Jump to content

Talk:Mass sexual assault in Egypt

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Amanouz (talk | contribs) at 15:14, 16 January 2016. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Votes for keep

KEEP, this Article up for it is truth in explaining and educating in the actions taken mostly by muslim men against Kuffar women as well as muslim women if no Kafir woman is available. This is easily shown in the rape scenes across the Globe. Examples of this ‘game’ are: The RAPE of Lara Logan and several others in Egypt during the Tahrir Square rallies. As well currently in the E.U. After the NYE [New Years Eve 2015] mass assaults against women in several European cities, the German Federal Criminal Police Office, BKA, say that the Arab "rape game" Taharrush has established itself in Europe. These few facts alone show why this article should stay up. It is understandable that political Islamic people would want to hide this and have it removed…but, Wikipedia is here to provide true and accurate information for the education of all. This article is the basis of what Wikipedia was built for.

KEEP!I was relieved to find the term Taharrush Gamea in an online newspaper because it is impossible to grasp or being to understand a new phenomenon if it has no name. I hope Wikipedia will not allow political correctness to censor or delete this term. Clearly it is a collective means of harrassing and seeking to defile women. Clearly it came to Cologne on NYE via new refugee immigrants. Clearly it is a recent development emerging from Arab culture and clearly it needs to be studied. By the way, I am a female and spent a vacation in Egypt in 1999, well before the Arab Spring. The harrassment everywhere I went (even in the company of my father and stepmother) was intense but not ugly, invasive and violent as it has now become. Nevertheless it caused me to resist leaving the hotel. (In case it means anything, I was covered head to foot out of respect for the local culture LOL) 4Winds7Seas (talk) 00:25, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I propose that the flags on this article be removed. The issues are resolved in my opinion - there is enough evidence as to why the article is valid and neutral. Maybe a senior editor can look at this issue and close it?S. Textor (talk) 21:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

These comments should probably be made on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taharrush gamea, not here. Oliv0 (talk) 14:40, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Used prior to 2016?

Casual Wikipedia user here, just wondering: if this is a term used in Egypt prior to 2016, why can I not find any sources for it in English from before post-Cologne events? Is this term real or media hype?

Stopping sexismy and mysogyny remains an important issue for Social Work; see here: OpAntiSH: Operation Anti Sexual Harassment, (Arabic: قوة ضد التحرش, transliterated: Quwwa did al-taharosh) is an activist group based in Cairo. OpAntiSH on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/opantish/ 79.251.70.209 (talk) 17:20, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not an answer to the question. There is also no evidence from before the time of Cologne. This seems to have been an extreme-right fabrication.
See this [1] and [2]. The former paper is published Summer 2015. It seems it's actually called el- taḥarrush el-ginsy, so maybe sloppy transliteration by the media. On page 29 they talk about researching the terms 'taharrush' and 'taharrush ginsy' on online Arabic discussion forums and blogs during the period 2000-2012.


Sorry but there is lots of evidence of it before 2016. You just have to do an advanced google search thats just for page published before 2016

https://www.google.ie/search?q=Taharrush&safe=off&authuser=0&biw=1279&bih=592&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A%2Ccd_max%3A01%2F01%2F2016&tbm=#q=Taharrush&safe=off&authuser=0&tbs=cdr:1,cd_max:01/01/2016&start=30

Here is an example from 2013, 3 years ago, from the Egyptian revolution, describing the exact same kind of behaviour and using the exact same word.

" there have been 186 recorded sexual assaults—including eighty the night that former President Mohamed Morsi was overthrown. Many of these attacks are mob-style sexual assaults, often involving between fifty and 100 assailants, in which a woman is surrounded, stripped, groped and in some cases beaten and gang-raped until she needs medical attention. And in some recent cases, women were attacked and penetrated with knives and other weapons.

In Egypt, they call this the 'Circle of Hell.' "

" Although sexual harassment has always been widespread in Egypt, it is only recently that the word “taharrush,” meaning “harassment” in Egyptian Arabic, has come into the popular lexicon. "

http://www.thenation.com/article/exploiting-egypts-rape-culture-political-gain/ - The entry uses newspaper article as reliable source of socio-cultural phenomenon which the author claims to be deeprooted and widespread yet is not recorded in any anthropological work.

You might not like the idea but this does appear to be a pretty clear cut case of a very extreme case of rape culture which seems to have roots in Egypt. Widespread gang rape is nothing specific to Arab or Muslim countries, its pretty common when there is a breakdown of society.

You might not like it but you dont get to cry "rightwing conspiracy" just cause you haven't bothered to research it enough

The following books from mainstream sources appear to demonstrate the use of taharrush to describe gang harrassment/rape prior to the 2016 Cologne incident. None of these books appear, at least after a superficial skimming, to be part of "an extreme-right fabrication".

