Talk:Ukrainian collaboration with Nazi Germany

Outrageously inaccurate

There are so many inconsistancies and outright inventions, it is even hard to pinpoint which one is the worst. Even thought there are sources listed, there are no citations at all. I guess the most outrageous fabrication is that "local population frequently provided an added dimension of danger for the local Jews" - there are many Ukrainians, who risked their lives to protect the Jews.[1][2] [3] Even the State of Israel recognized their heroism - and to make sweeping allegations like that is grossly unjustified. Also the 'story' about Ukrainian participation in Babi Yar is grossly inaccurate, to tell that Ukrainian nationalists rounded up Jews, when Ukrainian nationalists were themselves massacred there! Please consult an existing article. I think this kind of vicious and unjustified propaganda is a shame for Jewish people most of all. --Hillock65 00:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Title and opening paragraph

This is a perfectly legitimate subject for an article, but it must be a properly researched and referenced article. There is a problem with this title: Ukrainian Nazi Collaboration during WW2. "Ukrainian" is a nationality, whereas "Nazi" is a political party. It should be Ukrainian-German collaboration during World War II. Secondly the opening paragraphy says:

Ukrainians are among the nations that suffered the most in the course of WWII. The absolute majority of Ukrainians fought the occupants of their lands. As among other occupied nations, a vain minority, howeever, collaborated with Nazi in massacres against other nations.

Apart from poor English, which can be fixed:

• The first sentence is a completely unverifiable comparative statement. It may be true, but can't be proved or disproved.
• The second sentence is untrue. The "absolute majority" of Ukrainians neither collaborated with nor resisted the Germans - they simply tried to survive. From my reading, it seems that in the first year of occupation most Ukrainians welcomed the defeat of the Soviets, but by 1943 most wanted the Germans gone.
• The third sentence is editorialising. It is not this articles's business to say whether Ukrainian-German collaboration was good or bad, although others can of course be quoted as saying various things about it. Adam 23:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced the opening paragraph with a sentence, which isn't very good, but mentions more or less all the relevant facts, that were there before. Anyway, it's only meant to temporary.--Carabinieri 00:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I also added some facts from a paper by Yehuda Bauer.--Carabinieri 00:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW [4] this also an interesting article on this topic.--Carabinieri 00:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The way the article is written, it is not about Ukrainian Nazi Collaboration, but about how Ukrainians murdered Jews. There are no sources apart from the Holocaust research. If the topic is about how Ukrainians were bad to the Jews than it should be called that way or maybe merged with a similar article about how Jews (Kaganowitch and Trotsky) were murdering Ukrainians and expand on how these two peoples were murdering each other throughout the Russian revolution and the two World Wars. It might be interesting, actually.--Hillock65 01:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

infoukes.com

This pro ukrainian insurgent army website is hardly a scholarly source or reputable source of information, it's equivalent to using stormfront.com as a source on the holocaust article.--Yarillastremenog 00:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

This kind of comment clearly shows how much the "authors" of this "article" really know about Ukraine and Ukrainians. This is not an insurgent army website - please familiarize yourself with the site before making bigoted remarks, it doesn't serve any useful purpose, except alienating Ukrainians and Jews, unless, of course this is what you are after.

InfoUkes Corporate Page An Internet Information Resource about Ukraine and Ukrainians —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hillock65 (talk • contribs) 03:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC).

by their own admission, infoukes.com is pro ukrainian insurgent army, a quick look at their list of articles shows this, this biased internet website should not be used as a reliable let alone neutral source of information, this has nothing do to with 'alienating' anyone, but using apologist and biased websites as 'references' is a joke -Yarillastremenog

For this discussion to be meaningful, please give instances of their bias. It is just as neutral as the sources in the article, all written by Jewish authors and none by neutral authors. Writing in positive light about Ukrainian Insurgent Army is not a sign of bias, if that was true, than quoting Jewish authors for this article is also biased.--Hillock65 03:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Martin Gilbert is Jewish? not that it would matter, he is a recognized expert and historian on the holocaust with many published books to his name, unlike infoukes.com which is run by a couple of Ukrainians living in North America, it certainly appears your antisemitic tendencies are coming to the surface by claiming a Jewish author is naturally biased, whereas those who promote a recognized terrorist group with human rights atrocities are 'neutral'-Yarillastremenog

I would advise you to tone down the level of your agression and stop using slandering remarks, otherwise a complaint agaist you will be filed. Name calling and labelling of an opponent is not only civil and also counterproductive. Calling a site about Ukraine and Ukrainians biased only because it is run by "a couple of Ukrainians living in North America" is just as racist. You started to assign labels and accusations without having the vaguest idea about the site. As well you unfouded and outrageously false categorization of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army as a "recognized terrorist group" is another sign of your prejudices. Recognized by whom, when, where?--Hillock65 03:30, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian women and German soldiers

