User talk:Srtª PiriLimPomPom

WP:V

Hello. Please use sources that directly support the material presented in an article and are appropriate to the claims made and note that the terminological conventions that are employed in a Wikipedia article should generally be the ones most common in the English language, as you would find them in reliable sources. [1] Please refrain from using the IPA notation in a non-standard way (capital letters and tildes do not constitute standard usage). [2] —Omnipaedista (talk) 13:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

This is because 1. Brazilian Portuguese's phoneme /S/ (I can prove our linguistic academy uses this notation with sources, but it had nothing to do with the content of the article in question) cannot be properly described as either /s/ or /ʃ/ (it can also be [z], [ɕ], [ʑ], [ʒ], [h], [ɦ] and phonemic zero) 2. pronunciation in Brazil would need to be verbose for me to indicate just a sole (but important) vowel reduction dialectal variation, and I felt such formality as unnecessary. Ugh, really, you undid my edits to turn them again to incorrect/incomplete information, instead of telling yourself whatever allophone you felt more prevalent, standard or important (what I can't do myself). Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 23:38, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

My objection is that you used a phonemic convention in a phonetic transcription. --Omnipaedista (talk) 15:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Re. 'European?' in labiodental approximant

I thought it likely that the University of Porto's corpus might not carry BP samples. The labiodental approximant might very well occur in BP, but we shouldn't claim it does (be it implicitly) unless we can verify it. — Lfdder (talk) 03:10, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I take it that my pronunciation of the example I put there in a vocaroo file wouldn't count (yes, my v feels "aspirated" rather than voiced-f in malva and louvo). They didn't have BP samples. Sucks, the example [ɐtiʋiˈðad̥ʃ] would very well be a possible carioca pronunciation (it is a perfectly normal stress-timed male one) if not for the absence of palatalization in the "ti" (Rio de Janeiro is the only state where ~100% of people affricate-palatalize ti and di), so we can't even have the illusion that it might be from an immigrant. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 03:16, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. I do actually live with a Carioca, so I might just ask him to say it for me....for science. — Lfdder (talk) 03:42, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

"The world is like an egg"... To me the most interesting part of that source was the reported addition of [ə̯] to monophthongs, especially after /e/ and /o/. Other Brazilians stereotype us as doing it in many places (hell, a sound file I gave people was said to contain it terribly clearly, but I couldn't hear - I was not presented to IPA yet at the time, though, they said it was "oar" and "éar"), but I only have a very slight perception of it as such (I distinguish mas from mais phonetically, but I don't have a short monophthong in the first one either). Now that it seems to be a slight areal feature of northern Portugal I'm very confident that it indeed exists and we inherited it from them. This endless linguistic Portuguese heritage is fun, I never stop learning things. :) Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 03:52, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Your userpage: User:Srtª PiriLimPomPom

Hello there. I just wanted to send you a friendly note about your User page. It is intended for basic information about yourself or your Wikimedia-related activities. A lot of leeway is allowed in personalizing your user page, but it seems a lot like a fake article or essay about your point of view. I'm wondering if you could move it to a subpage? Please don't be offended. Many thanks, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm really sorry! I was supposed to do something like this, but was in a bit of a rush so postponed it, and then completely forgot about its existence. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 11:56, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Not at all. Don't be one bit sorry. :) I'm sorry to be a bother. If you like, you can paste the following to your userpage. They are nice sandboxes -- a good place to hammer out things that will eventually become part of the encyclopedia.

==My sandboxes==
*[[User:Srtª PiriLimPomPom/Sandbox1|Sandbox1]]
*[[User:Srtª PiriLimPomPom/Sandbox2|Sandbox2]]
*[[User:Srtª PiriLimPomPom/Sandbox3|Sandbox3]]

If there is anything you ever need or have any questions, please ask. Thank you, and happy editing. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:19, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Reply

I left a reply at my userpage. AbelM7 (talk) 10:40, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Yaoi

I reverted your edit not because I don't agree. Straight men do sometimes enjoy Yaoi but putting a citation tag where you did suggest gay men don't. Why not add straight men to the sentence rather than challenging that gay men also enjoy it.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 06:30, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate your point, also I already thought that too. I'm just not really sure if the English phrase I used is grammatically okay. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 06:32, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

April 2014

Your recent editing history at Brazilian Sign Language shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. Drmies (talk) 02:03, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for April 12

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Non-native pronunciations of English, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Liaison (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver). Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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May 2014

Please stop your disruptive editing. Your edits have been reverted or removed.

