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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by WeldNeck (talk | contribs) at 02:54, 11 August 2015. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Planned Parenthood 2015 undercover videos controversy

Planned Parenthood 2015 undercover videos controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Textbook WP:POVFORK from Planned Parenthood, where there's an ongoing, very lively, debate over how this controversy should be covered, and how much weight various claims/sources should be given. This needs to be kept within the planned parenthood article, where it can be properly contextualized, and where correct weight can be applied. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:00, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:Cwobeel, what evidence do you have for a POV issue? We cover all sides of the issue, and any POV issues can be dealt with in the normal manner. This is actually what policy requires. It's a WP:SPINOFF sub-article. See the block of policy quoted below. This is the ideal solution to problems in both the PP and CMP articles. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:20, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is obvious is it not? You have an article on Center for Medical Progress, about which the only notable thing is the PP videos. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:14, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:CFCF, what evidence do you have for a POV issue? We cover all sides of the issue, and any POV issues can be dealt with in the normal manner. This is actually what policy requires. It's a WP:SPINOFF sub-article. See the block of policy quoted below. This is the ideal solution to problems in both the PP and CMP articles. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:20, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly? Bound to be contentious though, I figured a discussion can't hurt. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I've been surprised that there wasn't an article on the subject - it certainly seems independently notable. So the idea of a fork by itself is fine, and the POVishness can be improved by editing. StAnselm (talk) 22:09, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
read WP:POVFORK, we already have an article on Planned Parenthood. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:10, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean the bit that says "Since what qualifies as a "POV fork" can itself be based on a POV judgement, it may be best not to refer to the fork as "POV" except in extreme cases of persistent disruptive editing"? StAnselm (talk) 22:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No. The bit about The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major points of view on a certain subject should be treated in one article. (my highlight) - Cwobeel (talk) 22:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and I would say that this should be the article. StAnselm (talk) 22:33, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)This was my primary rationale for nominating (although I think there are other good arguments that could be made for deletion too). PP faces one of these controversies every few years, and the charges/allegations that are made by PP opponents often prove to have been misleading in the long term. Mainstream media sources already suggest that the same thing is happening in this case. Spinning off a separate article, where the allegations are discussed in detail, but the longer history of PP and the opposition it has faced is not, gives undue weight to the claims that critics of the organization are making in this controversy. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:38, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. To the extent that this will appear notable in a year's time, it will be entirely through the impact on Planned Parenthood as an organization. That impact should be (and is) covered at the article on the organization, with appropriate weight and context. --JBL (talk) 23:22, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or merge. I see no reason why a separate article is necessary or useful. --Ashenai (talk) 01:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete article adds nothing over Center for Medical Progress article and simply removes content about links to Operation Rescue that users personally don't like (though it is accepted as due on CMP page). User who created has a history of edit warring on the Theodore Roosevelt page. -- Callinus (talk) 01:36, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Wikipedia keeps articles which meet WP:N. This event which this article describes passes WP:GNG because the event was covered multiple times from various perspectives by reliable sources. Passing GNG passes N. This article is a fork of Planned Parenthood, which is a good thing. Content merges happen when good content can be put back into a parent article, but that should not happen in this case. This event has been covered to an extent that merging this to that article would be WP:UNDUE, and the response to good content which is WP:UNDUE is to fork it into its own article. I would like to see someone who wants this deleted to comment on WP:N - does this not meet Wikipedia's basic inclusion criteria? In what way does it not? Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:06, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This article is an obvious WP:POVFORK. Eclipsoid (talk) 04:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eclipsoid, what evidence do you have for a POV issue? We cover all sides of the issue, and any POV issues can be dealt with in the normal manner. This is actually what policy requires. It's a WP:SPINOFF sub-article. See the block of policy quoted below. This is the ideal solution to problems in both the PP and CMP articles. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:20, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Article adds a lot of notable and current event information which, as past, similar articles have shown us, do end up pertaining to WP as a whole. This article also meets WP:NOTE by a very large margin and I would also like to ask for editors to show how it doesn't. This and other similarly politically motivated articles generate a lot of tension between editors. This should caution us to take the extra steps to NOT make this a Speedy Delete nor just ask to Delete on the sake of future lack of notability. If you go to Planned Parenthood's Talk Page and scan the currently available sources just there, I can easily count over 30 proper sources commenting on this issue with the vast majority of these posting follow up articles as the days go by. This should not be so easily dismissed. 200.42.237.185 (talk) 06:19, 5 August 2015 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
