Talk:Polyvagal theory

Interesting, no mention as yet of the originator of the theory, Stephen W. Porges, or links to the source papers. I'm adding this. gaia9 (talk) 20:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, in the current description, there is no mention of porges's revolutionary assertion of the 3rd branch of the Autonomic Nervous System, the Social Engagement System. There is no clear explanation why it is labeled "Polyvagal", and there is no link to the Autonomic Nervous System page (and vice-a-versa]. I am thankful to see it even have an entry in WP. Gheemaker (talk) 04:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

• I'm going to split the Reference section so that it has an External Link section + adding an interview of Stephen Porges Ph.D. + attempting to add etymology. This needs some work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gheemaker (talk • contribs) 05:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for rewrite

Proposing rewrite for Functional organization of the ANS according to Polyvagal Theory. I feel that the current article is vague about how the classical and Polyvagal model of the NS looks like. I feel we should mention the proposal of a 3rd ANS division/branch called the Social Nervous System or Social Engagement system based on the following references:

• Porges, S. W. (1993, October/November). The infant’s sixth sense: Awareness and regulation of bodily processes. Zero to Three 14(2),12–16.
• Porges, S. W. (1995). Orienting in a defensive world: Mammalian modifications of our evolutionary heritage. A Polyvagal Theory. Psychophysiology, 32, 301–318.
• Porges, S. W. (1997). Emotion: An evolutionary by-product of the neural regulation of the autonomic nervous system. In C. S. Carter, B. Kirk-patrick, & I. I. Lederhendler (Eds.), The integrative neurobiology of affiliation.Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 807, 62–77.
• Porges, S. W. (1998). Love: An emergent property of the mammalian autonomic nervous system. Psychoneuroendocrinology, 23, 837–861.
• Especially Porges, S. W. (2001). The Polyvagal Theory: Phylogenetic substrates of a social nervous system. International Journal of Psychophysiology, 42, 123–146.

That we make a comparison between both models depicting the differences.
For example, here is a way I propose to augment the 2nd paragraph: Functional organization of the autonomic nervous system is thought to be phylogenetically hierarchical, with response strategies to threat dictated by the newest neural structures first (aka Social Engagement System), then falling back on older structures (Sympathetic and Parasympathetic accordingly) when a given response strategy fails. Therefore, polyvagal theory predicts that the NA branch will inhibit acceleratory sympathetic nervous system (SNS) input to the heart when attention and social engagement are adaptive, and withdraw this inhibitory influence when fighting or fleeing are adaptive.[1]
Then at some point throw in mention of Parasympathetic toward the end. Any comments? Gheemaker (talk) 07:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

criticism?!

even stephen porges himself when presenting his theory on youtube mentions that it is rather "controversial" and that some people consider it "bad science". in the wiki-article about the "Freezing behavior" it is not even mentioned... so please explain the arguments of the critics!

to my mind the linkage of the ventral vagus system (how is its existence and action shown?) to later stages of the development of living beings seems not plausible, because even the most primitive cartilaginous fish or a (more sophisticated) reptile needs a mechanism to get ready for recreational activities (in situations without danger, like feeding, resting, mating...). so there must already be this basic function of the vagus system, not just the "dorsal freezing" stuff...

further it would seem to me much more logical that an extreme sympathetic reaction causes freeze than a vagal reaction. after all it does not seem to be a complete relaxation, but rather a total cramp, which seems to be sympathicotone in nature...

so the article should explain how the existence and the actions of the two supposed vagal systems are demonstrated?! thanx! --HilmarHansWerner (talk) 11:54, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Porges has explained the Polyvagal Nerve Function Better Than Any Other

The vagus nerve with all it's complexities needs a clear explanation and Stephen Porges has provided it. The only reason why this theory could possibly be considered "controversial" is that the explanation of why trauma affects people the way it does conflicts with the still unproved-after-a-century hypothesis that all mental illness has genetic causes. Animals, especially mammals, have been found to have altered stress responses as a result of trauma. As an example, if I remember correctly, it was Pavlov's dogs, locked in their cages and unable to swim to escape the flooding of a close-by river who survived but demonstrated ongoing evidence of trauma. The evidence is there--look it up. Note: I helped edit G. Bateson's Double Bind Theory over 15 years ago signed Margaret9Mary 205.167.120.201 (talk) 20:35, 17 April 2019 (UTC)Margaret9Mary but can't remember my password. Or I could sign myself, survivortiredofscientistsindenial.