My first intention was to delete this completely irrelevant to the topic of this article and openly xenophobic statement about sexual relationships between German soldiers and Ukrainian women, but then I decided to leave it, as it clearly illustrates the level of the contributors to this article as well as their true intentions. For it appears, that the purpose of this article is not to examine the Ukrainian-Nazi collaboration at all, but rather to engage in xenophobic diatribes and slanderous accusations. I would also ask other users not to delete it to give the full picture about the authors of this article and of their true intentions.--Hillock65 10:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Hillock65, I added a reference for that claim (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_ell_5990153_25/02/2006_66850), which shows it to be 100% fact, I hope you reconsider calling it 'Xenophobic' as I believe everything else written in this article to be also 100% true, sometimes things in history may upset you, like the fact that most Ukrainian women slept with German soldiers and this is a form of cooperation between the germans and ukrainians and thus quite relevant to the articleYarillastremenog 11:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Could you explain, how this is relevant to Ukrainian Nazi Collaboration? Not just this xenophobic part but 90% of the article. The article doesn't upset me in the least, in fact I am glad it is here with its biased and overwhelmingly false allegations. People are not that stupid, you humiliate yourself with this article first and foremost. Please continue! --Hillock65 12:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Hillock65, "I would advise you to tone down the level of your agression and stop using slandering remarks" (that's what you wrote in the previous section). Yarillastremenog merely added a section to this article, which was relevant to the topic in his/her opinion. Whether it is in fact relevant or not is worth a discussion, but adding the section doesn't humiliate anyone. Further, remember WP:AGF. I don't know how you can conclude anything as to Yarillastremenog's "true intentions" as you put it. I actually do think that mentioning sexual relations between Ukrainians and Germans (especially if they are soldiers) might be worthwhile to a certain extent, since these do indicate that the women who had the relations were not hostile to the German soldiers, as long as it was voluntary of course.--Carabinieri 12:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Thats how I feel, especially since women who slept with German soldiers were considered 'collaborators' in France or Norway, even post war, makes this perfectly relevant to the article. After all the reader can draw their own conclusion whether it is good or bad, just stating the truth isn't grounds to get upset like Hillock65 is getting over that section and labelling it xenophobicYarillastremenog 12:30, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It still doesn't answer the question how it relates to the topic of the article (Ukrainian Nazi Collaboration during WW2), or this is part of collaboration as well? In what way? Look up the meaning of the word collaboration. You cannot assume that sexual relationships with Jews or Ukrainians is collaboration. Comparing to what people thought in France is rediculous. If it is worth discussing, then one should also add how Jewish women or any other had sex with German soldiers. I am sure all kind of women had sex with German soldier, Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish, Polish. How does this add to the topic of discussion? Maybe the author could be more precise, how sex for Germans with Ukrainian women was different from sex with Jewish women and since relevance is not that important, he could elaborate on sexual positions and types of perversions perpetrated on Ukrainian/Jewish women.--Hillock65 12:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually articles on the Holocaust do detail how the Germans operated brothels in concentration camps, as well as the wehrmacht also quietly sanctioned their use in other areas "Comparing to what people thought in France is rediculous" why? Both Ukraine and France were occupied by Germany making a comparison is a good idea. Also this is not just about sex, statistically, more 'children of German soldiers' were born in the Ukraine than possibly anywhere else, it appears many of them assimilated into Ukrainian society.Yarillastremenog 12:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be tragically missing the point of this article. This is supposed to be about how Ukrainians collaborated with Germans. Sex is not collaboration, you provide no sources that it is in fact so. It has never been collaboration even in France. How many children and whether Germans preferred Ukrainian women to Jewish is not the point of discussion of this article. How is this relevant? The only relevance in my point is that the author tries to denigrate Ukrainians as much as possible. No one argues that collaboration existed, but thumbing through used condoms finding whether women participated in collaboration is indeed way too too much. This only entices antisemitism and animosity towards Jews, as this article is a mix of stories of mistreatment of Jews by Ukrainians with sordid stories of women sleeping with Germans. Ukrainians and Jews need understanding of each other, not mutual accusations. This is unnecessary and wrong. Write about SS divisions, local auxiliary police but denigrating Ukrainians that much is inciting anti-semitism, unless that's what you are after.--Hillock65 13:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Apparantly you have never read about or seen the photographs of women getting their heads shaved in public in France for having sexual relations with the Germans, or how Norwegian women who did the same thing or the children born from those relations (lebensborn program) they were considered collaborators after war, by that they were considered to have aided the invading occupying military. Your statements about encouraging anti semitism or damaging 'ukrainian jewish relations' is nonsense, the Jews were put in concentration camps or murdered by the nazis and this was aided by some Ukrainians, however Ukrainian women sleeping with German soldiers and producing many offspring is a relevant topic for this article, both could be considered 'collaboration' and were so by the soviet government, and detailing history is not the fault of the JewsYarillastremenog 13:29, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

What does Ukrainian-German sex have to do with anti-Semitism. Accusing Yarillastremenog of inciting anti-Semitism is completely ridiculous. People don't become anti-Semites because they read something on Wikipedia.--Carabinieri 13:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Could we please have an intelligent discussion, rather than this bickering.--Carabinieri 13:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I explained it quite clearly. This article is designed to humiliate and denigrate Ukrainians rather than meaningfully treat the subject of collaboration. Please read above.--Hillock65 13:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Name of the article

The title of this article should be renamed to more neutral one "Nazi Collaboration during WW2 in Ukraine", because this attempt to show Ukrainians( as well as other ethnic groups) as the Nazi collaborators is a political bias. --Alex Kov 14:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

This article in general

Hillock65, I agree with you this article is not very good and very one-sided. This is why I re-wrote the opening paragraph with a citation of a paper by a well-known and internationally renowend Holocaust historian, Yehuda Bauer. I was hoping this would start an effort to re-write the entire article and make something better of it. You went on to partially remove the claims by Yehuda Bauer without explanation ([5]). You also added a few completely irrelevant sentences.