• If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
• If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive until the dispute is resolved through consensus. Continuing to edit disruptively may result in your being blocked from editing. JustBerry (talk) 00:28, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

@JustBerry: What are you even talking about? Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 07:28, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

@Srtª PiriLimPomPom: Without a doubt, you had engaged in an edit war. I was just warning you to stop to save you from trouble. --JustBerry (talk) 16:00, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

@JustBerry: I'm pretty confident it's not a edit war if you revert consensus for lack of reliable sources, and tries to resolve it in the talk page. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 22:31, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Brazilian Portuguese

Hello, I noticed that you added information about Brazilian Portuguese speakers at Non-native pronunciations of English. Most of it was good, but there was one source that I saw didn't actually back up the claim (it was talking about Portuguese pronunciation, not how Portuguese speakers pronounce English). I can understand the logic of using this as a source, because second-language transfer leads to a lot of the characteristics of ESL speech. However, it would be original research to make this sort of inference.

I bring this up because I was wondering if another claim you added about vowels being pronounced with breathy voice was using this same logic. I'm unable to access the book cited, an introductory textbook called "Iniciação à Fonética e à Fonologia." If you still have access to this work, do you think you could you tell me if the source in question is talking about Portuguese or if it's talking about ESL speakers? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 21:50, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

@Aeusoes1: Yes, it's about Portuguese specifically, given how I found the sources on ESL speakers somewhat limited. No issue about removing the unsourced bits. :) Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 06:43, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 13

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Esclarecendo o que a fonte diz

Olá tudo bem? Eu observei uma edição sua em special:diff/677225695 com sumário dizendo How is "produced in the middle of the hard palate" not evidence for such?, eu vou respeitar a tua edição, no entanto eu gostaria de clarificar o que aquela dissertação de mestrado diz.

Aquela dissertação de mestrado que você citou, na página 18, diz que a articulação daqueles dois fonemas que ela chama de alveopalatais é a fricção que ocorre na parte medial do palato duro, conforme descrito na referência que ela usou, de autoria de sua professora orientadora (CRISTÓFARO-SILVA, 2001, p. 32) e pode-se baixar uma cópia neste link.

Tal fonte descreve a articulação desta forma:

• Alveopalatal (ou pós-alveolares): O articulador ativo é a parte anterior da língua (15) e o articulador passivo é a parte medial do palato duro (8). Exemplos: tia, dia (no dialeto carioca), chá, já.
• Palatal: O articulador ativo é a parte média da língua (16) e o articulador passivo é a parte final do palato duro (8). Exemplos: banha, palha.

Como eu lhe disse, eu vou respeitar a sua edição, eu passei aqui na sua PDU apenas para avisar que a sua própria fonte diz que o ponto de articulação dos fonemas /ch/ e /j/ e dos fonemas /nh/ /lh/ não é o mesmo, e também que em nenhuma parte da referência diz que há alguma coarticulação dorso-alveolar.

Até mais e boas contribuições.--Luizdl ^Talk 01:59, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Muito obrigad mesmo assim. E honestamente, ainda assim eu não sei se essa diferenciação está simplesmente seguindo a norma, respeitando as pesquisas realizadas quanto ao português europeu (que possui alofonia consonantal bem diferente da nossa - especialmente quanto à resistência a palatalizações que no português brasileiro podem ser traçadas a influência de línguas principalmente do tronco tupi[-guarani?], e em menor degrau de outros troncos linguísticos ameríndios), ou se vem de pesquisas próprias.

Hoje se sabe que na realidade o nh e o lh não são palatais (e que o /nosso/ nh na maioria das vezes sequer é uma pausa), e sim alvéolo-palatais, mas os descrevemos e notamos como palatais por convenção. Igualmente, tenho dúvidas se nós simplesmente não mantemos a transcrição das sibilantes e africadas como [simplesmente] pós-alveolares por convenção. Descobriu-se que o catalão possui sibilantes e africadas alvéolo-palatais, e acho que já li sobre esse também ser o caso de certas línguas e certos dialetos do norte da Itália.

Adicionalmente, não posso baixar a cópia pois não estou usando meu computador (este também está apresentando problemas e eu tenho receios). Meu computador caiu no chão e teve seu HD comprometido, então é provável que eu não possa achar a fonte adicional que eu colocaria no artigo sobre as vogais que você também reverteu. Antes disso, eu havia perdido meu histórico por causa de uma burrice que fiz no meu Chrome tentando consertar um problema (e por isso mesmo, não adicionei essa fonte secundária depois)... Basicamente havia outro PDF onde afirma-se que "o português brasileiro está centralizando /i/, /u/ e /a/" (você inclusive adicionou informação sobre isso em Portuguese phonology, no caso do português europeu), mas não dava detalhes sobre a qualidade vocálica, então eu realmente não tenho nada de conclusivo e prefiro deixar por isso mesmo. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 03:24, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Vou me prolongar quanto aos meus sentimentos pessoais sobre a questão:

Tenho esperança que uma maior atenção seria dada a essa alofonia no caso do Brasil, pois eu realmente produzo todos como alvéolo-palatais (sempre mais palatalizado que em francês/alemão/inglês/neerlandês/italiano padrão/espanhol padrão/etc., e às vezes tão palatalizado quanto em japonês - um /i/ surdo depois do 'sh' deles soa como a coda mais marcada do meu registro), e percebo a maioria dos falantes de meu dialeto nativo (carioca) fazer o mesmo; eu acho que as pessoas do Brasil norte-oriental (onde o erre gutural na coda predomina sobre o alveolar ou o retroflexo) que consistentemente palatalizam t/d (à exceção de raros empréstimos, na pronúncia cuidadosa, como T-shirt) como os fluminenses - penso em mineiros (dialetos belo-horizontino, zona-da-mata e montanhês), baianos e capixabas - não palatalizam menos que nós no x/ch, j/g, t e d, embora obviamente não dê para notar com consistência porque o coda /S/ é o que mais chama a atenção (já vi falantes de outros dialetos descreverem o alofone marcado como próximo a um "xi" rápido, em tom jocoso).

Onde o /S/ pós-alveolar ocorre em outros dialetos, creio que o que eu percebo como alvéolo-palatal predomina, inclusive pela forma como muitos falantes misturam ele com o "ti" e o "di" - não tenho evidência pra isso, mas pra mim é perceptível que essa assimilação fica mais fácil conforme o degrau de palatalização se acentua. Além disso, já li (de uma fonte ligeiramente questionável que não realmente entrou em muitos detalhes sobre fonologia pra quem é entendido, há de se admitir, e que está perdida nas profundezas dos meus posts do Facebook) que originalmente o português falado no Brasil central era mais palatalizado do que o de hoje, com /S/ alveolar laminal e /t/ e /d/ que não palatalizam/africam tendo sido mudanças posteriores originárias de ondas de migração vindas do sul e de outros países, e do prestígio da variedade paulista. Isso faz sentido, se a gente considerar que a palatalização do t/d provavelmente se irradiou a partir do Sudeste, e que no norte de Portugal as sibilantes ápico-alveolares estão estabelecidas há muito tempo (talvez sendo herança de línguas pré-latinas); no Nordeste, essa influência pode ter causado o /S/ pós-alveolar típico de certos contextos.

Então me pergunto se esta forma ainda a ser investigada (alvéolo-palatal) não seja na realidade a pronúncia brasileira conservadora, originária da nossa transição das línguas gerais para o português. Por isso mesmo, eu sinto que é uma peça importante do nosso quebra-cabeça dialetal sendo negligenciada. Inclusive porque uma das fontes que eu usei desafiam a noção de que os cariocas só começaram a "chiar" com a chegada da Corte Portuguesa. Ora, se os cariocas "chiam" desde antes, o fazemos por quais outras influências? E por que seria algo restrito a tão poucos dialetos, quando encontram-se rincões aqui e ali com palatalização da /S/ sem conexão com imigração portuguesa posterior ao século 18? Se os cariocas palatalizam mais que outros brasileiros (não apenas em mais contextos, como também supostamente produzindo consoantes mais palatalizadas), será que não seria uma resistência a uma onda /despalatalizante/ do passado, onde formas menos marcadas de palatalização deram lugar a uma pronúncia mais prestigiosa?

Se o coletivo desses estudos pretende-se a representar um retrato do português brasileiro como um todo, deveria haver uma investigação maior sobre alofonias mais obscuras, e não apenas processos fonológicos conhecidos e muito perceptíveis. Inclusive porque um traço que pode ser influenciado por ameríndios acaba sendo compreendido como sendo puramente herança europeia, e isso possui desdobramentos que vão além do entendimento dos dialetos e suas características fonético-fonológicas (ex.: o traço conservador nativo ser posto como um 'vício de linguagem' intrusivo - no caso "cacoete por estrangeirismo" -, e o traço inovativo como o que é realmente correto e ideal - tema comum na imposição de padrões à língua portuguesa do Brasil). Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 03:54, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Eu acredito que você possa pronunciar mesmo deste jeito, embora eu ache estranho. Eu abri novamente a fonte pra procurar saber o que a autora quer dizer com "parte anterior da língua (15)" e "parte média da língua (16)". Na página 30, a autora mostra através de uma figura que ambos são dorsais (assim como as vogais [i] e [ɨ]), o que é estranho, pois daria a entender que o que ela chama de alveopalatal é, na verdade, uma fricativa dorso-palatal. No entanto, neste caso ela não fala nada a respeito de uma possível coarticulação laminal, que seria o que você se refere. Em algumas línguas, como a japonesa, existe distinção entre uma fricativa dorso-palatal, escrita com a letra ひ, e uma fricativa coarticulada, com articulações laminais e dorsais, escrita com a letra し.--Luizdl ^Talk 13:27, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Me refiro ao som do kana し (particularmente antes de uma palavra com /t/ que faça o /i/ sair surdo, em japonês), em palavras como xícara, chuva, esplêndido e fosco (ou os exemplos que usei nos artigos alvéolo-palatais, com a exceção de que minha palatalização é consistente).

