Talk:Kolkata Derby

Edit warring / article dispute

Competitive matches, walk over derbies and newly found derbies have been included - wiki editor 70 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikieditor70 (talk • contribs) 13:52, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

@Redhotgold:, @Wikinewseditor:, @Patriotic Bengali: - you have been warned in your talk pages about the sustained three-way edit war on this article over the past few weeks. This is an unacceptable situation that needs to be resolved, preferably through discussion and consensus on this talk page.

For reference, a selection of the problem edits by the various edit warriors:

1. Redhotgold (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sample stats affected: first contested 1921, most wins 125: [1] [2] [3] [4]

2. Wikinewseditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sample stats affected: first contested 1925, most wins 123: [5] [6] [7] [8]

3. Patriotic Bengali (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sample stats affected: first contested (editor generally doesn't seem to be changing this), most wins 120: [9] [10] [11] [12]

Dl2000 (talk) 02:07, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Dl2000:, @Wikinewseditor: keeps changing derby stats without providing any reliable sources. On numerous occasions I have provided a reference for the first derby in 1921 which was subsequently deleted/ignored by Wikinewseditor. Also, the number of wins by Mohun Bagan was grossly exaggerated from 93 to 106 without proper evidence. The number of wins by East Bengal was updated from 123 to 125 to include two victories over Mohun Bagan in 1921 mentioned in the book "Cluber naam East Bengal" by Santipriya Bandypadhyay.

Incorrect information about result of first derby and head to head records

The first Derby clash took place on 28th May, 1925 at the CFC ground (Mohun Bagan Ground) where East Bengal defeated Mohun Bagan 1-0 in the Calcutta Football League. The winning goal was scored by Nepal Chakravarty.

regarding head to head results of the two team East Bengal leads with 120-88. 108 matches has been drawn. Total matches played is 316.Refer to the links of the authenticated football websites as provided below.Please do not allow incorrect edits. The link includes i-league.org which is official website of Indian football, espn, goal.com and FIFA no other sources can be more reliable.

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 11:10, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Rony dasgupta is giving false information. He is ignoring newly discovered facts n figures of kolkata. The reference which he is giving has lost relevance his mail mail id should immediately be blocked Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:06, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Rony dasgupta is mis guiding us, where the new facts got published in several newspapers, magazines and books. His id must immediately be permanently locked Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

@Wikieditor70: I have given relevant source and logic for details. Can you please give me one source where the new stat you are puttin has been recognized by any fotball body ? Dasgupta.rony (talk) 08:44, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Incorrect Information

Kindly change East Bengal has won 127 matches, Mohun Bagan has won 116 matches and 118 matches ended in a draw to East Bengal has won 120 matches, Mohun Bagan has won 88 matches and 108 matches ended in a draw Dasgupta.rony (talk) 12:04, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Wrong Reference Link

goal.com and espn also put light on the same version of statistics.

Rony dasgupta is giving old references, which has no value as on date Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 10:59, 4 June 2017 (UTC)@Wikieditor70: The post on espn.in is on 10th February, 2017. It may be that you are putting up the correct statistics but to verify that we at least need a confirmation from some relevent sports body like FIFA IFA AIFF or some good worldwide sports websites like ESPN or Star. Unless that has been done the new statistics cannot be verified. So would request you to wait for that time till some sports body confirms the statistics you are putting up and before that time please do not edit the page.

Repeated addition of Incorrect Information. Need Wiki Admin to Resolve the matter.

Regarding the derby statistics. ileague.org, the official website of Indian football had already listed out the stats. Any other blog or website cannot be used as reference goal.com and espn also put light on the same version of statistics. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 06:21, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Rony Dasgupta is giving old reference details which has lost its value as on date, post discovery of new facts n figures in kolkata derby Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:17, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Wikieditor70 is misusing the page

Kindly see to this.. Wikieditor70 is vandalising the page. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 14:25, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Rony dasgupta is ignoring the new facts and figures which got discovered in last few months. He is giving reference details which lost its significance and correctness now.He is vandalizing the page. Wikieditor70 (talk) 18:03, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

@Wikieditor70: There is already an ongoing discussion regarding this issue, and at this moment it is highly inappropriate for you to revert back edits. This is considered edit warring and this has to either stop or you can be blocked for edit warring. Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 18:24, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 06:40, 4 June 2017 (UTC) @Wikieditor70: There is an ongoing discussion. Kindly take part to it. Please do not edit the page. You edited the page again without taking part in the discussion. Please discuss to resolve the issue. Reverting back the edits will not lead anywhere.

Inappropriate wikipedia behaviour

Disputes on wikipedia cannot be resolved by editing and re-editing a page. Any discussion should be done properly on the talk page, and a consensus has to be reached before the page can be edited. Please refer Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for proper conduct. Till that a disputed template should be put up on the page.