This article is about crimes committed by Ukranians. You're going to have to leave your national sentiments by side and deal with that. Most Ukrainians welcomed Nazi Germany after it attacked the Soviet Union and occupied the Ukraine. You can't change that and the fact that numerous Ukrainians took part in the Holocaust voluntarily. Your actions remind me of the numerous German historical revisionists I deal with everyday, who think the Holocaust was committed by Hitler and noone else. And yes, other nations behaved similarly, but this article is not about that.

If you want to write about the more positive side of Ukrainian behavior during this period start an article about Ukrainian resistance against Germany during World War II or something similar, but the topic of this article is just a different one.--Carabinieri 18:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians fought in the WWII, estimated to be 4,5 million. As well, statement that Jews collaborated witn Nazis is not irrelevant. Just like Ukrainians participated in the Holocaust, so did the Jews. You will have to live with that too. Jews are not immune from war crimes as well, neither in the past nor today. Bringing neutrality and another point of view is just what this article needs if instead of collaboration you dwell on who participated in the Holocaust. Well, a noted american historian believes Jews did too. So this is very relevant. Please do not erase parts which you consider irrelevant, instead explain your position. Plese see: Wikipedia:Vandalism Erasing and reverting is not going to help anyone.--Hillock65 19:53, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't deny that were Jews, who had some responsibility for the Holocaust. But that's not the topic of this article.--Carabinieri 20:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW: try reading WP:AGF.--Carabinieri 20:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Take a long and careful look at the title of the article, it is not about the Holocaust, but about Ukrainian - Nazi cooperation. If you mention Holocaust, however, than all aspects of it should be mentioned and not only the ones that you like. Take responsibility.--Hillock65 20:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

A long and careful look at the article tells me its about the cooperation between the Ukrainians and Nazi Germany during World War II. My own knowledge tells me that the Ukrainian participation in the genocide against the Jews, i.e. the Holocaust, was a big part of this. Hence, the Ukrainian part in the Holocaust is relevant, the "evil Jews'" part is not.--Carabinieri 03:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there an evidence that Ukrainian Jews cooperated with the Nazis? Why a half of the intro talks about it? I am removing it. Whoever thinks of restoring, please bring reliable sources (see WP:V, WP:CITE). ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 03:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The lead talks about others participation in the Holocaust as well, including Jews. I quoted a famous American historian, Lenni Brenner Jewish himself. There is an article on him, check it out. He mentions about Zionist contribution to the Holocaust as well. It is relevant, it shows that all participated in the genocide, including the Jews themselves. Please do not delete sources that you don;t like. Deleting them will not help. War of reverts is counterproductive.--Hillock65 04:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

So don't do it. Read the title of this article, then read WP:LEAD. Then answer the question: Is there an evidence that Ukrainian Jews cooperated with the Nazis? ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 04:40, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

There is none. This is just an anti-Semite lie. The einsatzgruppen went through Ukraine in 1941-42 and killed the great majority of Jews. They had no chance to "collaborate" even if they had wanted to. Has Hillock65 not heard of Babi Yar? If he is going to base his case for revising this article on this kind of garbage he won't get much sympathy from anyone who know the history of the Holocaust.

Of course there were Ukrainians who helped Jews (see below), but not very many, and there were many more Ukriainians who joined in killing the Jews, or collaborated in other ways. If it were not for the fact that the Germans intended to turn Ukraine into a "German Garden of Eden" and enslave the Slavic population, there would have been much more collaboration. It was only the unspeakable behaviour of the Nazis that drove the majority of Ukrainians to end their support for the Germans and welcome the return of the Soviets, though undertsandably not with much enthusiasm.

I don't blame the Ukrainians for welcoming the Germans in 1941. After what Stalin had done to Ukraine it was quite understandable. But there is no point in denying these facts. Adam 04:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Gentlemen, this is not going anywhere. This article is designed to demonise Ukrainians and full of unverified and outright false facts. I propose you have a hard and long look at the title. It is not about how Ukrainians or Jews participated in the Holocaust, but rather how Ukrainians collaborated with Germans. Mind you an overwhelming minority, millions of Ukrainians fought in the Red Army. Millions. There were a number of reasons for a minority to cooperate - lets examine those. There were different forms of collaboration SS divisions, auxilliary police, etc. - let;s examine those as well. And most imoportantly the horrors of war are not for the present generations to spread the blame around and compete who suffered more. However, that being said, if you still wish to focus exclusively on Holocaust and demonise Ukrainians than you unwittingly - and maybe even purpusfully - will entice antisemitism and resentment of Jews for demonising others. It will only alienate out two peoples and create more unhealing wounds - it is not for the benifit of Ukrainians or Jews, trust me. War experienc was traumatic for both, let's not profit on it, there is enough blame on Jews too. A reputable American historian writes extensively on Zionist leadership cooperating fully with the Nazis. I am reading it right now and will probably write an article about it. If you insist on spreading blame, there is enough for everyone, it is just counterproductive and unwise. Think ahead.--Hillock65 05:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

"profit on it"? Obviously, you have some strong POV but WP is a wrong platform for it. I find it very disturbing that you chose to neutralize the subject of Ukrainian-German collaboration during World War II with allegations against Jews. Nobody is off to "demonise Ukrainians" - please review WP:NPOV.