What you are actually arguing for here is a merge. The problem--what actually harms Wikipedia in a case like this--is that editors have scattered coverage across no less than four different articles. Editors not finding traction for their edits at one article simply move their preferred version over to the next, or as we see in this case, simply start a fresh article where they can craft their own truth without so much interference from those other pesky editors. It's a textbook POVFORK and in the long run it will actually create more strife among editors rather than mitigate it. Eclipsoid (talk) 06:27, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment Eclipsoid but I still do not see an answer to Blue Raberry's valid point. " This event has been covered to an extent that merging this to that article would be WP:UNDUE, and the response to good content which is WP:UNDUE is to fork it into its own article." 200.42.237.185 (talk) 06:33, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. As the proper spinoff sub-article is being developed, it becomes more apparent that it will be able to cover what could be seen as excessive coverage in both the PP and CMP articles. Both articles will benefit from the SPINOFF because we will be able to go into more detail there, and leave shorter summaries in each main article. This is how we're supposed to deal with these types of issues, so please help develop it. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Essentially the same thing was done for ACORN 2009 undercover videos controversy. 173.228.118.114 (talk) 18:56, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Getting tagged as a spa probably wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't conspicuously from editor who exclusively edits controversial political subjects as well and happens to have expressed a differing opinion in the AfD. Screw this noise. 173.228.118.114 (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I notice the sections on the controversy in both Center for Medical Progress (political organization) and Planned Parenthood are both very long. For the PP article, at least, I would have thought it was approaching undue weight. So a question for those who !vote delete: is that what you anticipate the long-term situation to be? Essentially the same content duplicated in two articles? Doesn't it make sense to combine them in an article on the specific topic? Regardless of POV issues, is there room for a legitimate WP:SPINOFF situation here? StAnselm (talk) 22:27, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:StAnselm is correct. There must not be any POV violation in a main article or a spinout subarticle, so the opposition argument (that's it's a POV FORK) is moot. If POV is violated, then fix it. The two articles deal with the same subject, and those sections are getting way too long, so policy says to create a spinoff sub-article:
The length in both main articles is now a problem, so "it is more appropriate to break that section out as a separate sub-article...." I think it's time to do it, and this article serves that purpose. The burden of proof that it's a POV fork is on opposers, and if that is a problem, then fix it, don't delete it. We really do need this sub-article, and it's a great added bonus that it solves a problem for two articles. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Agree with others that it's an obvious POV fork. Rockypedia (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, it's not obvious, and if NPOV is violated, then fix it. We need this article. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rockypedia, what evidence do you have for a POV issue? We cover all sides of the issue, and any POV issues can be dealt with in the normal manner. This is actually what policy requires. It's a WP:SPINOFF sub-article. See the block of policy quoted below. This is the ideal solution to problems in both the PP and CMP articles. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:24, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Blue Rasberry and BullRangifer.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 04:24, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – I agree with BullRangifer. It seems like a proper use of summary style to me. I mean, Planned Parenthood is involved in a lot of controversies. Having a rule that every single Planned Parenthood controversy can only be discussed in the main article would leave us with an unmanageably long article. If some of the controversies have spinoff articles but not this one, it gives this controversy undue weight in the main article. That's why we had summary style, I thought. If people's real objection is that this is a nontroversy rather than a controversy, then the nomination should be about that instead. Summary style is good. AgnosticAphid talk 15:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for reasons better articulated by User:BullRangifer and User:Agnosticaphid. --BrianCUA (talk) 15:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is an acceptable content fork with enough detail that shoehorning it into the Planned Parenthood article would be WP:UNDUE as the coverage there is already borderline excessive. This topic should still be covered briefly at Planned Parenthood. Care should be taken to ensure that both articles conform with the rules on neutrality and weight. gobonobo + c 00:28, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per WP:POVFORK. This isn't a new topic, and it isn't even a new issue within the Planned Parenthood article. It is merely more of the same politically motivated maneuvering which has been part of the PP story for the last couple of decades. Certainly the material presented here is referenced, but that doesn't make it a separate topic. Instead, it is part of the PP story. It should be dealt with at the PP article. Binksternet (talk) 21:23, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Binksternet, it would only be a POVFORK if it presented only one side of the story, and it doesn't do that. It's a proper spinoff sub-article, as required by policy (you need to read my comments above). Quoting policy:
