Talk:2016 Turkish coup attempt

Internet Censorship

Seeing reports that Facebook, Twitter are being blocked. Is there any secondary sources to confirm this? Davidcarroll (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/turkey-coup-live-updates-explosion-8431256#rlabs=1%20rt$category%20p$4 Cbrittain10 (talk|contribs) 20:41, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

@Cbrittain10: Here's your second source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara -- Gestrid (talk) 21:44, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Add Cites

Dear Fellow Editors, Please add cites to the text. Such as: Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim has said military action was being "taken outside thechain of command" and it was an "illegal attempt" to seize power by "part of the military".— Preceding unsigned comment added by Geraldshields11 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 15 July 2016‎ (UTC)

References

Syria

Keep abreast of Syrian reaction...gonna be the most important.Lihaas (talk) 21:20, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

And Egypt will be crucial too.Lihaas (talk) 21:41, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

[2,733,044 Syrian refugees in Turkey.] Good source information on registered refugees from Syria in prep for that portion of the article Adam Louis Marré (talk) 00:25, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

The Guardian Liveblog

The Guardian, a news website, is currently liveblogging the event. Here's the link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara -- Gestrid (talk) 21:38, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

'See also' deletion (Martial law)

Hi, DatGuy. Just wondering, why did you delete 'Martial law' from 'See also'? Ceannlann gorm (talk) 21:44, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

@Ceanlann gorm: Whoops, sorry. Didn't realise I did that, maybe it was an edit conflict? Feel free to add it again. Dat Guy^Talk_Contribs 22:03, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

 Done No problem, happens to us all. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 22:20, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Request to remove flags

Please, PLEASE, can this article's sensible editors refrain from adding flags to the international reaction section. What we are surely aiming for is a reaction section which captures a relevant range of quotes from across the geopolitical section, not a "my country isn't there, let's include it" approach. Take the final paragraph at Killing of Jo Cox#Reactions for an example. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 21:56, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree, no flags please. Davidcarroll (talk) 21:58, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

This only serves to keep the article consistent with other pages on this wiki (Example: Reactions_to_the_2016_Nice_attack#Countries). Consistency in formatting is an important consideration in articles. Cbrittain10 (talk|contribs) 22:01, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

"Consistency in formatting is an important consideration in articles." MOS:FLAG suggests the exact opposite. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 22:12, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

You are correct in that, however in articles of this category (international event), most do it in this manner. Compared to the Jo Cox incident, this is likely to attract attention from a large amount of government leaders. Prose is good in most cases, however the list is growing, and could prove to become too messy if it was prose. A list however keeps things clear and organized (assuming that some sort of order is kept), which is good considering how many reactions are likely going to be added. Cbrittain10 (talk|contribs) 22:21, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Yall sensible is not everyone idea. Get with the real world! And find global consensusLihaas (talk) 22:03, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I'll consider it. But if there is not a current, relevant policy or guideline, this talk page's consensus should be respected, whichever way that goes. And I'm pretty confident it will fall on the side of whichever approach is most likely to produce the better outcome. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 22:12, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Turkish Police Response

General Directorate of Security (police force) should be noted as one of the opposing forces against the coup. Beatitudinem (talk) 22:10, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

@Beatitudinem: Sorry, but, even during fast-paced current event editing like this, we need a source. Could you provide one? -- Gestrid (talk) 23:30, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

@Beatitudinem: and @Gestrid: I think I found a brief mention, but struggling to find out if they are calling for or against the coup "Dogan News Agency reported the national police directorate summoned all police to duty in Ankara." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3692693/Turkish-military-launch-attempted-coup-depose-government.html#ixzz4EWkL9hrZ Adam Louis Marré (talk) 00:33, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

@Beatitudinem: and @Gestrid: Given that police are being detained and killed, is it safe to at LEAST say that Beatitudinem is correct that the police - but not necessarily the General Directorate of Security - are siding with the original Turkish government? See the picture in this link: http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/15/gunfire-heard-jets-seen-flying-in-turkish-capital-of-ankara.html Adam Louis Marré (talk) 00:39, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

 Done Turkish police is on the side of government inside information box Adam Louis Marré (talk) 00:45, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Fethullah Gülen

Somebody added Fethullah Gülen to the list of the coup commanders. This is not confirmed, it is only alleged by pro-Erdogan side. Therefore, either this entry should be removed, or it should be indicated that it is only alleged. 94.253.167.163 (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

 Done Cbrittain10 (talk|contribs) 22:31, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Does this fall under BLP, until such time as confirmation emerges? Are edits deleting him from the list of coup commanders subject to 3RR? SS451 (talk) 22:36, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

It could potentially be libelous, so I would say that 3RR doesn't apply until it can be sourced properly due to BLP. Cbrittain10 (talk|contribs) 22:38, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Border closures