On the subject: there are volumes upon volumes of evidence similar to what Adam cited below. I asked you the same question twice, no answer so far. BTW, a proper characterization for Lenni Brenner would be a political activist, not "reputable historian". ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 05:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Title

As flagged earlier, I am moving this article to Ukrainian-German collaboration during World War II. Adam 23:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I support the article's move. --KPbIC 00:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I support also. Now it needs to be cleaned of unproven tendentious allegations and something might come out of it.--Hillock65 01:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Gilbert on Ukrainians

Some quotes from Martin Gilbert’s The Righteous: The Unsung Heroes of the Holocaust (Henry Holt and Co, 2003)

“Professor Edgar Gold, who survived the war in Germany as a hidden child, and whose father survived four concentration camps, including Auschwitz, writes that his father often told him ‘that the Germans could not have done what they did without the assistance of their Ukrainian [and other] “helpers.”… My father also often mentioned that the cruelty and bestiality of Ukrainian and Baltic States’ concentration camp guards often far surpassed the cold, calculating cruelty of the Germans.” (xix)

At Lutsk, the Mironiuk family hid numeous Jews who had escaped from the ghetto. “However, the local Ukrainian population could also be terrifyingly hostile to those who sought refuge; it had, after all, carried out murderous progroms of its own against the Jews in the first weeks of the war.” (9)

“Boryslaw was another East Galician town with a substantial Jewish population… On 1 July 1941, when the Germans entered Boryslaw, local Ukrainians, supported by the Germans, started a day-long anti-Jewish pogrom in which 300 Jews were killed.” (63)

On the next page is the story of Julia Schepaniuk family of Boryslaw, who sheltered a Jewish family of eight in her storeroom, and was awarded the title Righteous Among the Nations. (64)

Oops forgot to sign. Adam 04:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Adam, You know, I also have this book, and read that. But revise this: 1. Gilbert provides us few people's interview, that could not prove the fact; 2. Also few quotes You provide, and many from Gilbert's papers says about Jews pogroms (also, review that that's main focus of Martin's research). Can it be clarified as Ukrainian-German collaboration? Martin's research doesn't mention that. Please, give more detailed arguments, why this author applies to whole article --Galkovsky 01:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, I must say, that recent Gilbert's book is discussed even by Jews: according to Mordecai Paldiel, Yad Vashem historian, 17,500 righteous Ukrainians had been identified in comparison to Gilbert's "almost 2,000 Ukrainians". And Martin provides only few unique cases of Jews pogroms, without citing any official documents. ONLY few interviews. --Galkovsky 02:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, and the most important -- read short overview, with cites of those books [8] - reference of the article. And notice, what are names of Martin Gilbert's books -- in "The Righteous: The Unsung Heros of the Holocaust" -- there are plenty of facts of Ukrainian-heroes who saved Jews during German occupation. What You'll recommend? All of that relates to Jews, not to Ukrainian-German collaboration. So, maybe it will be better to remove Gilbert's book from references? That doesn't relate to the actual article title and it's content. --Galkovsky 02:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Literature (reference list)

Please, explain to me, why reference #10 are valid? It seems, this research hold by only one person. So this brutally violates Wikipedia policy on [6] rule.

Also, if you want to ensure -- google for that name "Stavros Tzimas" - [[7]] - it seems, that guy is just journalist, not even historian. How that reference could be cited?

Admins, please tell me what steps I have to do to remove that reference? --Galkovsky 01:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this article a POV-fork?

I want editors to think about merging this article with Ukranian resistance during World War II, or renaming it and including data about resistance. With collaboration as the focus, editors with Ukranian sympathies are obviously going to be concerned about the trend of the article. That is the reason that we should avoid forks. A single article that examined collaboration and resistance in a single article is more likely to find a consensus. Bucketsofg 02:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, please notice, that my quick overview of sources cited pointed out, that most of them are irrelevant to current article's title and content!!! How this can allowed in Wiki - to write an article with only or very-very few references --Galkovsky 02:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian women and German soldiers

I'm going to comment this section in a few hours, because it violates the Wikipedia rule about verifiability and Original research. "Kerstin Muth" is psychologist with no sources in English, and "Tzimas, Stavros" is a little-known journalist --Galkovsky 02:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

If you will read original of [10] reference -- here [8] - you can see, that citation used in article body was extracted incorrectly. More reliable source have to be used, according to Wiki standards. --Galkovsky 03:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this section (citation, mainly) falls under Sources of dubious reliability together with Sources in languages other than English + First pillar ("Nor is Wikipedia a dictionary, a newspaper, or a collection of source documents").

Hope provided facts are enough for section commenting. --Galkovsky 03:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Split up

As you can see -- most of this page contains information on Jews genocide in Ukraine. So it would be right decision to split up this article into two relevant, covering own title. --Galkovsky 05:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian - German collaboration includes the implementation of the holocaust, i believe the article should not be split up =Redstone357 06:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

As an outside admin trying to promote cooperation here, it seems to me that a split is the wrong way to go. As I mentioned above, an article on Ukrainian-German collaboration is a POV-split that is bound to cause edit wars. Editors should consider creating a new article on Ukrainian-German collaboration and resistance that aims at presenting a historically accurate and balanced view: some collaborated, others resisted, most kept their heads down. Bucketsofg 15:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• You're mistaken regarding: "some collaborated, others resisted, most kept their heads down." There was widespread collaboration in the theft from, and murder of, the Jewish population in ukraine. On D-Day the Allies were fighting ukranians. The guards in Europe's death camps were substatially all ukrainian. The historical sorces of ukrainian complicity in theft and murder is overwhelming.--Lance ^talk 17:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are you trying to pick a fight with Ukrainians? You are taking historical facts and interpreting them in the most anti-Ukrainian way possible. Let's let the facts speak for themselves. Specifically:

"There was widespread collaboration in the theft from, and murder of, the Jewish population in ukraine"

Do you know how many Ukrainians were killed or captured working for the Nazi regime, or how many were employed in important roles? If not, then you can't just say it and hope that it's true.

