Talk:Kolkata Derby

Edit warring / article dispute

Competitive matches, walk over derbies and newly found derbies have been included - wiki editor 70 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikieditor70 (talk • contribs) 13:52, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

@Redhotgold:, @Wikinewseditor:, @Patriotic Bengali: - you have been warned in your talk pages about the sustained three-way edit war on this article over the past few weeks. This is an unacceptable situation that needs to be resolved, preferably through discussion and consensus on this talk page.

For reference, a selection of the problem edits by the various edit warriors:

1. Redhotgold (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sample stats affected: first contested 1921, most wins 125: [1] [2] [3] [4]

2. Wikinewseditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sample stats affected: first contested 1925, most wins 123: [5] [6] [7] [8]

3. Patriotic Bengali (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sample stats affected: first contested (editor generally doesn't seem to be changing this), most wins 120: [9] [10] [11] [12]

Dl2000 (talk) 02:07, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Dl2000:, @Wikinewseditor: keeps changing derby stats without providing any reliable sources. On numerous occasions I have provided a reference for the first derby in 1921 which was subsequently deleted/ignored by Wikinewseditor. Also, the number of wins by Mohun Bagan was grossly exaggerated from 93 to 106 without proper evidence. The number of wins by East Bengal was updated from 123 to 125 to include two victories over Mohun Bagan in 1921 mentioned in the book "Cluber naam East Bengal" by Santipriya Bandypadhyay.

Incorrect information about result of first derby and head to head records

The first Derby clash took place on 28th May, 1925 at the CFC ground (Mohun Bagan Ground) where East Bengal defeated Mohun Bagan 1-0 in the Calcutta Football League. The winning goal was scored by Nepal Chakravarty.

regarding head to head results of the two team East Bengal leads with 120-88. 108 matches has been drawn. Total matches played is 316.Refer to the links of the authenticated football websites as provided below.Please do not allow incorrect edits. The link includes i-league.org which is official website of Indian football, espn, goal.com and FIFA no other sources can be more reliable.

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 11:10, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Incorrect Information

Kindly change East Bengal has won 127 matches, Mohun Bagan has won 116 matches and 118 matches ended in a draw to East Bengal has won 120 matches, Mohun Bagan has won 88 matches and 108 matches ended in a draw Dasgupta.rony (talk) 12:04, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Wrong Reference Link

goal.com and espn also put light on the same version of statistics.

Repeated addition of Incorrect Information. Need Wiki Admin to Resolve the matter.

Regarding the derby statistics. ileague.org, the official website of Indian football had already listed out the stats. Any other blog or website cannot be used as reference goal.com and espn also put light on the same version of statistics. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 06:21, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Wikieditor70 is misusing the page

Kindly see to this.. Wikieditor70 is vandalising the page. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 14:25, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Rony dasgupta is ignoring the new facts and figures which got discovered in last few months. He is giving reference details which lost its significance and correctness now.He is vandalizing the page. Wikieditor70 (talk) 18:03, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

@Wikieditor70: There is already an ongoing discussion regarding this issue, and at this moment it is highly inappropriate for you to revert back edits. This is considered edit warring and this has to either stop or you can be blocked for edit warring. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 18:24, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Inappropriate wikipedia behaviour

Disputes on wikipedia cannot be resolved by editing and re-editing a page. Any discussion should be done properly on the talk page, and a consensus has to be reached before the page can be edited. Please refer Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for proper conduct. Till that a disputed template should be put up on the page.

Ramit Mukherjee (User talk:Ramit.mukherjee.1994) 1:09, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Requesting Discussion to settle Dispute

I welcome any feedback by any football lover to settle the dispute in this page The Points I raised are

1. First Derby - First Derby was held in 28th May, 1925 at the CFC ground (Mohun Bagan Ground) where East Bengal defeated Mohun Bagan 1-0 in the Calcutta Football League. The winning goal was scored by Nepal Chakravarty. This was the first recognized derby match according to AIFF and FIFA refer to the links

2. Head to head Derby Status - According to Ileague.org till 16, Feb 2015 The two teams have met 309 times in all competitions so far.

East Bengal have won 117 times.

Mohun Bagan have won 86 times.