Turkey's borders have been closed. Perhaps include this after the sentence about Ataturk Airport closure. Media recites this fact, but cannot find sources other than Twitter...--Sirenje (talk) 23:06, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Also, should it be noted that martial law has been enacted and the people were given curfews? --Sirenje (talk)

Already mentioned in article, please disregard. --Sirenje (talk) 23:07, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Ataturk flights

It says "all flights to and from the airport have been cancelled.", but the citation is to Reuters which only mentions flights from the airport have been cancelled. Didn't see any mention stating the airport has completely closed up. 89.139.187.175 (talk) 23:10, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

 Done You're right. Thanks! -- Gestrid (talk) 23:14, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Source that states all flights were cancelled and airport was shut down: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/turkey-military-blocks-bridges-istanbul-160715195444742.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirenje (talk • contribs) 23:19, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Hulusi Akar taken hostage...

Despite being mentioned as one of the commanders in the article, Hulusi Akar was taken hostage by the coup perpetrators. I have already edited this information into the article on Hulusi Akar, but should be mentioned in this article as well. --Sirenje (talk) 23:12, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Already addressed in article. Please disregard. --Sirenje (talk) 23:16, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Bosphorus bridge linking

I would like to create an internal link to the article on the "Bosphorus Bridge" where it is mentioned in the article. Larry Grossman (talk) 23:27, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

 Done StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 23:31, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Erdogan Location

Reports that Erdogan attempted to flee to Germany and seek asylum, but his plane was denied permission to land: http://www.eturbonews.com/72918/turkish-presidents-plane-trying-land-germany-request-denied — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.234.60.132 (talk) 23:37, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

These are unconfirmed, current (unconfirmed) reports include that he is returning to Istanbul. Davidcarroll (talk) 23:42, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Those were initial reports that were addressed in the article, now removed. Other reports have him attempting to reach Ankara. The official position of the Turkish government is that he is in a "secure location" that remains undisclosed. source --Sirenje (talk) 23:46, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

This strikes me as a test of the theory that if you put a random claim next to the name of a news agency, and put it out there on Twitter, sooner or later other news agencies will report it as fact. I'm unaware of evidence that NBC ever made this claim, only of secondary sources reporting that they made it. And indeed, was it NBC reporting it, or someone tweeting/calling them with a second-hand rumour? In situations like this, you really need to go with news agencies that are willing to put their own names to developments.

When the BBC start quoting Reuters, the truth is that they don't really know what's going on but want to tell you what others are reporting. When the BBC reports something without stating the source, they are asserting it to be true. Same goes for every major news organisation in the world. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 23:52, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Why was the information removed that there are reports of his flight and that he's seeking asylum in various European countries? We're not judging it, we're not calling it fact, we're just stating that these reports appeared, and of course we'd have to remain neutral by also mentioning that Turkish goverment TV countered these reports by claiming him to be in safety at an unknown location. The original claim came from an MSNBC reporter who originally twittered that his network had received word of it from US military, and later that they were also broadcasting the news. Apparently, Erdogan flew from his holiday resort to either Ankara or Istanbul airport, where he gave his TV interview and probably also his FaceTime web broadcast in a backroom while waiting to be allowed into the city. When he was denied to leave the airport, his plane took off again, heading straight to Germany where he pleaded for asylum but was denied such without landing, which was the time when Turkish news outlets claimed he was hiding in safety. Then the same happened with the UK as had just happened with Germany. Sources: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. The Daily Mirror even had their eyes on a plane with a peculiar flight route which could be Erdogan on the run: [7] It matches the supposed flight route from his holiday resort to the Turkish airport, then to Germany, hovering in the Bonn area, then across the Netherlands. This was the tracking link they used: [8] Unfortunately, the plane seems to have landed by now and is thus off the radar before I could check the link. Recent Twitter rumors say the plane has landed in Greece. --79.242.222.168 (talk) 01:03, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

@79.242.222.168: It was not removed, the heading was renamed to discuss further his location. I moved from the duplicate section you've created at the bottom of the page, as I'm unsure how to mark up - please keep commentary on his whereabouts within the headings already established Adam Louis Marré (talk) 01:14, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

He is currently in Istanbul after landing at the airport. Davidcarroll (talk) 01:17, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Here's the link in case someone needs it: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/16/world/europe/military-attempts-coup-in-turkey-prime-minister-says.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=64046226&pgtype=Blogs&_r=0 Adam Louis Marré (talk) 01:21, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

In any case, that's what his own state-owned media is saying. Could well be that footage was taken during his stay at the airport before he was denied entrance into the city and his flight to Germany. Meanwhile, official Iranian news networks are reporting that he has landed with family in Tehran for some gas, heading for Qatar: [9], [10] --79.242.222.168 (talk) 01:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Title - "attempt" appropriate at this time?