On D-Day the Allies were fighting ukranians. The guards in Europe's death camps were substatially all ukrainian.

Sources?

Here's what we do know, millions of Ukrainians served in the Red Army and Soviet Partisans fighting against Nazi Germany, and even the UPA turned against the Germans. Kevlar67 21:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Hm. Thanks to Kevlar67. Completely agree. What's the mess with Ukrainians? Jews live not only in Ukraine, and Holocaust wasn't held only on territory of Ukraine. And when some guy says, said all "guards in Europe's death camps were Ukrainians" - the only thing I can say about him -- he doesn't know history (he is imperialist). :) --Galkovsky 06:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Images

Please, do not delete images from article text. I think they are highly relevant to the article subject. Also, I corrected the licensing of images. I've got them yesterday from state archive. If you have any questions -- please ask here before edits. Thanks. --Galkovsky 15:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge?

What do editors think about merging this article with History_of_Ukraine#Ukraine_in_World_War_II or creating a new article History_of_Ukraine_in_World_War_II? Bucketsofg 17:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Creating History_of_Ukraine_during_World_War_II may be a good idea, but as is the case with most other nations, which were under German occupation, collaboration is an important topic, which merits its own article. Beit Or 19:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there are no other such articles. There is, however, Occupation of the Channel Islands, Occupation of Czechoslovakia, Occupation of Denmark, Occupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany, Occupation of Greece by Nazi Germany, Occupation of Norway by Nazi Germany, and Occupation of Latvia by Nazi Germany. There is also Reichskommissariat Ukraine which has much material in it already about this phenomenon. Bucketsofg 20:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree with you Beit Or, I think it would still be a good idea to merge this article. The contributors to this article who can't bear having Ukrainian crimes mentioned by themselves have made large parts of this article talk about other things than collaboration. (I mean the whole "Righteous people of the world" section is interesting and worth mentioning but purely and simply off topic in this article).--Carabinieri 01:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I am against the merge, Bucketsofg makes a point that other articles about German collaboration are lacking, but that doesn't mean this one doesn't merit its own existance as a unique article, after all it is correctly claimed that Ukraine contributed more concentration camp guards, SD and SS volunteers/conscripts than any other ethnicity or nation, I also agree with the point made by Carabinieri that pro Ukrainian editors are unfortunately adding irrelevant topics to the article, however this information should be judged on whether it has relevance to Ukrainian-German collaboration, if not it should be deleted or moved to another article where it has more relevance --Yarillastremenog 00:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge would be a good solution for current situation.--Bryndza 02:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Use of {{fact}} tags

When you add a fact tag to a sentence please make sure the assertion is not already sourced. "Immediately after the invasion, the Germans were enthusiastically welcomed by most of the Ukrainian population except for a pro-Soviet minority." That assertion is covered by the paper by Yehuda Bauer, which is mentioned in the following footnote. I'm all for singling out un-sourced assertions, but sourced ones should be left.--Carabinieri 19:39, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I've remvoed the tag as you have had no answer William M. Connolley 19:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Protected

2006-12-28T15:14:00 Bucketsofg (Talk | contribs | block) m (Protected Ukrainian-German collaboration during World War II: protect to end edit warring [edit=sysop:move=sysop]) but is now on wiki-break so I have "acquired" it. Discuss... William M. Connolley 17:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

time to unprotect

here are some good sources to add to the article that corroborates some of what is written about Ukrainian involvement in the einatzgruppen and atrocities against minorities which was collaboration with Nazi plans for Europe

http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/chronology/1939-1941/1941/chronology_1941_11.html

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob57.html

some other Issues I have with the current version of the article

The photos uploaded and linked to this article have little relevance to the subject matter, they would have more relevance in an article about the history of Ukraine in general or WW2, a good photo is one I have seen in the Jurgen Stroop report' which shows 'askari' (nickname for Ukrainian militiamen by Germans) during the warsaw ghetto revolt, that is a valid photo of Ukrainian German collaboration, showing a woman 'distraught' after the soviet soldiers left is a nice photo but not for this article, unless someone can prove some direct relevance I recommend they be unlinked from this article

Also some of the sourced information has been removed by some editors Galkovsky/Bryndza without good reason, the section on Ukrainian women and German soldiers was decided to have relevance to the subject of Ukrainian-German collaboration by several people here in a previous discussion, it should not be removed by one editor who perhaps has his own personal reasons to dislike the subject matter, certainly if they want to expand that section and show why perhaps Ukrainian women were compelled to engage in sex with German soldiers then so be it, but deleting a relevant subject is counterproductive --Yarillastremenog 00:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Counterproductive is providing dubios references. And only one. Just read: "Almost any child that was born in that country between 1942 and 1944 was the offspring of a German soldier". Now take into account that 85% of population in Ukraine at that time was rural. And do you want to claim that German troops stayed in every village? Now: "For Russian women in the Soviet Union after the war, to have borne the child of a German soldier meant either execution or a gulag in Siberia for life." So all the children died in Siberia? Next: "An estimated 1 to 2 million children of German soldiers were born to women in the occupied countries". And a sentence before: "She has already found a woman in Thessaloniki who was born in 1944 to a German father and a Greek mother". That was really hard with such a big number of cases. Sheer nonsence. Don't you think that "There were strict prohibitions on marrying Ukrainian and Polish women, because they were Slavs and hence 'subhuman.'" tabu would stop Germans from relations with these women? Anyway. For making such claims as you do yu have to provide sorces other than some yellow press dubious self-reserch article. Regards.--Bryndza 02:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

