Talk:Cadillac Fleetwood

There needs to be ONE Article covering 60 Special, Fleetwood, Fleetwood 60 Special, Fleetwood Brougham, Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham, and Fleetwood. All of these names refer to the SAME model over time (with the partial exception of the FWD abominations of 1985-1992-93). Cadillacmike (talk) 14:43, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Slaughter of 1997

I removed a reference to the supposed "slaughter of 1997", as the article created on that subject was previously deleted as unverifiable material. -Colin Kimbrell 15:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Nomenclature

there is an error in this article. the RWD D-body car wasn't simply known as "cadillac brougham" from 87-92, it was called "fleetwood brougham" right up until the redesign in 1993. the front wheel drive fleetwood and deville were also still produced in 1993. the fleetwood name was also used on some special deville based FWD limos in 1998.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.117.56.201 (talk) 20:32, 25 October 2006

This is not an error. The "Fleetwood" name was only used on the FWD C-body version from 1987 to 1992. The RWD D-body car was called simply "Brougham" during those years. In 1993, the "Fleetwood" was ONLY used on the RWD D-body car. It's confusing, I know, but check your Cadillac sales literature from those years. weetbixkid 03:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Consistency in style

Is it d'Elegance or D'Elegance (or perhaps something else)? Whichever it is, the article should use one convention throughout. --Schnaz 21:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Generation X Wheelbase

The 1971-1976 Cadillac Fleetwood did not share its chassis with the Calais/Deville. Its wheelbase was actually 133 inches long. Furthermore the wheelbase of the 1971-1976 Fleetwood 75 was 151.5 inches long.--Sadowski (talk) 02:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Improvements

Hello everyone

I am starting a clean up project on this article and will making comprehensive modifications and additions to this article. Senators^{Talk | Contribs} 10:56, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Fleetwood is a Coachbuilder for Cadillac and not a Series of Cadillac.

This is the fundamental problem with this webpage. There's no such thing as a Cadillac Fleetwood. Over time I'm going to attempt to rewrite this page and the Fleetwood Brougham page and I expect huge resistance. That's why I both removed/introduced Fleetwood nomenclature on other pages, in a vain effort to open your eyes.

This will take some time. But I'm patient. History and the facts will win out.

Sadowski (talk) 05:25, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I would recommend reaching consensus before engaging in something which, as you are already aware, will meet resistance. I would suggest making a minimum of disruptive edits until you have some support, and taking such a combative stance as this is not the best way of going about it. As a matter of fact, I am not even sure what you are trying to change?  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 18:38, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I've Already done it. According to the Standard Catalog of American Cars 1976-1999 there was in fact a Cadillac Fleetwood and Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham series during 1977-1996 only. I've made the initial changes to accord with those facts.

Sadowski (talk) 04:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

So according to just one source you eliminate a whole series of models? What about American Cars of the 1960s By John Gunnell, which discusses the Fleetwood Brougham in the 65, 68 and 69 model years? What about Standard Catalog of Cadillac 1903-2005 by John Gunnel, which has extensive coverage of Fleetwood models in the 1960s and 1970s - models that were eliminated in your edits? This definitely needs further discussion - your reasons are unclear right now. --Biker Biker (talk) 04:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The Fleetwood models you allude to are already covered by their respective series. This was all duplicate content and it is rather confusing. There was only one separate Cadillac Fleetwood series and that was from 1985-1996. Does Gunnell contradict any of the things I have said? If so he is completely wrong. (Personally I think you need to totally reread Gunnell.) I shall refer you to any of the Cadillac data books from the period, which the Krause Publications Standard Catalogs of American Cars have meticulously researched. I am changing things back. Thank You.

Sadowski (talk) 06:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I've inserted new content to make my case more clear. This contributes 27 out of the 32 existing references (all great reading). I shall persevere until this page ultimately reflects the truth. If this struggle takes days, weeks, months or years I shall be here. Thank You.

Sadowski (talk) 07:04, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I made a modest change tonight. If you like the changes I've made to Fleetwood Brougham you should like the changes I'll make to Fleetwood.

Sadowski (talk) 06:04, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I made drastic changes since last night. Personally I like the look of it.

