Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murder of Georgios Tsibouktzakis

Murder of Georgios Tsibouktzakis

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Pr WP:NOTNEWS and WP:LASTING . Mr Tsibouktzakis is not known for anything, AFAIK, except his murder. Compare him with, say Bassem Abu Rahmeh of Bil'in (who was internationally known at the time go hid murder), then wonder why one has a Wikipedia article, why the other one doesn't? Huldra (talk) 21:31, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFF.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:48, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I looked up, Bassem Abu Rahmeh - mentioned by Nom. He was hit in the chest with a tear gas canister while participating in a protest March in Bi'lin.[1]. Tragic, but not notable. Note also that when a notable individual is murdered, we write an article about the individual. By contrast, articles about notable murders of individuals not previously notable begin Murder of..., as here, indicating that the murder, not the individual is notable. In this case, ongoing attention has been attracted by the conviction for this murder of Marwan Barghouti.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:03, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah...ongoing attention ...... by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Israel. While for Bassem Abu Rahmeh, the Israeli court conveniently looses all the evidence. Oh, and I forgot, who told us that we should be the parrots of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Israel? Huldra (talk) 22:24, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Insert nonsense reason here. The article is going to be kept despite all the policy reasons it should be deleted, and I'd like to be on the winning side this time. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:02, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:NOTNEWS and does not seem to be notable in any way. Brexit123 (talk) 22:29, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Per E.M.Gregory's reason for creating the article in the first place: it may have happened over ten years ago, but it found its way back into the news cycle again in recent days. That definitely indicates long-term notability. Could use some expansion, but otherwise, I don't see a problem with it. Cyrus the Penner (talk) 22:32, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or Merge with Marwan Barghouti. The murder has little or no independent significance. There were a few press reports at the time. Almost all the later references cited in the article are talking about Barghouti, or the Second Intifada, not this murder in particular. This NPR article is typical of the coverage. It has no lasting significance, apart from the larger conflict in which it was embedded, or the person who was convicted of it. When EMG says that this is "in the news" again, it's because the NYT recently ran an op-ed by Barghouti. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. There were a thousand Israelis and three thousand Palestinians killed in the Second Intifada. Is EMG going to create an article on each of them? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 22:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The murder has had 3 rounds of international news coverage, in 2001 when he was shot by a terrorist, in 2004 when Barghouti was convicted of the murder, and again last week.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:53, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They are not talking about the murder, they are talking about the person who was convicted; because he was an influential Palestinian leader. Read any news article in 2004; almost the entirety of the article will be about Barghouti, not the murder or the victims. Mostly, even the monk wouldn't be named. The NPR article I cited is typical in this respect. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 22:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Bassem Abu Rahmeh is covered too – the link is Bassem Ibrahim Abu Rahmah. Notability does not expire and such cases all seem to have a lasting effect and coverage. Andrew D. (talk) 23:09, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the difference is of course, that Bassem Ibrahim Abu Rahmah is not a stand alone article, it is merely a redir. And I would not object to Murder of Georgios Tsibouktzakis becoming a redir, too.Huldra (talk) 23:16, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is no significant difference. Whether a topic is a section in a larger article or a smaller separate article is just an implementation detail. Both cases are covered and there's no case for deletion of either of them. Andrew D. (talk) 23:20, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So you would be ok with making Murder of Georgios Tsibouktzakis a redir to Marwan Barghouti, then? Huldra (talk) 23:26, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your understanding of policy is idiosyncratic to say the least. When you say that "notability does not expire", aren't you only quoting half of the policy? WP:N lays down two conditions: The topic should be notable, and it should follow the WP:NOT policy. If the topic violates WP:NOTNEWS, then the second condition isn't satisfied. Besides, WP:Notability (events) specifically lays down WP:PERSISTENCE as a policy. As I tried to demonstrate above, the WP:PERSISTENCE part of the murder is entirely based on the person who was convicted. If the murderer was some low-level Fatah operator, nobody would bother to mention it, just as few of the other 1000 Israelis killed in the Second Intifada are mentioned. Secondly, there is indeed a large difference between a redirect and a separate article. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many AfDs which are closed as "redirect" or "merge" instead of "keep". The crucial difference is that in a main article all aspects of the matter can be discussed in WP:DUE proportion. Almost the entirety of coverage of this matter in WP:RS is focused on Barghouti and the Second Intifada. If one tried to rewrite this article to match the emphasis in sources, it would be a copy of the Barghouti article. So why not redirect it there? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 23:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"the other 1000 Israelis killed in the Second Intifada" — Now you've done it. We'll have 1000 new articles by tomorrow. Zero^talk 04:29, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

keep clearly notable and covered by reliable sources. In contrast the self defense killing of the rioter in bilin is mainly covered by non reliable propaganda.Icewhiz (talk) 04:41, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Judged on its own merits, I do not understand what the actual claim to notability is. The article fails to explain why it is an article. If it's been in the news recently, the article should be able to explain that with those reliable sources. If this is about Marwan Barghouti, then that should be sourced to something more substantial than this non-neutral passing mention, or this brief line which doesn't mention him by name. Grayfell (talk) 04:54, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep (1) He may be canonised as a martyr (2) the convicted murderer is very prominent in Palestinian politics. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:38, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source for him being canonised? Otherwise this seems like WP:CRYSTAL. As for Barghouti, that seems like a perfect example of WP:NOTINHERITED. Grayfell (talk) 21:02, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - When is NOTNEWS going to matter to editors creating these articles? Typical press coverage does not make it notable. Period.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 16:04, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I will reiterate what I said earlier: the murder may have happened over ten years ago, but it found its way back into the news cycle again in recent days. That definitely indicates long-term notability. And let's not forget all of the reliable sources that make up the article. Forever a warrior against wikiwashing. 03:59, 23 April 2017 (UTC)