You are extracting information from that [article] incorrectly to prove your point, for example on your last point "There were strict prohibitions on marrying Ukrainian and Polish women, because they were Slavs and hence 'subhuman. it goes on to say 'Yet in spite of that, there were many marriages' By the way you call this a 'dubious yellow press self research' even though Kerstin Muth is a historian and bases her research on 'meticulous study of the Wehrmacht archives in Berlin' to quote from the article. You have not provided any sources to refute the claims made by Kerstin Muth, indeed you have not provided any references at all that would dispute what is claimed in that article. --Yarillastremenog 09:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Please differentiate between marriage and sleeping around. What about rural population? What about other things I pointed out? I would like to see here those documents from archive in Berlin or at least one more historian has to find them and make same conclusions. Otherwise there is nothing to disprove. I can see now why you have no future. One who builds his history from denies and accusations to others instead of at least remembering those saved can not be respected.--Bryndza 13:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

New sources provided by Yarillastremenog contain references to Ukrainian militia, but those are "eyewitness account", it contains no information on actual scale of those events. No actual science paper covers that.

So it's obvious, Yarillastremenog just misinterpret information from Yad Vashem. That's improper. --Galkovsky 12:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Eyewitness accounts are acceptable by wikipedia standards, you certainly have not even attempted to dispute any information posted, maybe you have no references to do so --Yarillastremenog 09:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, section about Ukrainian Women. That question was already discussed, no valid sources were provided. Wikipedia can not contain material from papers, as valid sources. Only scientific papers, by historians can be used here. --Galkovsky 12:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

read my reply to User:Bryndza --Yarillastremenog 09:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Since when are papers of journalistic nature not reliable sources? What Wikipedia policy are you basing that assertion on? Have you even read WP:RS? It states that scholarly sources are better, but does not say that newspapers, etc are not. Take a look at the article about Gerald Ford, for example, it cites plenty of non-scholarly sources, but reached WP:FA. On the other hand, I do agree with you, Galovksy, eyewitness accounts - like all primary sources - are good for some things, but not in this case. They generally do establish (more or less) that the information contained within them is true, especially if these are respected in the scientific community. They do not, however, establish relevance in the grand scheme of things. They can be used to provide details, but not as the sole sources for a particular event or aspect of a topic, especially since they can easily be used to misinterpret the situation as a whole.

Why doesn't everyone start citing accurate information about the topic at hand (cooperation between the Ukrainian people and/or the Ukrainian state with Nazi Germany during WWII) and stop adding rants or other non-relevant information about sexual relations, resistance against Nazi Germany, etc. In discussions like this it's important to always cite Wikipedia policy or guidelines or notable precedents, when claiming that a source is not reliable, e.g.--Carabinieri 17:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Please start cyting documents.--Bryndza 13:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

copyvio images

recently inserted images violates copyrights --Galkovsky 09:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• Can you elaborate? I do not see copyvio here. Alex Bakharev 10:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

copyrights stated on both pages, artukraine site is selling such photos, so it can't be used. --Galkovsky 10:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If photo is public domain everybody can sell the reproductions of it. Copyright sign is most probably related to the design of the webpage rather than the image. You could ask the webowners if they claim the copyright for photographs but I doubt the validity of such a claim Alex Bakharev 11:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Righteous people of the world

That section is not relevant to this article. The article is supposed to deal with Ukrainian cooperation with Nazi Germany during WWII. Therefore I will be deleting it or moving it to a relevant article if no persuading arguments against this are posted here within 3 days.--Carabinieri 13:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur completely --Yarillastremenog 00:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

But I don't. Do not hurry with it.--Bryndza 20:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

When participating in a discussion you have to give reasons for things, you can't just say that you disagree. The only reason I haven't deleted the section and won't delete it is that it looks like this article will be merged into other articles anyway, so I think it's ok if the section remains here until the merging and deleting is done.--Carabinieri 20:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Lead section

Can you please also highlight what have I reverted, it seems we are working on two separate versions of the article.--Kuban Cossack 15:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

You also changed removed my edits to the lead section.([9])--Carabinieri 15:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Several problems with it, first of all do make an effort to re-write the english, then it says most welcomed is also untrue, except maybe in the western regions, and this has to be highlighted. Likewise during the liberation of Ukraine (and see lengthy Talk:Battle if the Lower Dnieper and the mediation that followed it) on why the term "liberation" is acceptable to be used on any Soviet anti-German action in the course of the War. Lastly the section should read Galicia and parts of Volhynia instead of Volhynia and Eastern Galcia, or better just leave Western Ukraine. --Kuban Cossack 15:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Most Ukrainians did enthusiastically support the Germans when they first arrived (see the last sentence on pg. 13 of the paper by Yehuda Bauer, which is cited in the article.) I guess you are right about the word "liberation". Though I do believe it to be a POV term, because judging which system is "freeer" the Soviet, Western democratic, etc on the one hand or the Nazi on the other is just that a POV. But since it is an established term in historiography, I highly doubt it will ever be removed from articles relating to France for example, so I guess it's probably best if it is applied to all articles relating to Germany's military defeats in territories it had conquered in WWII. "Volhynia and Eastern Galcia" is more exact and is also the term Bauer uses so I consider it to be preferable.--Carabinieri 15:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Like I said by most Ukrainains applies only to the Western Ukraine. I do not need to tell you about just how much percentage of Chernigov Oblast was involved in partisan resistance, and that is greater than 90%. The UPA and German sympathy outside Western Ukraine was minute, I am not denying that it was absent altogether, but then the same can be said about any other occupied country. --Kuban Cossack 18:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any sources for this?--Carabinieri 18:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