  • "Essentially, it is generally acceptable to have different levels of detail of a subject on different pages, provided that each provides a balanced view of the subject matter. This can happen when a particular controversial incident gets a lot of attention from editors representing different points of view, expanding until every item of evidence is included and referenced. This kind of detailed examination of a single incident in a general article will usually be considered to give Undue Weight to the incident so it is more appropriate to break that section out as a separate sub-article and just have a summary in the main article." (emphasis added)
There are examples of prominent sub-articles above. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:46, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Then tell me why the article under discussion has only 2015 material in it. The selection of just 2015 material was a mistake, a POV mistake. Binksternet (talk) 02:58, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This particular controversy arose in 2015 and pertains to the CMP videos. The 2010 controversy may well warrant its own article, but that is not what we're talking about here. StAnselm (talk) 03:08, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect! Then the material ought to be MERGED into the CMP article. In any case, there should not both be a CMP article and a 2015 undercover video article. Binksternet (talk) 03:39, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if CMP is only notable for their role in this controversy, then it should not have its own article, per WP:INHERITORG. StAnselm (talk) 04:17, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:StAnselm has a point. The solution would be to merge relevant CMP content here and delete the CMP article. This is all they are known for. They are self-admittedly a bogus organization created only for this purpose, so the hollows out any claim to independent notability. But, let's get this article accepted first and then deal with this idea in a later RfC. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:13, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy delete. This article is an obvious WP:POVFORK. In addition, it gives undue credence to claims that have been debunked by nearly every major media outlet, and no wrongdoing on the part of Planned Parenthood has been found. User:naha8 22:33, 9 August 2015 — naha8 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. (Blocked editor)
Actually, as the article indicates, there was wrongdoing found in Florida. StAnselm (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Whether there was or wasn't "wrongdoing" is really not relevant to whether full coverage of this controversy belongs in the main PP article or in its own article. It isn't even really relevant to the question of whether the controversy is notable, which isn't the topic of discussion here. Regardless, have you read Wikipedia:Summary style? I can't see how creating a special rule that says "this is exempt from our summary style rules because it's kinda controversial" is consistent with the purpose of the summary style guideline. And if you read Wikipedia:Content forking carefully, that guideline also doesn't create such a rule, as BullRangifer noted above. Indeed, Wikipedia:Content forking encourages the proper use of Wikipedia:Summary style. AgnosticAphid talk 00:00, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Agnosticaphid is correct. Proper NPOV coverage would include any wrongdoing and deal with coverage of all sides of the issue. We don't write hagiographies or sales brochures here. Since that's not an issue here, we just need to decide if we're going to follow our WP:SPINOFF policy or not. Doing so would solve the big problems with overly long coverage in TWO articles. It's not often we can "kill two birds with one stone" here. This is the best solution, and effort should be placed into this article, not into the sections in those articles. When this one is fairly complete, we can reduce the size of those sections and leave a SUMMARY STYLE section, with main links to this article. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:13, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Substantial topic of intense media coverage and an ongoing situation. WP needs a dedicated POR for this event as it's unfolding is much larger than can be infused into the original PPH article. DasReichenz (talk) 01:01, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider splitting the other undercover videos material here. As the main article documents, such to-dos flare up every two years or so and never go anywhere. There's no reason to have a separate article on this one, but I'm likewise sensitive to the argument that it'd overwhelm the main article, so, split all of it out instead of just 2015. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:35, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there anymore than the "Live Action undercover videos" section? That one is very short and thus can remain as is. If it actually needs further development, then we could combine it here and make this all into a larger WP:SPINOFF sub-article (with a different title), but, to avoid complicating things, I think that decision should wait. Let's settle this one first. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:13, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also don't see a reason to have a separate article on the "Center for Medical Progress". The two are obviously redundant. I think the POV issues other users identify can be fixed through normal editing - but they also should be fixed through normal editing, and a keep result must not be taken as an endorsement of any presentation of the events that depends on unreliable sources or misrepresents reliable ones. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:39, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, any POV issues can be dealt with in the normal manner. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:13, 10 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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