Sadowski (talk) 06:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

The entire Fleetwood set of articles is completely disjointed. The naming isn't even correct. The Fleetwood name ALWAYS came BEFORE the series number. It was always Fleetwood Series 60 Special not the other way around, and the same goes for the Brougham options, e.g. Fleetwood Brougham, or Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham. There was also only one model line from the late 50s up to 1985 when the front wheel drive split off of the C body came. From 1985-1992 there were both FWD and RWD "Fleetwood" models. Confusing to say the least. but later unified as RWD for the last four years (1993-96)as Fleetwood with an optional Brougham package.

Someone with catalogs and / or Cadillac model reference material needs to sort through these disjointed articles and bring them together under a SINGLE article that should be named "Cadillac Fleetwood, 60 special, and Brougham", because these all refer to the SAME car model at different points in time and sometimes were used together (and for a short period, 1971-76, all three names were used for the one model in the lineup. I have brochures from 1964-2013 to verify this and have the material from 1958-63 showing the model naming of the various cars.

Instead of citing books written many of which contain errors, how about reading the original Cadillac service sales and marketing documents. If you do you will notice that the Fleetwood series goes back to at least 1964 when it was superimposed on the existing ElDorado and 60 Special models. Some time later (in the 1970s Eldorado was separated from the Fleetwood series thus going back to the 4 door sedan only.

The breakdown in Series and model names by year range:

1930s (or 40s) thru mid-late 50s there was one model, the "60 Special". During parts of this time it had a separate longer wheelbase and at other times the same wheelbase as DeVilles & series 62.

From about 1957 or so thru 1965: "Fleetwood 60 Special", thru 1964 same WB as DeVilles, in 1965 separate longer WB, also a Brougham "Option Package" was offered in 1965, but it was NOT a separate model (there was only one sales code of "M").

1966-1970: Fleetwood 60 Special OR Fleetwood Brougham (sales code M or P)

1971-76: Fleetwood 60 Special Brougham. This was the only time that all three "names (Fleetwood, 60 Special, and Brougham) were all used together).

1977-1984: Fleetwood Brougham

1985-1992 Split between FWD 60 Special and RWD Fleetwood Brougham and / or Brougham. This was the ONLY time that the model name "Brougham" was used Without Fleetwood being in front of it.

1993-96: RWD Fleetwood with "Brougham" option package, but not a separate model. I believe there was one final year, 1993, for the front wheel drive "60 Special" model, but it didn't have Fleetwood in front of it. I don't have the catalogs in frnt of me but I have them (ALL of them).

And lastly, Fleetwood WAS a coach builder for Cadillac, but was acquired and became a division of GM before WW2. The Fleetwood body plant made all Fleetwood bodies up to and including 1970. I had a 1970 Fleetwood Brougham and its body plate and door sills had "Body by Fleetwood" on them. Fleetwood also made the all leather interiors of DeVilles and ElDorados in the 1960s. My 1968 DeVille Convertible is one of them.

Cadillacmike (talk) 14:19, 5 September 2016 (UTC) A couple things. As I noted above while the name of the car(one or two models) changed along with time, from the 30s up to 1970,the Fleetwood 60 Special and Fleetwood Brougham where the SAME car with same wheelbase, engine, and most interior options. Broughams had a few additional trim items and interior features not offered on 60 Specials but otherwise they were the same Fleetwood produced body. In face soe some of those years there was no separate "Brougham model, only a Brougham option package (1965). In 1971, since the Fleetwood Brougham was outselling the Fleetwood 60 Special by more than 10 to 1, both models were combined into the "Fleetwood 60 special Brougham.

A SINGLE article covering the first "60 Special" in the 1030s through the last Fleetwood Brougham in 1996 should have all the cars in it. Not the large gaps and holes that the 4 articles have at present.

Again, I recommend that the article be named "Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special and Brougham" I can contribute sales data, specc, etc from 1958-1996 and the various points in time when the naming conventions changed, etc.

