Talk:Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford

Unsourced statements

I note there is no source for this statement in the article: 'In later years Burghley was to upbraid Oxford frequently for his prodigal extravagance.' Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 19:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict with Nina Green, below)Yes you're right. 'Prodigal extravagance' is of course Lawrence Stone's phrasing for Oxford and other earls of his generation in Burghley's care. The 'upbraid frequently' certainly requires source justification. It is either my memory straying, or a violation of WP:OR. I read over a thousand pages in a week while preparing my edits and did them rapidly, but that is no excuse for such slipshod disattendance to precise references. I'll check for this tomorrow, and if I cannot find where I got the idea about Burghley upbraiding, we can note this down (and there must be quite a few things like this) for rewriting.Nishidani (talk) 20:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Good. Thanks. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 20:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

It turns out that the text I wrote can be reliably sourced, and the irony of the results of my checking, is that the source I had in mind was the Oxfordian biography by B. M. Ward:-

In later years we shall find Lord Burghley continually upbraiding Lord Oxford for his extravagance.B. M. Ward, The seventeenth Earl of Oxford, 1550-1604: from contemporary documents 1928,John Murray, London 1928, p.31

One could take exception to the adjective 'prodigal', which has drifted in from Lawrence Stone's remarks on Oxford and his generation of wards, as cited in Nelson, Monstrous Adversary (2003 p.35 where we read: 'No wonder these young men adopted a way of life of absurdly prodigal extravagance,' where Stone specifically has Oxford in mind.) I dropped the adverbial 'absurdly' and retained' prodigal', which found in Elizabethan sources for de Vere's spendthrift ways. I.e. Anthony Wood's 'the prodigal Earl of Oxford' (cited Nelson p.62)

While on this, I should note that Miss Green's tasking of Nelson for identifying Oxford's tutor Lawrence Nowell with his cousin the homonymous Dean of Lichfield, overlooks the point that the Oxfordian school made the same identification, as we can see from B.M. Ward's biography (p.20) and Charlton and Dorothy Ogburn's This Star of England, (1952) ch.2. If Nelson strays here, it looks like he does so by failing to check his notes from Oxfordian sources against the archival records and secondary literature.Nishidani (talk) 09:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Even the DNB had the identification wrong until recent years. See the new entry for the antiquary Laurence Nowell in the online edition of the DNB. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 17:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

This belongs both under this heading, and under the heading Additional Errors in Monstrous Adversary above: 'Cecil, who had risen to Baron Burghley by February, was displeased with the arrangement'(i.e. Oxford's betrothal to Anne Cecil). The page reference given in the article is to p. 71 of Monstrous Adversary, and I assume the reference is intended to e to Alan's misquotation of a letter from the French ambassador, Fenelon. The letter is transcribed and translated on my website (see Fenelon, July 1571 on the Documents page). Alan has erroneously inserted the name [Burghley] into his quotation from the letter, thereby stating that Burghley had told Fenelon he was not happy to see Anne, at her age, brought to church to marry the Earl of Oxford. In fact Fenelon is referring to what the Queen told him (Fenelon) about her own pretended reluctance to marry Alencon, since he was 'the age of the Earl of Oxford' whereas she herself was much older. Surely Wikipedia does not wish to direct readers of this article to an error this egregious in nature. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 20:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

This page deals specifically with de Vere. It is not a page dedicated to your personal review of Nelson's volume. The proper person to address those comments to is Alan Nelson, who is or was your correspondent, to judge by his kind words in acknowledgement to you in the preface. Please restrict your comments to the article as it has been redacted. If you have reliably sourced information from secondary sources to bring the page up to wikipedia standards, I'll be delighted to check it and we can work to get a better article than the one that was, and the interrupted version I was asked to suspend editing a week ago. Nishidani (talk) 21:19, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm wondering whether we can take the Fenelon citation step by step to see whether a compromise can be arrived at. Firstly, on pp.62-3 Ward quotes Lord Burghley's letter in connection with Oxford's betrothal to Anne Cecil to the effect that Burghley thinks well of Oxford and 'honour him so dearly from my heart as I do my own son', so Alan's reference to Fenelon is suspect from the outset. Secondly, historians are well aware that Fenelon's correspondence is in French, so Alan's quotation on p.71 in English while citing in his endnotes a source which is in French (Correspondance, iv. p. 186) is also suspect from the outset. Even Wikipedia's rules must allow for questioning of a cited source which is in another language from the quotation alleging given from that source. Thirdly, the letter in question is from Corresponance, which is itself a published work, and therefore Wikipedia editors can take cognizance of it. Fourthly, the letter in question is from Fenelon to Queen Catherine de Medici, and the words in question (taken from Corresponance) read:

