Talk:Vanguard party

RVV

Hi, I made a small change today to delete the text "I love it." from the end of the article.

Removed

I know that the phrase ", often seeking to create a single-party state" is inappropriate for many of the groups that would fall under the category of vanguard parties. I cannot speak of the Islamist party mentioned, but many Leninist parties do not seek the creation of a single-party state. That is a claim made by their detractors, particularly among right-wing critics, and hence would be a POV issue. I've removed the phrase on the assumption that anyone who wants to add it back can support it with clear evidence.

Reply

Historically speaking, I guess it depends on WHICH Leninist party assumes power. Contrary to popular belief, the original Bolsheviks banned only the Black Hundred immediately after the revolution (even the liberal Cadets weren't out of the picture). During the civil war, various parties were banned from and reinstated into the political process, depending on their stance towards small-s soviet power (the councils, not the latter "Soviet power" associated with the Soviet state). [forgot to put my signature] Darth Sidious 04:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Superficial article -- fix this damned thing!

Is it just me, or is this article largely clueless and fundamentally flawed? It's not completely so -- only mostly so. And therefore a travesty of an encyclopedia article. In other words: this article needs expert attention immediately!

But since I'm tied up with revolutionary matters -- and not the expert I'd like to be on these important, involved details of broad theory -- I ain't gonna get into what isn't what, here, now. Just consider that someone has questioned the competency of the author(s).

I give this article a D+ for theory. B for effort (it's too short, for one thing).

Pazouzou 06:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I have two specific points: 1) Is it right to have "grassroots organization" in the header? A vanguard party is by definition a party, which is by definition not a grassroots org? (And a vanguard is by definition not a mass organization). 2) Shouldn't it mention some of the people who shaped Lenin's views on this matter, specifically Karl Kautsky and George Plekhanov? BobFromBrockley 16:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

No answers. I'm acting on (1) and will get around to (2). BobFromBrockley 17:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's largely clueless. In particular, this: "Lenin's ideas about the proletarian revolutionary party differed from the ideas of Marx. According to Marx, the working class, merely by following its own instincts [citation needed], would gain rational insight into its plight as the downtrodden product of capitalism. This strikes me as incredibly oversimplified and really quite biased against Leninism. I edited in the phrase "[citation needed]" manually, because I can't figure out how to add an official citation needed notice, sorry. But really, the claim that Marx believed in a spontaneous simultaneous uprising of the workers is more than a bit silly, and the fact is that mass Marxist parties existed in pretty much every country of Europe in 1917, not just in Russia, so clearly the vanguard party idea cannot be either solely the invention of Lenin or entirely counter to Marx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.9.36.154 (talk) 06:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Experts needed

The article covers the subject with minimal detail. Now it's accurate after I added bits that show that the purpose of the party is not to wrest control, but to educate the workers. Before the article had indeed been bourgeois propaganda. Nonetheless it still needs work. Someone should read What is to be done? a few dozen times then start editing! Become one with the book, and you're a qualified expert on vanguard parties... (Demigod Ron 02:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC))

Origin of Term

This article talks about the origin of the concept (which is rather vague), but not about the origin of the term.

Lenin did not use the term "vanguard party" in What Is To Be Done and going by the Marxists Archive (www.marxists.org) used it very rarely elsewhere. In What Is To Be Done his model party is the German Social Democrats.

So who first used the term?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Substantiate your claim . . . please.

Dear West Viginia Editor No. 184.9.175.144:

Please, do not vandalize the article (" ’cause I say so”). Your argument is specious solely because the term “vanguard party” does not feature in Marx's text; the Communist mention is the starting point whence Lenin proceeded. After all, if what you anonymously claim is true, surely, you can substantiate and demonstrate your point. C'mon, abide the Wikipedia rules, and prove your point with facts and a citation.

Regards, Mhazard9 (talk) 21:40, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Proletarians and Communists

The quote that is provided in the article, preceded by the statement "Friedrich Engels and Karl Marx presented the concept of the vanguard party as solely qualified to politically lead the proletariat in revolution; in Chapter II: "Proletarians and Communists" of The Communist Manifesto (1848), they said...", while entirely relevant, is actually a quote saying that a vanguard party is not the role of a communist party, but rather they must help the masses to come into revolution themselves: A vanguard party's goal is not the "formation of the proletariat into a class", or "conquest of political power by the proletariat". As I believe someone has already written in the talk page, Lenin was the first person to come up with the idea of a vanguard party, Marx and Engels were against any such ideas. 58.6.244.131 (talk) 02:07, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

The use of this quote is problematic. Marx and Engels are not credited with this idea. It is seen as unique to Lenin. However, the concept of a vanguard party is hard to pin down. The principles of a party line, discipline, and organisation, while emphasised by Leninist parties, were not unique to them. And rather than being opposed to "mass parties", Communist Parties were in fact the largest parties in the world in their heyday. Lenin's concept can be best understood in reaction, not to Marx and Engels etc, but to the particular situation at the time:

• In Russia: a broad revolutionary movement had developed, and the Mensheviks were unwilling to separate the Marxist movement from everyone else. The direction of the revolutionary movement was clearly at stake.
• Globally: ostensibly Marxist parties had developed into broad movements. The German Social Democrats (which were avowedly Marxist until after WW2) included people like Bernstein who rejected the idea of revolution. When the war broke out, the majority of the party supported their government and subsequently condemned the Bolshevik Revolution.

In these conditions there were clearly decisive differences among socialists and within the working class movement more generally. These decisive differences did not exist for Marx and Engels.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:02, 27 December 2012 (UTC)