Ramit Mukherjee (User talk:Ramit.mukherjee.1994) 1:09, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Ramit mukherjee. Here Rony dasgupta is ignoring newly discovered facts and figures. His mail id should immediately be blocked Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:12, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 08:55, 4 June 2017 (UTC) The page has been marked as disputed and @Wikieditor70: has been asked to take part in the discussion. Inspite of that he has been continuously editing the page without taking any part in the discussion. This cannot take place. I have tried my level best to provide sources and logic for my claims and Wikieditor has been continuously editing the page and he is in fact claiming that I should be blocked. I had been over and over providing facts. This cannot happen.

Requesting Discussion to settle Dispute

I welcome any feedback by any football lover to settle the dispute in this page The Points I raised are

1. First Derby - First Derby was held in 28th May, 1925 at the CFC ground (Mohun Bagan Ground) where East Bengal defeated Mohun Bagan 1-0 in the Calcutta Football League. The winning goal was scored by Nepal Chakravarty. This was the first recognized derby match according to AIFF and FIFA refer to the links

2. Head to head Derby Status - According to Ileague.org till 16, Feb 2015 The two teams have met 309 times in all competitions so far.

East Bengal have won 117 times.

Mohun Bagan have won 86 times.

Drawn – 106

East Bengal Goals – 285

Mohun Bagan Goals – 233

According to Espn updated till 10 Feb, 2017 East Bengal have edged the head-to-head 120-87, with 108 matches ending in draws. Refer to the links provided. The links are from Fifa and Ileague.org, the official website of Indian football and FIFA is the parent body.

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 03:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

@Dasgupta.rony: Regarding the first derby, there is source which states that there have been matches played before 1925 between the two sides. If you read the fifa website carefully, it goes onto say, "the first major meeting between the sides took place in 1925, which does not rule out the possibility that they met before. Secondly, that it did indeed happen has been shown by sources, one being . Thirdly, the references you referred to are articles on the fifa and i-league.org websites, and not a official record books for the derby. Fourthly, in absence of any official records regarding the derby, sourced information from other credible sources cannot be discarded, specially when there is no credible source proving wrong the fact that the first derby was played in 1921. Regarding the statistics for the derby, I think the same logic applies and as long as their is no source which does indeed discard the existence of the newly found derbies, they should be allowed to exist. While responding, please respond back in this section, and do not create a new section.

Ramit Mukherjee (User talk:Ramit.mukherjee.1994) 3:29, 3 June 2017 (UTC) ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

East Bengal vs Mohun Bagan match may or may not have been played before 1925 . But East Bengal got promoted in the first division only after 1924. . Read the lines "1924 was an eventful year in the history of the club. Not only did they become Joint Champions of the Second Division". So even if there was a match played between East Bengal and Mohun Bagan that cannot be drafted in the records since match between a first division and a second division team can be an exhibition match but it's not official. Similarly matches played between ISL and I League teams are also unofficial or football teams and actors are also unofficial. East Bengal and Mohun Bagan play each other more than 10 times in an year in the form of under 15 under 17 etc. But we only note the results of the matches played by the senior teams. If we had to consider all the matches played by East Bengal and Mohun Bagan there would have been more than thousand of matches. So likely all the derby matches played cannot be included in the statistics. Ileague.org is the official website of Indian football . And FIFA is the parent body of football. Even Espn and Goal.com are bigger names in sports. So I would request let us agree on that FIFA or Ileague.org states as record. If they make modifications in the future I have no problem in abiding by it. But for the time being let us agree on what they say.. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 09:19, 3 June 2017 (UTC) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regarding the reference provided by @Ramit.mukherjee.1994: - The content itself has the line - "discounted by those following the sport because of their obscure nature" so the contributors themselves are not sure about the record hence it should not be treated as official. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 09:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I am sorry, but the fact that only matches between first division teams can be considered and nothing else, is an argument that does not seem acceptable at all. They can meet in other official competitions. If your logic is agreed to, then it basically means all matches of the English league cup and FA cup where teams from two divisions meet are not official but exhibition match. All derbies played in Calcutta football league are considered to be exhibition matches. In such case then, they should also be discarded going by your argument, which would be a blatant deletion of facts. Secondly, the information on derbies provided as new are not non-competitive derbies, they were just played in tournaments that do not exist anymore. That does not go onto belittle the importance of these derbies. Finally, what you call official and what someone else does can be of a very obscure nature. The line you quoted from the source refers to the importance of the tournaments in present day football, and not the derbies in itself.