The word "attempt" implies the coup is over and it was unsuccessful. We don't know that and the latest reports at time of this posting indicates the military has taken over news outlets. [11] I just don't know but this should be scrutinized. --Oakshade (talk) 23:46, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

It's not a successful coup so far, though. They have yet to take control of the government.-- OsirisV (talk) 23:50, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Do we know that?--Oakshade (talk) 23:51, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a Wikipedia is not a Crystal ball.Both coup and attempted coup imply an outcome which we can't predict. Neither are satisfactory. Personally I'd err on the side of attempt.--Monochrome_Monitor 23:55, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) According to various news sources (such as this one) military personnel are being driven back, and that the citizens have successfully gotten into the airport. Personally, I'd say the coup failed, but it's honestly too soon to tell. -- Gestrid (talk) 23:58, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

How about "military uprising" until we know the outcome?-- OsirisV (talk) 00:06, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Media is reporting that coup is over, even reporters in Turkey are declaring. --Sirenje (talk) 00:07, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Even if the military coup failed the country is in chaos. Islamists are protesting in the streets against the secular Kemalists and a huge rift is opening up in turkish society formerly bridged by the AKP.--Monochrome_Monitor 00:08, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

As a general note: these types of discussions are typically unproductive on articles about breaking events with little reliable coverage. The article on the events in Nice has already been moved twice, its sister reaction article three or four times, and there have been I think four renaming discussions on the first article, all of which so far have gone really nowhere. It seems like it's best to stick with whatever name works for now, and have a discussion like this after things have settled down a bit. TimothyJosephWood 00:11, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

I concur! --Monochrome_Monitor 00:17, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

I like OsirisV 's suggested title, but I don't approve of changing article names too much. I suggest letting the dust settle a little bit before any renamingSmarkflea (talk) 01:24, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Infobox issues

Can we remove the whole damn infobox for now and re-add it when the whole thing is over by morning? So far it's been anything but useful, and is currently open to all kinds of unacceptable POVs. An editor or two added Gulen to the coup perpetrators' column (which is clearly Turkish government POV), while another added the 17 officers killed to the government's column (which needs verification). This needs to stop. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:58, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Several different sources have reported on the death of 17 police officers. Source in article is Turkish, should be in English since it is available...--Sirenje (talk) 00:06, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Sources:

• http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/turkey-coup-live-updates-explosion-8431256
• http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/turkey-low-flying-jets-and-gunfire-heard-in-ankara1/

Doesn't have to be in English but English helps. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:08, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not questioning whether 17 officers were killed or not. I'm debating whether they belong to the government's column or coup's. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 00:10, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Government as they were killed by a military helicopter operated by the coup perpetrators.--Sirenje (talk) 00:12, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

German government in support

German Government in support for elected turkish government. @RegSprecher via https://twitter.com/RegSprecher/status/754097088032608256 JayAhr (talk) 00:08, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

 Done This is already being displayed on the article. Adam Louis Marré (talk) 01:18, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Helicopters being taken down

Please write that the helicopters attacket the police special forces headquarters and that they killed the 17 police officers Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-coup-seventeen-police-officers-killed-in-helicopter-attack-on-police-special-forces-reports-a7139866.html Hadilol21 (talk) 00:13, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

AP Reports Bomb

AP has reported that a bomb hit the Turkish Parliament! As seen here. -- Gestrid (talk) 00:25, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Bombing was mentioned in article I believe...12 people injured in blast, but cannot find source. --Sirenje (talk) 00:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

I stand corrected, media reporting two more bombs have just hit the Turkish parliament building... Source: [12] --Sirenje (talk) 00:36, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

TRT being taken hostage

"TRT was taken off air.[7]" --> Employees of TRT reported being "taken hostage" by the coup perpetrators prior to the shut down. Pro-government protesters retook TRT headquarters shortly after, and TRT went back on-air several hours after being shut down.

• Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/turkey-low-flying-jets-and-gunfire-heard-in-ankara1/
• Better Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-broadcaster-idUSKCN0ZW003?mod=related&channelName=worldNews

--Sirenje (talk) 00:27, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Backdrop of corruption in lead-up to coup attempt

In this Newsweek opinion piece from four months ago, it was alleged that corruption was "rife" in Erdoğan's Turkey. When factoring in Erdoğan's dismissal of the 2013 corruption scandal in Turkey as a "judicial coup" by those jealous of his success, shouldn't corruption be mentioned as a backdrop to the conditions in Turkey in the lead-up to the coup d'état attempt ? --maslowsneeds🌈 00:32, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

ISIS Correlation

Are there any topics/headings being opened about how the ISIS may be involved in this? The PM has authorized more air strikes and allowed western countries to use Turkish airspace. Is this too much speculation? Adam Louis Marré (talk) 01:00, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

NYT sources citing it: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/16/world/europe/military-attempts-coup-in-turkey-prime-minister-says.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=64046226&pgtype=Blogs&_r=0 Adam Louis Marré (talk) 01:09, 16 July 2016 (UTC)