O kana ひ seria mais próximo de riqueza, quando uso [h] ou [x] (tenho preferência por sons uvulares como [ʁ] e [ʀ], particularmente em sílaba átona e/ou antes de [i]), e mesmo assim não é sempre tão palatalizado quanto a versão japonesa (por exemplo, o som será bem mais próximo a [x], se eu falar devagar ou com vigor). Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 19:01, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

(Pardon me if I don't understand the issue, but I'll try to answer anyway:) the fact that some source claims that a sibilant is "produced in the middle of the hard palate" is not necessarily an evidence of it being alveolo-palatal. The only (or at least the main) difference between palato-alveolars and alveolo-palatals is the amount of rising of the dorsum towards the hard palate. Plus, palato-alveolars are also sometimes labelled alveolo-palatal (Daniel Jones used that label to describe English palato-alveolars in at least one book), perhaps due to idiosyncratic vocabulary of some of the scholars.

My very limited experience with Brazilian Portuguese tells me that alveolo-palatals might very well be possible realizations of /ʃ, ʒ, t͡ʃ, d͡ʒ/, but I have no idea how widespread they are. I've certainly heard alveolo-palatals in European Portuguese, especially in coda. Peter238 (talk) 18:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what we were talking about. In my opinion, sources describe them as just palato-alveolar for convention, the same convention that leads to alveolo-palatal lateral and nasal being described as palatal, and mid central values all being transcribed under /ɐ/. That is also why I added sources that indicate that their palatalization as something further than that of Standard Italian, and that it is a place of articulation shared with our /ʎ/ and occlusive /ɲ/.

It is obvious that these allophones are a big thing, because it's hardly unnoticeable that the overwhelming majority of people in my region use it (most noticeably in coda), and other Brazilian dialects (I'm thinking coda /ʁ/ ones, as opposed to southern and western coda /ɾ/ dialects) most definitely present alveolo-palatal values for /ʃ/ and /ʒ/ (it's a bit harder to distinguish the affricates), particularly if they're produced by a person who palatalizes /t/, /d/ and /n/ before /i/.

In fact, it is hard for me to learn to accurately produce the English palato-alveolars, particularly [ʃ]. At times, either I arch my tongue as customary and it comes out too palatalized (alveolo-palatal in some manner), or I can't help but feel like I'm producing [sʲ], in the case of the position used to produce English /r/ – it's a very delicate in-between, in order to not get something too lisp-like. It is less foreign than producing a retroflex, but still it's definitely not a part of my native allophone inventary. A carioca accent with a coda [ʃ] instead of [ɕ] would certainly appear remarkable (albeit not to the point that I could describe it as "off"). I think alveolo-palatals sound (and feel) "wetter" or "fuller" in the mouth. Our pronunciation of the word "show", as compared to its original English, uses a decidedly different consonant.

This person speaks a coda /ɾ/ dialect (with a register characterized by higher palatalization, in comparison to e.g. most of Paraná), but their post-alveolar consonants sound alveolo-palatal to me (though their pronunciation of otite, at 1:56, as well as unstressed final -te and -de – primeiramente, at 0:27, sounds more of strident rather than the more common "wet" –, is noticeably less palatalized than mine would be): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp3SO__cWcM

It's rare for "coda /ʁ/" dialect-speaking Brazilians to use consonants less palatalizing than the ones used in the video above. I'd also say that alveolo-palatal production is not at all weird /anywhere/ out of southern Brazil, even in São Paulo and Mato Grosso (either original or do Sul). Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 04:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:02, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Srtª PiriLimPomPom. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

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Interview invitation from a Wikipedia researcher in the University of Minnesota

I am Weiwen Leung, a student at the University of Minnesota. I am currently conducting a study on how people on the LGBT+ Wikipedians group use and contribute to Wikipedia.

Would you be willing to answer a short 5 minute survey? If so, please email me at leung085@umn.edu. It would be helpful if you could include your Wikipedia username when emailing.

Thank you, Weiwen Weiwensg (talk) 19:31, 30 November 2016 (UTC)