altogether. What do other people think we should do?-- Toddy1 (talk) 12:32, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Toddy1: I have written this section summarized. These speeches are whit sources, historical and quotes. Hananeh.M.h (talk) 12:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply on your talk page, in which you said that you had made the accounts of the various speeches more brief as a result of another editor reverting your edits on 10 January.

Why do you think the article needs as much detail as you have given?

Do you have access to The History of al-Tabari Volume 19? This gives a less-biased version of events, and says how the government forces behaved - ibn Marjana (the governor of Kufa and Basra) was harsh and the caliph was kind and merciful.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Toddy1, Can you say using which reference did you call them rebels? Tabari? Mhhossein (talk) 15:48, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Hananeh.M.h, you might use this draft most of which is written based on wp:rs. Mhhossein (talk) 15:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They were rebelling against the government. Calling them rebels is a neutral POV way of describing them.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:55, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have a concern that too much quoting of primary sources is being done in the article, an issue that predates Hananeh.M.h's recent edits. Moreover, these quotes are almost exclusively from one side of the battle and lend undue weight to that side's opinions. A further concern is the article also has several unsourced statements that are pro-Hussein and/or anti-Yazid. That doesn't mean they are wrong, but so long as they are unsourced, the article does not follow Wikipedia guidelines on NPOV. If sources are provided, the statemants still may need to be trimmed back to avoid giving undue weight. Edward321 (talk) 17:49, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mhhossein: I used sources of that draft for Sermons of Zaynab and Ali ibn Hossein in Yazid's CourtHananeh.M.h (talk) 06:45, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Toddy1: These speeches are part of Battle of Karbala and pointing to these speeches is necessary! in many sources are pointed to these sermons. Also speakers of those are very notable persons. Hananeh.M.h (talk) 07:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in agreement with Edward321. We need to avoid using primary sources as the main sources if the article while we pay attention to the neutrality of the article. Can you suggest any sources to balance the article? Mhhossein (talk) 12:33, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

I have added a bit about the al-Muqarram's book Maqtal al-Husayn, Martyrdom Epic of Imam al-Husayn in the Bibliography section. This is a 20th Century book, not a primary source. See Islamic Historiography, by Chase F. Robinson, p35. I think something has to be mentioned there, because some readers might imagine this to be an ancient book, and it is not.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am no sure what to make of Kitab Maqtal al-Husayn, by Abu Mikhnaf, as published by the Shia Ithna'ashari Community of Middlesex (who also do Yoga classes on Tuesdays). Abu Mikhnaf’s 8th Century book does not exist any more. The pages 8-9 of the introduction to the book points out that "There is a popular work that is widely circulated in Qum, Najaf and Lebanon under the title Maqtal al-Husayn and attributed to Abu Mikhnaf. This work is most certainly a forgery and should not be trusted..." The book published by the Shia Ithna'ashari Community of Middlesex relies on reports by Hisham ibn al-Kalbi (who died 820 AD/204 AH) to reconstruct Abu Mikhnaf’s original work. The reconstruction/translation was by Wa bi-l-laahi-t-tawfiq in 1999 AD.-- Toddy1 (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]