Saying all these, I would like to request comment from other editors and I suggest we sit on it for sometime, maybe a month unless we reach consensus. Let us see what others have to say, but I would like to remind you that edit warring is not an option to settle disputes.

Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 13:14, 3 June 2017 (UTC) ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dasgupta.rony (talk) 06:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC) If matches outside first division has to be included in record then on what logic should we leave out records of all the under 17 under 19 under 15 matches between the two teams? Are these matches not organized by the parent body ? Are this mathes not official ? Then the actual derby should have been more than 1000 matches. Furthermore the discovery by Abhik Dutta which you stated as reference is subjection of validity. No football body be it AIFF or FIFA or IFA has recognized the claims made by Abhik Dutta. So based on some individuals research wiki should not be edited unless the record is authorized by some recognized body of football. Also many of these matches are referred by Abhik dutta were eight sided or seven sided. They cannot be regarded as official. I have given both reference and logic and I too want unbiased editors to take final decision about the page. Till that time this page should not be allowed to edit. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ok, let's be clear, we are not talking about unofficial matches here, matches in the coochbehar cup semifinal and Darbhanga shield can be considered unofficial, simply because the tournament doesn't exist today is a farcical argument. Secondly, there is no official book of records for the Kolkata Derby, neither is there an organisation that validates records of the derby. Abhik Dutta's claims are validated in itself by newspaper reports from the past and logically makes no sense to ignore those statistics. Also for a matter of fact, the records claimed by you includes friendly matches and matches from other tournaments which are now not in the fray. Going by all this, it makes absolute logical sense to keep the derby figures at 361 matches with EB (127), MB (116), and draw (118). You have to realise and appreciate the fact, that not providing information for this matches is a blatant disregard of facts, something which I believe does not adhere to wikipedia policies. There is proof that these matches happened, and the only way it can be disregarded is if you can show evidence that the claims are false and the matches did not happen, otherwise we will just be omitting history to suit our own needs. Furthermore, the i-league and fifa website links provided by you are featured articles, and not official record books, as you claim. Secondly, if you look at the dates of this articles, they are much earlier than when the new derbies were discovered. In such a scenario, keeping in my mind that the new derby discoveries are more recent, it logically makes sense to use them as updated derby statistics.

Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 18:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC) ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think you did not understood my last point at all. Matches are played between East Bengal and Mohun Bagan in Under 19 under 16 under 13 format every year. But do we keep changinging the records after each of those matches ? Even though these matches are organised by AIFF itself.The answer is strickly no, We only add records of senior first division matches. Now, if AIFF organises a blood donation camp and East Bengal and Mohun Bagan plays a 5 sided match will we add that stat? I suppose No. Similarly East Bengal may have played matches before 1925 and between 1926 to 1942. But it is known to football fans that East Bengal was not playing first division at that time. So these matches cannot be added to record as matches between a first division team and a second division team cannot be added to a head to head record. And regarding validation of Abhik Dutta's research. The newspaper or websites don't validate that. The newspaper only reported the findings of Abhik Dutta. The validation can be done by a sports body. I agree that there is not central agencies who have validated the match result but in sites like ileague.org which is a website of parent body we had a head to head record and before that is being edited or there is a new post by them we should not give much preference to individual contributions. I am not saying that matches did not happen let's stick to that, it is very important but my point is those matches lacks credibility to be added as head to head statistics. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 00:18, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

RfC for validity of derby statistics

Requesting for comments on the validity of the newly discovered statistics related to the Kolkata derby and their subsequent addition to wikipedia.

Ramit.mukherjee.1994 (talk) 13:18, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Ramit Mukherjee.....Rony Dasgupta is deliberately ignoring the newly discovered facts and figures of kolkata derby page. Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:15, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

If websites run by parent bodies like ileague.org or Fifa.com or major sport websites Espn.in or Goal.com puts up the new statistics in any of their post. I will fully accept the new statistics. Till then wiki page should have the records as states in these websites. Wiki cannot run on views of each individual researcher. That is clear violation of wiki policies. I would request everyone to wait for the time until any renown sports body or global sports websites validate the new findings. Dasgupta.rony (talk) 02:14, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

References

http://www.sportstarlive.com/football/the-kolkata-derby-stats-add-intrigue-to-the-baganeb-rivalry/article9534426.ece Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

http://www.sportstarlive.com/football/the-kolkata-derby-stats-add-intrigue-to-the-baganeb-rivalry/article9534426.ece Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:21, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

http://epaper.thestatesman.com/m/1226846/Dainik-Statesman/31st-May-2017#issue/10/1 Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:25, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

http://epaper.thestatesman.com/m/1226846/Dainik-Statesman/31st-May-2017#issue/10/1 Wikieditor70 (talk) 08:25, 4 June 2017 (UTC)