- Sex and the Citadel: Intimate Life in a Changing Arab World by Shereen El Feki. Doubleday Canada, 2013: https://books.google.com/books?id=UJqfAefRnugC&lpg=PT144&dq=Taharrush&pg=PT144#v=onepage&q=Taharrush&f=false

- The Security Archipelago: Human-Security States, Sexuality Politics, and the End of Neoliberalism, by Paul Amar. Duke University Press, 2013 https://books.google.com/books?id=XEG2AgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA298&dq=Taharrush&pg=PA298#v=onepage&q=Taharrush&f=false

sorry for formatting mistakes, I don't spend a lot of time on talk pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.118.122.125 (talk) 20:26, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic version?

I am wondering why there is no Arabic wiki link to ‎‎ this term. Shall we ask our Arab colleagues to create it? Zezen (talk) 14:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By searching there for this term, I only got the "Sexual harassment" article, which discussess... a MIT USA case, not Egypt or Saudi Arabia. Check for yourself. Zezen (talk) 14:46, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Anti Sexual Harassment, (Arabic: قوة ضد التحرش, transliterated: Quwwa did al-taharosh, also known as OpAntiSH) is an activist group based in Cairo. OpAntiSH on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/opantish/ 79.251.70.209 (talk) 17:17, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I meant the Arabic version hereof, not a third-party FB pages. Zezen (talk) 13:12, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Inadequacy of the page

At best, creating an article with a specific linguistic name can appear as a manner to essentialise it. At worst, it is a bad attempt to politicise Wikipedia. I suggest the article to be removed and the information to be relocated in appropriate and existing pages, such as "Sexual harassment" and "Violence against women". The sources and the date of creation of the page, as well as its use on the Internet, indicate rather clearly that the aim of this page is not to enlighten but to manipulate. 92.20.56.248 (talk) 08:26, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed this is just a word for gang rape that has its roots in Egypt. Like I said further up the page, this is nothing specific to Egypt, gang rape is sadly pretty common, especially when societies breakdown. This word and these case deserve a mention but only as part of the general topic of gang rape. Ive added sexual harassment, violence against women and rape culture to the links at the end of the page as it really was stupid and pretty racist just to have Eve Teasing as the only link!

Linguistic name or not, the term does exist and has been written about for some years at least. If this information is moved to other pages than this term should label it there.

Answer to the politicising Wikipedia comment: Wikipedia (just like any other encyclopedia) is a work in progress. Just the fact that a new obscure term or subject worthy of an article is made into an article after it was brought to the attention of the public by a political development, that does not mean it is not a valid encyclopedia entry. Gang rape has it's own page, and so does Eve Teasing. There is enough of a difference between these and the taharrush, in my opinion, to give each their own page.S. Textor (talk) 18:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rename

As I have said at the AFD, I would support renaming to something in English, such as "group sexual assault" for these group attacks that stop short of gang rape. Rename suggestions?E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:55, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, ‏تحرش جماعي‎ Taḥarruš ǧamāʿī is of general interest for journalism, police work, Social Work, etc., and worth the own article. Perhaps we should rename the title (lemma) to Taharrush jamaʿi (as Taharrush gamea derives from the Egyptian pronunciation)? 79.251.80.125 (talk) 17:42, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What do we do about the fact that Eve teasing describes the identical phenomenon, identical social drivers, only in the sub-contintent, not the Arabic-speaking World. But Eve-teasing does not appear to be in use in Britain, Canada or the U.S.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:03, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We do nothing - we do not have to decide if it's the exact same phenomenon or it has the same 'social drivers'. That is not what an encyclopedia does. We would need an authoritative source to say that these are all the same thing, and I don't think we do. The links to the other similar phenomena are enough, until we have new reliable information.S. Textor (talk) 18:56, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As I read it, Eve teasing lacks the "gang" aspect. The attacks described here are usually attributed to a group of 50-100 men who attack multiple women. ET seems to be smaller scale (although more frequent.) Lfstevens (talk) 23:19, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As said, this is about a government practice respectively means of oppression. IN so far its begin is closely related to Egypt and the history of the last decade. The behavior spread to young people and to other countries. The term has been described in various research papers. I would call the Puerto Rican Day Parade attacks as proof of concept that Zeitgeist is global and any sort of invention happens at different places, good or bad. But Taharrash is an established term and will stay so, it just enters the german language. Polentarion Talk 01:58, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply] 

Polentarion Talk 01:58, 14 January 2016 (UTC)  I would prefer to use the general term Taharrush, as it involves the grouop aspect abut is as well covering the political role in Egypt.[reply]