It seems to me, from a very cursory understanding, that the problem with Porges ideas is that he's making very specific cladistic statements that say that mammals are very distinct and more advanced/nuanced in our vagus expression than "reptiles" (note that reptile isn't even a clade!). This seems very implausible, and adding extra unfounded cruft on top of his theories sounds like pseudo-science where one tries to make your own theory sound more legitimate by associating it (falsely or speculatively) with an established field. Dropping this cladistic hypothesis seems like it would make Porges more credible... --Boxed (talk) 20:02, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Brain-Body Center

A search of the internet and of Google Books indicates that the Brain-Body Center at UIC barely exists and has no notability. At a glance, it appears that only Porges and his wife were involved in it. There is no reason any Wikipedia page should mention it. Daask (talk) 20:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Simply observing

Flagged as dubious:

While other brain areas known to be involved in fear responses (e. g. the amygdala and periaqueductal gray) are mentioned by Porges, he does not integrate them into the description of his own hypothesized systems. Simply observing an anatomical link between two areas of the body is not sufficient for explaining complex social and emotional behaviours as Porges broadly attempts to do.

My own take is that if Porges has successfully identified the principal pathway mediating between the underlying neurology and the observed physiology and sociology, he has done enough to quality as a legitimate first cut. Neurology is so messy in general that it's hard to exceed this standard.

Recently it as discovered that women with severe spinal injuries can achieve orgasm by stimulating the vagus nerve alone, despite it not being obvious to the women themselves that this pathway continues to function in this capacity (they had to be instructed in order to discover this).

It's such a common crock in academia to effectively take the position that your enemy's success doesn't count for much because it didn't arrive whole cloth, trailing clouds of meticulous and irrefutable glory. Hardly anything in such a difficult field unfolds in first instance to this ludicrous standard.

I'm new to this topic, but the main claim of this theoretical insight seems to be that the vagus nerve is the principal locus of a functional dichotomy with gross manifestations in the clinical setting. The criticisms would then be that:

• it's not the principal locus in any meaningful sense (too much else is always involved)
• there is no such functional neurological dichotomy
• there is something superficially akin to a neurological dichotomy, but it's actually an oligochotomy
• the clinical manifestations—if any—are too woolly to be of any real use, observationally
• there is no such downstream psychological dichotomy
• there is something superficially akin to a psychological dichotomy, but it's actually an oligochotomy
• suggested causal correlation between the neurological dichotomy and the psychological dichotomy are vastly overstated

Etc.

The legitimate standard of a contribution here is not that all of these claims are true, but that any principal claim is true. If all that finally remains is that there as a functional dichotomy of this general tenor (even though the mechanisms are not as postulate) or that there is a psychological dichotomy of this general tenor (even through the mooted neurophysical causality is all wet) then this bundle of conjecture contains a substantive contribution.

The other valid critique would be that Porges has merely flung a mud-ball of hunches at the wall, hoping to take credit for whatever sticks, while leaving others to do the hard work of making specific claims that finally prove out. Then the complaint would be that this conjectural bundle doesn't rise to the standard of a research program worthy of investigatory primacy over any other hunch-set within the discipline.

I'm suggesting by way of these remarks that the criticism section needs to be written more broadly, with fewer of these overused and abused academic rabbit punches as quoted above. — MaxEnt 16:08, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

brief, lay-friendly short definition of Polyvagal Theory needed on Wikipedia page

PVT is being discussed internationally at many levels, in many disciplines, and an understandable definition on Wikipedia is needed for lay persons. The current short 'definition' actually offers no definition at all but rather gives an opinionated negative view which is anything but objective, saying it's a 'collection of claims' that are 'not endorsed', and uses the message template above the definition to place it in the category of 'fringe theories'. In reality, PVT is cited in over 8,800 scientific papers (on Google Scholar) and is integrated into the work of the leading experts in the field of psychotherapy (Bessel van der Kolk, Peter Levine, Dan Siegel, etc.). A simplified and updated introductory definition is long overdue.

I'd like to suggest the following:

"Polyvagal Theory, first presented by Dr. Stephen Porges in 1994, proposes a hierarchy of the autonomic nervous system based on evolutionary development. The theory is multi-disciplinary, connecting aspects of neuroscience, psychology and phylogenetics. In lay terms, Polyvagal Theory describes how the brain’s unconscious sense of safety/danger impacts our emotions and behaviors. It describes three behavioral responses - 1) relaxation/social engagement, 2) fight/flight, 3) shut down/immobilization - which can be unconsciously activated as we detect safety/threat in our immediate environment. The theory argues that the state of one's nervous system should be a primary consideration in mental health and medical treatment. Polyvagal Theory is cited in over 8,000 peer-reviewed scientific papers and is integrated into numerous treatments in the field of trauma; however, it is not widely known in the broader community of traditional allopathic medicine."

I also suggest removing the current template message re “fringe theories" that sits above the introduction. How can we call a theory which is cited in 8,800 scholarly papers 'fringe'?Ian Oelsner (talk) 18:50, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Ian Oelsner (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Ian Oelsner, Explaining the premise more clearly would be good (provided any changes are based on reliable, independent sources which are currently missing from your proposal), but we must be careful not to create the impression that this is a widely accepted theory, because it clearly is not. MrOllie (talk) 01:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)