Drawn – 106

East Bengal Goals – 285

Mohun Bagan Goals – 233

According to Espn updated till 10 Feb, 2017 East Bengal have edged the head-to-head 120-87, with 108 matches ending in draws. Refer to the links provided. The links are from Fifa and Ileague.org, the official website of Indian football and FIFA is the parent body.

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 03:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

@Dasgupta.rony: Regarding the first derby, there is source which states that there have been matches played before 1925 between the two sides. If you read the fifa website carefully, it goes onto say, "the first major meeting between the sides took place in 1925, which does not rule out the possibility that they met before. Secondly, that it did indeed happen has been shown by sources, one being . Thirdly, the references you referred to are articles on the fifa and i-league.org websites, and not a official record books for the derby. Fourthly, in absence of any official records regarding the derby, sourced information from other credible sources cannot be discarded, specially when there is no credible source proving wrong the fact that the first derby was played in 1921. Regarding the statistics for the derby, I think the same logic applies and as long as their is no source which does indeed discard the existence of the newly found derbies, they should be allowed to exist. While responding, please respond back in this section, and do not create a new section.

Ramit Mukherjee (User talk:Ramit.mukherjee.1994) 3:29, 3 June 2017 (UTC) ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

East Bengal vs Mohun Bagan match may or may not have been played before 1925 . But East Bengal got promoted in the first division only after 1924. . Read the lines "1924 was an eventful year in the history of the club. Not only did they become Joint Champions of the Second Division". So even if there was a match played between East Bengal and Mohun Bagan that cannot be drafted in the records since match between a first division and a second division team can be an exhibition match but it's not official. Similarly matches played between ISL and I League teams are also unofficial or football teams and actors are also unofficial. East Bengal and Mohun Bagan play each other more than 10 times in an year in the form of under 15 under 17 etc. But we only note the results of the matches played by the senior teams. If we had to consider all the matches played by East Bengal and Mohun Bagan there would have been more than thousand of matches. So likely all the derby matches played cannot be included in the statistics. Ileague.org is the official website of Indian football . And FIFA is the parent body of football. Even Espn and Goal.com are bigger names in sports. So I would request let us agree on that FIFA or Ileague.org states as record. If they make modifications in the future I have no problem in abiding by it. But for the time being let us agree on what they say.. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 09:19, 3 June 2017 (UTC) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regarding the reference provided by @Ramit.mukherjee.1994: - The content itself has the line - "discounted by those following the sport because of their obscure nature" so the contributors themselves are not sure about the record hence it should not be treated as official. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 09:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I am sorry, but the fact that only matches between first division teams can be considered and nothing else, is an argument that does not seem acceptable at all. They can meet in other official competitions. If your logic is agreed to, then it basically means all matches of the English league cup and FA cup where teams from two divisions meet are not official but exhibition match. All derbies played in Calcutta football league are considered to be exhibition matches. In such case then, they should also be discarded going by your argument, which would be a blatant deletion of facts. Secondly, the information on derbies provided as new are not non-competitive derbies, they were just played in tournaments that do not exist anymore. That does not go onto belittle the importance of these derbies. Finally, what you call official and what someone else does can be of a very obscure nature. The line you quoted from the source refers to the importance of the tournaments in present day football, and not the derbies in itself.

Saying all these, I would like to request comment from other editors and I suggest we sit on it for sometime, maybe a month unless we reach consensus. Let us see what others have to say, but I would like to remind you that edit warring is not an option to settle disputes.

Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 13:14, 3 June 2017 (UTC) ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 06:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC) If matches outside first division has to be included in record then on what logic should we leave out records of all the under 17 under 19 under 15 matches between the two teams? Are these matches not organized by the parent body ? Are this mathes not official ? Then the actual derby should have been more than 1000 matches. Furthermore the discovery by Abhik Dutta which you stated as reference is subjection of validity. No football body be it AIFF or FIFA or IFA has claimed recognized the claims made by Abhik Dutta. So based on some individuals research wiki should not be edited unless the record is authorized by some recognized body of football. Also many of these matches are referred by Abhik dutta were eight sided or seven sided. They cannot be regarded as official. I have given both reference and logic and I too want unbiased editors to take final decision about the page. Till that time this page should not be allowed to edit.

RfC for validity of derby statistics

Requesting for comments on the validity of the newly discovered statistics related to the Kolkata derby and their subsequent addition to wikipedia.

Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 13:18, 3 June 2017 (UTC)