Renaming

Taharrush would be much more suitable, as Taharrush gamea is only a part of the story. Taharrush al ginsi (adds the sexual aspect) but Taharrush embodies all. Polentarion Talk 00:11, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I said in this edit soon reverted by User:Gamaliel, a more suitable name for this topic would be the English equivalent "group/gang harassment", maybe specifying "street/outdoors/in public" like the "public sexual harassment" found in the first sentence of the article "Abdelmonem 2015b", because such a universal definition of the topic, without an implied reference to Arabic culture in the name, will in my view make it easier to avoid racism and get a neutral, balanced article. In fact it seems to me that the current title "Taharrush gamea" is just a way to mean "Sexual harassment by gangs of Arabs" without being clear that the topic is so unacceptable. Oliv0 (talk) 19:53, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Collective harassment" is my proposal--Dans (talk) 20:11, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you plan to remove this page just because "Taharrush Gamea", a single phrase that describes the essence and intentions behind this reprehensible practice far better than any alternative terminology in English, appears to stigmatize a specific culture, you may as well delete "Karoshi" too, which encapsulates the entire essence of the overwork phenomenon as it is endemic in Japanese culture.

PLEASE don't give in to INSANE political correctness. I hate to think Wiki also jumps whenever somebody yells "Boo!" or "Islamophobia!" at it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.92.13 (talk) 05:00, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is not our decision. We have to call it what our sources say we have to call it. We don't get to make up terms. Lfstevens (talk) 22:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Lfstevens: WP:NEO says "it is preferable to use a title that is a descriptive phrase in plain English if possible". Any proof that "gamea" has been really used in English before the recent events in Germany? (not just as "and by the way this is how it is called in Arabic") — in fact it may even be a mangled form of the "gamae" used in the title of a Finnish reference in the article, since this looks more realistic as an Egyptian pronunciation if we start from the standard Arabic jamāʿī. Oliv0 (talk) 09:19, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Luckily more and more English language sources call it by that name. Zezen (talk) 13:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Revert

Another editor incorrectly reverted my addition of the attacks in Sweden, while correctly asserting that the source did not use the term. However, the term describes those attacks as much as it does the others that remain in the article. Thus the reversion makes no sense. I do not edit war, but I would appreciate comments from other editors. Lfstevens (talk) 20:30, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This issue has been widely reported in Sweden, but with no indication that it has been organized or that it's related to Arabic culture. Here's a background summary in Aftonbladet.[6] A festival worker published a debate article denying that the purpetrators were immigrants or refugees.[7] So how exactly are you associating these two articles?
Peter Isotalo 20:39, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sweden's Prime Minister is associating immigrants with incident, I'm just citing him. And press reports:[8].E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:17, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The term is being used in Swedish reports: [9], [10], [11]. I do not see that anyone is accusing Arab men, but they are saying migrants, refugees. this story is developing fast, these usages may postdate Perer Isltalo last look at recent sources.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:14, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The first source is Nyheter Idag and is widely considered sensationalist and it only mentions Germany. The third one is Samtiden, a newspaper that is owned by the Sweden Democrats and is hopelessly biased.
Only the second one, Norwegian Fedrelandsvennen seems to make any connection, but it's unclear since it's behind a paywall. It's also not a news article but an opinion piece.
Peter Isotalo 21:24, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I can't really judge reliability of Swedish and Norwegian sources, but something like "considered sensationalist", "hopelessly biased" (in your opinion) or "behind a paywall" is generally not a sufficient reason for excluding sources. Also note that you already violated WP:3RR rule on this page. My very best wishes (talk) 21:46, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
and the connection between the sexual assaults by groups of young immigrants in Sweden and those in Germany is also drawn: [12] by The Guardian, that hopelessly biased, fiercely pro-immigration newspaper. Really, we can't exclude a paper owned by a major force in Swedish politics such as Sweden Democrats. It is part of the conversation.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:44, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Party media are normal business in a lot of European countries. I would include as well a see also on the 2000 puerto rico parade incidents. Polentarion Talk 19:02, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Expert commentary

So here's the first comment from a Swedish-language source that interviewed people working for HarassMap in Egypt.[13] The term is simply the Arabic words for "group harassment" but not a specific cultural practice. Sexual harassment is a huge problem for women in Egypt, but there's no indication that it's organized. The only exception is what happened during the 2011 protests which was politically motivated violence.

