Talk:Uğur Şahin

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Ethnicity in the lead

Similar to the page on Şahin's wife and business partner Özlem Türeci, the nationality has been changed back and forth a few times, so I'm going to start a discussion here if anyone feels the need for one. As per WP:ETHNICITY, "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." It is, of course, perfectly within the article's scope to mention his Turkish roots - but under Early life or Personal life, not in the lead. --Tserton (talk) 22:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There seem to be a lot of nationalists on both sides who want to "claim" Şahin as their own, given the large number of edits by new accounts. The NYT article identifying him as "Turkish" contradicts every other source on the topic (e.g. [1], [2], [3]), which makes it likely it's referring to his ethnicity, not citizenship - but it's unclear. It's quite possible that his citizenship isn't public information and all these news outlets are just guessing. (It'd be a super weird and completely irrelevant question to ask in an interview anyway.) If more contradictory sources emerge, we might need to remove his nationality entirely as per WP:Conflicting sources. It might be best to wait for things to calm down and the public interest to subside in order to avoid a full-blown edit war. For now, I'm going to revert the current state of the article (which identifies him as just "Turkish") to Turkish-German. I'd encourage all the users tempted to revert and re-revert to join in discussing here before doing so, though!--Tserton (talk) 01:04, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

+1. As long as we don’t have clear proof that he identifies as „Turkish“ although he now has only the German citizenship, we should speak of „German (with Turkish descent)“. The same with his wife. The current phrasing is misleading. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 20:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Most Turks in Germany have dual citizenship. Therefore I think "Turkish-German" can be adopted as the default term in this context unless proven otherwise, i.e. there is a reliable source showing that the person in question has only German citizenship, in which case it is a matter of ethnic origin, which might be Turkish or Kurdish etc. Veritas.vos.Liberabit.58 (talk) 11:22, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, that is not true. There are about 2.8M people with Turkish descent in Germany. Around 1.5 of them have the Turkish citizenship. Among those only around 250k people have the Turkish AND the German citizenship[1]. The reason: Before 2000 it was not possible to get German citizenship without losing the Turkish one.

Ugur Sahin does only have the German citizenship. See: „Beide sind Kinder türkischer Einwanderer, deutsche Staatsbürger und weltweit angesehene Wissenschaftler.“ = „Both are children of Turkish immigrants, German citizens and globally respected scientists.“

[WP:ETHNICITY]: „The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.“ So we know, that he has got the German citizenship. We don’t know whether he identifies with the German ethnicity. Thus we must not write or insinuate otherwise. Anyway, it would be against WP:ETHNICITY because it is not relevant for his activities. However, we can write that he is of Turkish descent. Hence, I will correct the phrasing. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 09:28, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, that is not true. There are about 2.8M people with Turkish descent in Germany. Around 1.5 of them have the Turkish citizenship. Among those only around 250k people have the Turkish AND the German citizenship[2]. The reason: Before 2000 it was not possible to get German citizenship without losing the Turkish one.

Ugur Sahin does only have the German citizenship. See: „Beide sind Kinder türkischer Einwanderer, deutsche Staatsbürger und weltweit angesehene Wissenschaftler.“ = „Both are children of Turkish immigrants, German citizens and globally respected scientists.“

WP:ETHNICITY: „The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.“ So we know, that he has got the German citizenship. We don’t know whether he identifies with the German ethnicity. Thus we must not write or insinuate otherwise. Anyway, it would be against WP:ETHNICITY because it is not relevant for his activities. However, we can write that he is of Turkish descent. Hence, I will correct the phrasing. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 09:29, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@A11w1ss3nd: In the light of WP:ETHNICITY and lack of proof of dual citizenship, I will not dispute the current lead sentence. However, I think we can add Turkish in the infobox as "nationality" which exists there as a parameter in addition to "citizenship". The fact that these two terms are often used interchangeably should not be confusing here. The term "nationality" here should be understood as "a group of people with the same language, culture and history" IMHO... Veritas.vos.Liberabit.58 (talk) 11:35, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality is not precisely defined and for German only citizens with foreign descent it is unusual to define another nationality. What’s wrong with only writing „Turkish descent“? Turkish nationality is speculation, respectively imprecise. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 11:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@A11w1ss3nd: I have quoted above Oxford English dictionary definition of nationality in the sense that is different from citizenship. The lead sentence is OK for me as I've said. However, we should accept people with the ethnic identities, nationalities, etc. they indentify themselves with. The citizens of Germany do not consist of Germans only, just the same way as the citizens of Turkey do not consist of Turks only. There is a sizeable Turkish population in Germany who preserve their Turkish identity, the same way as there are Kurds, Armenians, etc. in Turkey. Talking about these minorities as "Germans of Turkish descent" or "Turks of Kurdish descent, Turks of Armenian descent etc." is not quite right, because this term somewhat falls short of accepting/recognizing/respecting their different identity. I know this issue is a bit sensitive in countries like Germany, Turkey, etc. who have some strong nationalist backgrounds, but this is a fact that should be accepted: there are Turks (people who identify themselves as Turkish) in Germany, and there are Kurds (people who identify themselves as Kurdish) in Turkey, etc... Veritas.vos.Liberabit.58 (talk) 12:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but we don’t have enough good proof that Ugur Sahin identifies himself as Turkish. A11w1ss3nd (talk) 12:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion

Since the second revision of November 9, the article has been marked as "in the process of an expansion or major restructuring," but still classified as a stub. In order to help, I have provided a translation of the German Wikipedia article, while adding proper disclosure of my COI on my user page, this talk page, and the page itself. I hope this appropriate, and I will refrain from any further large edits here. Independent community feedback is highly appreciated. Thanks, J at BioNTech (talk) 16:16, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic Alevi - Alewi

He is an arabic Alawi. He belongs to the same Religion that the Assads in Syria belongs to.

His wife is a Christian. When she was six years old, she wanted to become an nun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C0:D73C:BA71:21EC:5FAA:5006:C6A9 (talk) 00:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]