Cadillacmike (talk) 22:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Sadowski, Mr.choppers, Cadillacmike, CZmarlin, Marine3800, et al. I've been making few changes to this article that hopefully will bring it closer to where it seems to be headed, based on what I've read you saying in the thread above. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that there is a general popular consensus (in the public mind) that the Cadillac Fleetwood is more than just the 1984-1996 models, in fact most people would think of earlier eras when they think of Fleetwood. I know that anyone who grew up before the 1980s viewed Fleetwoods as America's premier aspirational vehicles. There was nothing more awe-inspiring than see a big Cadillac Fleetwood drive up (or, better yet, get a chance to ride in the back seat—what legroom!). I would wager that when most people think of Cadillac Fleetwood, they think of those top-of-the line 4-dr, factory-equipped, extended-wheelbase cars, whether the Sixty Special, Broughham, or the 75 factory limousine from the those "golden eras" when the cars were really big. I also think that there is a general popular perception that the Fleetwood brand name went into decline after the 1970s, even probably after 1976. I think that we should re-build this article to better conform the popular perception of what Fleetwood is. Here are some thoughts:

• I think that we should merge all of the articles about the various 4-dr Cadillac Fleetwood models (i.e. Cadillac Fleetwood Sixty Special, Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham, as well as the 75 limo.) into this article, having full profiles on each of these models, along with the 1984-1996—making one big Fleetwood article here.
• We don't have to have full profiles of the Eldorados carrying the "Fleetwood..." name here. Their profiles could stay in the El Dorado article (but we could keep casual mention of them here).
• Personally, I think that full profiles of Cadillac Fleetwood Series 75 4-dr sedans/limousines should have a place here, because they carried the Fleetwood nameplate and were fully factory-made and equipped.[1]
• Incidentally, Cadillac made a Fleetwood 75 limo in the 1980s and early 90s.[2]
• Commercial chassis Cadillacs could stay in the 70 Series article, because they were outfitted by independent shops as custom limos, hearses, ambulances, etc. I do not know if they carried the "Fleetwood" name or not, but as custom builds, they seem to be in a separate category altogether.

So, what do you think? Garagepunk66 (talk) 05:00, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that all of these cars should be merged. They are disparate vehicles. A section mentioning how the name has been used earlier should suffice.  Mr.choppers | ✎  05:07, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Mr.choppers. I'm open to keeping it in the framework it is—I'd only be for greater change if that is what people want. We could keep it as is, but try to make the background more clear. I added some material with more pre-1984 background, but I was careful to keep the article in its post-1984 framework. So, perhaps we could develop it along those lines. Garagepunk66 (talk) 05:14, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

One more question for Mr.choppers. I believe that the 1992-1996 RWD Fleetwood had the word "...Brougham" in the title. Should the full profile of that model be moved over to the Fleetwood Brougham article? It is possible that the 1984-1991 models were the only ones to be called just "Fleetwood". I know that this is nit-pickey, but I want to make sure we're getting everything right. Garagepunk66 (talk) 06:17, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

A couple things. As I noted above while the name of the car(one or two models) changed along with time, from the 30s up to 1970,the Fleetwood 60 Special and Fleetwood Brougham where the SAME car with same wheelbase, engine, and most interior options. Broughams had a few additional trim items and interior features not offered on 60 Specials but otherwise they were the same Fleetwood produced body. In face soe some of those years there was no separate "Brougham model, only a Brougham option package (1965). In 1971, since the Fleetwood Brougham was outselling the Fleetwood 60 Special by more than 10 to 1, both models were combined into the "Fleetwood 60 special Brougham.

A SINGLE article covering the first "60 Special" in the 1030s through the last Fleetwood Brougham in 1996 should have all the cars in it. Not the large gaps and holes that the 4 articles have at present.

Again, I recommend that the article be named "Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special and Brougham" I can contribute sales data, specs, etc from 1958-1996 and the various points in time when the naming conventions changed, etc.

As noted, I have ALL THE CATALOGS from 1964-2013 AND Technical Model / Sales data from 1958-1975. So I have full date from 1958 on and before 1958, there was a single model, the "60 Special, with a body by GM's Fleetwood division, thus making it a Fleetwood 60 Special.

The hardest part is to get these merged. I think the longest article should be used and the intervening year / model gaps be filled from the other articles until the one article has all the info in it and then the other three can be removed from the site. I'm not too good at getting pictures inserted in the correct places, but I can merge all the article text if folks are ok with it.

Cadillacmike (talk) 22:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

literature

Milton, a character in Middlesex by Eugenides, drives a car named Fleetwood (by Cadillac as it is told). --13Peewit (talk) 15:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)