Peter Isotalo 21:40, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No one claims that it is an "organized" practice. It's a cultural practice. And the question at issue is how this term is being used in contemporary European discourse. Words and phrases cross borders and shift meanings. I think the usage in this: [14] BBC article is especially pertinent, coming as it does form a German government report. But, truly, the behavior is real. Groups of young men do surround and forcibly grope young women. As I have said above in this discussion, I would prefer an English term. And a term that encompasses the bad behavior of young men of sundry ethnic backgrounds. But I am finding myself unable to dismiss the deluge of reporting now using this term in this way, in more than one country and several languages.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:50, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have no trouble changing the title as long as it is specific to this multinational phenomenon. The scale of the Cologne events suggests at least a flash mob level of organization is present, but we need sources to make that call for us. Lfstevens (talk) 22:13, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I provided some real sources which can be used to cover HarassMap en detail. The term is much more than the Arabic words for "group harassment" and started as a government practice. IN so far its begin is closely related to Egypt, but the the behavior spread. Polentarion Talk 01:48, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edit war

This piece is showing all the unfortunate signs of other controversial articles with lots of reverts. This is a terrible way to work. It wastes much time and generates lots of stress without helping the readers. I propose that substantive changes be hashed out on Talk before they go into the article. I expect lots of other editors to show up given the currency of the topic and I hope that everybody will welcome them rather than tossing out good faith efforts without discussion. Cheers! Lfstevens (talk) 22:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

German article

I have provided some scientific sources on the article in the deWP and made it nearly AfD safe. While the German article still has some issues (and an ongoing afd), its now more on the WP snow side. I will add some of my foundings here as well. The article here lacks e.g. the Egyptian political cloud and historical background.Polentarion Talk 00:11, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a tabloid article or Actually academic

The use of the term seems highly controversial for one.

Academic sources do not exist. References prior to the tabloid news frenzy before 2016 do not exist on the internet.

Is this article being written as a News article? Does it follow WP:NOPOV ? Does this align with WP:NOR ?

Pranav (talk) 12:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

PLease read the current version. Academic sources exist and have been introduced. Polentarion Talk 16:33, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It looks NPOV enough to me. Zezen (talk) 16:49, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of Rape in Egypt into this article (closed)

Rape is not the adequate word. The article lacks scientific sourcing (which us available) and does not cover the political intentions of sexual harrassment being directed against female activsists in the public space Polentarion Talk 16:31, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the page as it is. We do not need an English word for this, there is no English equivalent. No not merge this with any other page. SlowIsSmoth (talk) 18:37, 14 January 2016 (UTC)SlowIsSmooth[reply]

Sorry, maybe I have used the wrong template. I would prefer to reduce Rape in Egypt to a redirect. Polentarion Talk 18:56, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

    • Point is the largest part of Rape in Egypt is not about rape. In so far lets close it. This is a case where WP:Merging Overlap applies, since we have two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Moving content to a suitable article is policy based and -informed. Polentarion Talk 19:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I meant to reduce Rape in Egypt, as said and start to use real sourcing overthere. E.g., as mentioned in the Taharrush sources, the penal code has no working paragraph on rape, an not much (till 2014, due to a Taharrush case on a Law University campus) against harrassment. The victim is always in danger to be accused of adultery. Taharrush - molestation - is a everyday experience for any woman in a public space. Polentarion Talk 21:35, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see no justification for moving content here. It would be far more appropiate to move rape in Egypt to sexual assault in Egypt to get wider coverage and merge part of this article elsewhere. This article is mostly about European perceptions about sexual violence by non-europeans. It's about a term as used in the European press and politics more than any actual cultural trait or even sexual harassment or assault as such. Peter Isotalo 14:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Report of the Ministry of Interior in NRW, official translation of Taharrush gamea

We already have some quotes (BBC, FAZ and others in the article of an official report of the NRW Ministry of the Interior to the parlamentary committee in charge. Its available online at the Ministry, Stellungnahme des Innenministeriums an den Innenausschuss des nordrhein-westfälischen Landtags, Bericht des Ministeriums für Inneres und Kommunales über die Übergriffe am Hauptbahnhof Köln in der Sylvesternacht, Düsseldorf 10.1.2016, 15 pages, Letter of Innenminister Jäger to the Parlamentary Presidium and the Comittee of the Interior. Caveat: This is German, even worse, its official German. It describes „Tatbegehungsform sexualisierter Gewaltstraftaten durch Gruppen in Verbindung mit Eigentums und Raubdelikten“ (Forms of committing sexualized crimes by groups in connection with theft and robbery) under the Modus operandi Taharrush gamea, the latter being translated into gemeinsame sexuelle Belästigung in Menschenmengen, I would express that as joint sexual harrassment in large crowds. I still prefer the Arab expression, but you got now a translateable Euroean term for our common article. Polentarion Talk 23:52, 15 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This term is too unwieldy to use here. Zezen (talk) 13:18, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why not Egypt page?

Seems to me the article's focus is in Egyptian society, politics media and culture, and allowing its specificity, why not move it to a paragraph about crime in the Egypt article? even the translations of the arabic words are in the Egyptian dialect characterized by the use of "G" as the phonic equivalent of the Arabic letter "ج" instead of "j" in classical Arabic. Happy birthday Wikipedia and community.

Amanouz (talk) 15:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mass_sexual_assault_in_Egypt&oldid=700120339"