There are a million Soviet History books and even modern Ukrainian books, well go ask any Ukrainian outside Western Ukraine whether they welcomed the Germans, particularly in the eastern Ukraine. --Kuban Cossack 19:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't know any and when dealing with controversial articles like this it is extremely important to provide reputable and verifiable sources for every assertion.--Carabinieri 19:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Kuban Cossack provides his own opinion. Even mentioned page 13th says completely other things. --Galkovsky 18:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you really think comments like that will help?--Carabinieri 19:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't feed trolls. --Kuban Cossack 19:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Future of this article

It is quite likely that the voting results will be forced to have this article removed. I propose that this be a cornerstone into a new article History of Ukraine in World War II or a title equivalent. Essentially a few sections need to be added, Soviet Partisans, various articles about Eastern Front battles and so on...and the meat is there already. A few copyedits and minor tweaks on its structure...and the article will be uncontroversial, encyclopedic, VERY useful as it is a topic that requires IMO needs an article. Effectively some of the points covered on the future article are already in the spinoff we have here. --Kuban Cossack 01:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a good sub-topic and deserves its own article. IZAK 21:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, for two reasons, first of all its an extremely sketchy title, controversial, and the article itself is short and in need of a lot of work, secondly effectively if we are going to expand it then it will pretty much morph into History of Ukraine in World War II save a few details (like partisan activity, and frontal battles). The question is, why not add those details?

Here is (rough) template:

• Intro
• Background History
  • Soviet Ukraine
  • OUN in underground Poland
• 1939 war
• Barbarossa and the overruning of Ukraine
  • Frontal Battles
• Reception by Ukrainians
  • Partisan
  • Collaboration
  • Insurgency
• Nazi Occupation
  • Holocaust in Ukraine
  • Nazi adminstration
• Liberation of Ukraine
  • Frontal Battles
  • Reception by Ukrainans
• Ukrainians made famous by war
• Aftermath
  • Insurgency
• Modern implications
• Usual article footers

The article should make a clear diversion of the POVs involved, including a definition of what is a Ukrainian POV and so on...We have an FA star sitting here and nobody seems to have any initiative to make it one. --Kuban Cossack 22:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Salacious pictures

These pictures in the article only underline the real motivation of the authors of this xenophobic article. Leaving aside the inappropriatness of these pictures in an article about WW II there is no proof these women are actually Ukrainian or Jewish. Presence of this material in this article is not only inappropriate, unverified but also without any proof whatsoever.--Chuprynka 17:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia allows nudity in other articles, so why are these 'salacious', in the documentary video Mein Krieg, the German soldier explicity mentions that footage he filmed was in western Ukraine, if you don't want to rent or buy this documentary, try reading of the reviews posted online or on amazon.com, indeed they confirm that it contains a brief scene of a naked Ukrainian woman, it may seem offensive to you but we are trying to show all levels of cooperation between Ukrainians and Germans during world war II and that includes sexual relations --Yarillastremenog 23:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Now again, two direct questions which you neglected to address:

1. How does exactly nudity relate to the topic of cooperation?

2. Where is the verifiable proof those are Ukrainian and not Jewish women?--Chuprynka 00:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems every debate with Ukrainian nationalists degenerates into a debate over who is Jewish or Ukrainian etc, remember it was hillock and other Ukrainians who criticised this article for only concentrating on the holocaust and atrocities against the Jewish minority in Ukraine during WWII, therefore sections on other forms of sexual collaboration between the occupying axis forces and ukrainians is indeed relevant in its own section. I didn't mention religion but when you consider that Jews were already being mass murdered at babi yar and even the documentary mein krieg shows Jews being hanged, it seems unlikely those civilians would be Jewish considering how friendly they are with the German soldiers in 1942, but if you want to believe that, fine. What is undeniable is that the screenshots I posted from Mein Krieg are of Ukrainian civilians (in all liklihood, Ukrainian Christians, not Jews), if you want to dispute the validity of the screenshots, you must watch the documentary first to make such a claim, but at the moment you have no facts and no right to claim they are 'unverified' --Yarillastremenog 08:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Apart from isults and irrelevant gibberish you seem to be singularly missing the point. Unlike you I am not an avid viewer of porn films even if they are made by Nazis. A very legitimate question was if there is a proof that those women are actually Ukrainian. I don't want to watch this porn film to find the proof: since you post these salacious images the onus is on you to prove their nationality and most importantly the relevance to the topic of collaboration. I don't care if they are Jewish or not, that is irrelevant — what is relevant, however, the proof of their nationality. Preferrably a documented one. You cannot expect others to watch porn films to find out who the subject is. Check out WP:V and don't abuse this policy. On the side note, not all Jews were mistreated — some performed other duties as well. Educate yourself: Margherita Sarfatti If a Jewish woman was providing intimate services to Benito Mussolini, I find it entirely conceivable there were a few that did the same for Germans. In other words you have to prove the nationality of the women with documented sources. --Chuprynka 16:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Your reply is inappropriate and I consider to be a personal attack, the images are sourced and referenced and not from a 'porn film' if you are too stupid to even check what documentary I was talking about then obviously you are too stupid to discuss this further with. By the way the documented sources that those civilians are ukrainian are in the documentary itself, and the onus is on you to disprove the validity of that documenary --Yarillastremenog 18:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

If Wikipedia can have such pictures in Nudity, with an entire Portal:Nudity, it can have them here about a real topic. IZAK 21:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, plus these photographs shed an important added historical context to the article sub section --Nfvatutin 21:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

First solve the question about copyright. Then prove nationality. Then insert.--Bryndza 21:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Bryndza, the woman looks Jewish to me, unless there is a specific proof that she is Georgian, Hungarian, Belarusian, Ukrainian or Russian I don't see it is appropriate to insert salacious pictures in a topic about WWII. Let's be serious.--Chuprynka 22:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this going to turn into an absurd racist discussion about whether this woman looks Jewish or not? Please, how can you possible tell that from the way she looks? Don't act like it's copyright you guys are concernced about. That is indeed a relevant question that should be dealt with, but I doubt that's really the reason you object to the image. When you add information or pictures to Wikipedia you say where you got them from, that's called citing your sources. But that's about as far as a burden of proof goes. You don't have to prove that a certain piece of information really does appear in a book, you just cite the book and that's enough. It is up to everyone else to check the source to see if the information or picture is there if they don't believe the editor adding it.--Carabinieri 22:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It has turned into an absurd racist discussion a while ago, it's too bad you just noticed. The user took it from some unknown source and claims it is Ukrainian, so why not Jewish of Russian? Moreover he has been posting it all over, and notably in Striptease. If a burden of proof is not needed for alleging it is Ukrainian, why all of a sudden it is racist to suggest she is Jewish? Where is the proof it is one way or another? Where is the PROOF of anything? On the reference site the authors of the film don't even mention Ukraine by name! Why didn't you have the same objections when it was posted originally?--Chuprynka 22:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

If Yarillastremenog writes that the film claims she is Ukrainian then he has cited a source just as Wikipedia calls for. If you want to dispute that, then it is up to you to check the source. What else is Yarillastremenog supposed to do other than say where the image is from and what that source says about it? A racist claim that the woman looks Jewish is not the way to go.--Carabinieri 22:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I've commented the images out for now until thy're status is cleared.--Carabinieri 22:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I have not seen this documentary, but the photographs are very relevant if they are Ukrainian women during German occupation, if they are Russian or Jewish doesn't change the relevance only the location matters to show some relevance to the article, I would say that saying someone looks Jewish and therefore the image is false is bigoted remark, she looks to have typical Slavic features to me, not unique to any religion. --Nfvatutin 22:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Mess

This article is an outright mess and needs to be rewritten from scratch if kept. To start with, very few editors can claim a greater credit for keeping the Ukrainian nationalism out of the wikipedia articles than myself. So, I have a certain right to speak up when I see an article which looks outright as an ax grinding exercise attempted to represent the Ukrainians as Nazi sympathyzers, Judophobes and the Holocaust accomplices.

The willing and eager collaboration was limited to the very few in the nationalist element among the Ukrainians. The truth is that the Ukrainians met the Nazi assault head on, contributed disproportionately many fighters into the Red Army to the ranks from the private to the Marshals, organized a massive partisan resistance and had their country devastated totally with millions dead, millions taken to slavery and economy ruined.

Nothing can be further from the truth that the representation of the Ukrainians as a nation as eager accomplices who were licking the Hitler's ass. Even within the nationalist resistance there was a significant opposition to Nazis and the fights between the nationalist UPA and Nazi forces are well documented.

There is another disgusting piece there. Some unreliable source quotes a number of chlidbirths in Ukraine under the Nazi occupation, attributes all these children as fathered by Nazis and somehow paints this as a "proof" of collaboration. Shame!

Whatever the correct number of such births was, women who did this where most assuredly scared to death to refuse. Or were starved and did this for food or to save their lives or to avoid being deported as slave laborers. And this is somehow painted as "collaboration with Nazis". My close relative, she is still alive in her mid-80s, knock-on-wood, ran away from Polizei (she was 16) who were "mobilizing" all young girls to round them up and send them for slave labor to the Reich. To this day when she hears the German language on TV she shatters. Her village was being searched for all able-bodied young women and those who were taken did not expect to ever come back. Can you blame the woman for giving sex to a Nazi hoping this would save her from deportation to a slave camp? And someone is presenting here as a proof of Ukrainian collaboration. I don't know who is worse, those Ukrainian nationalist editors who wrote that Jews in the Bolshevik leadership were guilty of Holodmor (disgusting lie) or those extremists who fight back painting such picture of Ukrainians.

My own grandfathers and grandmothers fought and worked towards the victory. They wore their war decorations proudly and it is a spit in their memory to represent Ukrainians as the nation of collaborants, like this article attempts.

I will not even touch it in the current shape, provided that the warning tags are left on top.

I say, rewrite it from scratch and neutrally. --Irpen 22:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)