Madame, en discourant avec la Royne d’Angleterre des choses que je mande en la lettre du Roy, nous sommes, de propos en propos, venuz à parler du pourtraict de Monseigneur vostre filz, et elle m’a dict qu’encor que ce ne soit que le créon, et que son teint n’y soit que quasi tout chafouré de charbon, si ne layssoit ce visaige de monstrer beaucoup de beaulté et beaucoup de merques de dignité et de prudence; et qu’elle avoit esté bien ayse de le veoyr ainsy meur comme d’ung homme parfaict, car me vouloit dire tout librement que mal vollontiers, estant de l’eage qu’elle est, eust elle vollu estre conduict à l’esglise pour estre maryée avec ung qui se fût monstré aussi jeune comme le comte d’Oxfort

There is no way in which a letter which begins, Madame, in discussing with the Queen of England, who told me thus and so can be turned into a letter in which Lord Burghley told me so and so, as Alan's interpolation of Lord Burghley's name into the letter has done.

The point is that the statement in the article doesn't need to be made, and since it doesn't need to be made, it can be removed if the sources on which allegedly rests turn out not to support it, no? Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 17:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The text doesn't rely on Fenelon's correspondence at this point except with the words 'was displeased with the arrangement'. I'd only feel confident of making a judgement on this had I vol.4 of Fenelon's correspondence for the period, to read the whole section from page 156 to 315 (which Ward quotes).

However, over the page in Nelson (p.72) Burghley is stated as writing to the Earl of Rutland that he, Burghley neither hoped nor sought it and: 'Truly, my Lord, my goodwill serves me to have moved such a matter as this in another direction than this is,' which, even if phrased to placate Rutland, construes as an expression of Burghley's opinion that, had he had a decisive say in the matter, he might have made a different arrangement than the one which, by his proposal of marriage, the Earl of Oxford made.

The simplest solution is simply to rephrase 'was displeased with the arrangement' as 'assured the Earl of Rutland he personally might well have thought of a different arrangement'.Nishidani (talk) 19:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Some things to consider fixing when editing resumes

Taking into consideration some of the remarks above, in addition to points raised generally over the past month.

(a) Add source as per Nina Green's request for the line:-

'In later years Burghley was to upbraid Oxford frequently for his prodigal extravagance.'

No. Nina simply didn't check the source, in Ward, at the end of the second line, which is indeed Ward p.31. The ref applies to both sentences.

'Prodigal' can be elided, and the source should read, with the template system employed, Ward 1928, p. 31 Nishidani (talk) 09:51, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Nishidani is right. I now see that Ward does say on p. 31 that 'In later years we shall find Lord Burghley continually upbraiding Oxford for his extravagance'. Ward doesn't, so far as I know, provide references later in his book which would justify his use of the phrase 'continually upbraiding', but nonetheless, that's exactly what he says on p. 31. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 17:17, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

(b) 'the sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of East Horndon' can be elided (an unnecessary specification in any case') or it should be prefaced by 'according to some sources'.

(c)The words in the lead, 'participated in military campaigns in the Northern Rebellion (1569)' are misleading as I noted above and on LessHeard vanU's page.

I suggest:'participated in two military campaigns, in the Northern Rebellion (1569-1570),..' (the appropriate section notes he participated in April-May, 1570)

(d) The section 'Shakespearean authorship question' should not head the page, but be relocated at the bottom of the page as per the DNB standard biography, since it is incidental to Oxford's life, and never figured in accounts of it for 316 years.

(e) On the matriculated impubes, the sources all say this (a) Charles Henry Cooper, Thompson Cooper (eds.) Athenae Cantabrigienses, Volume 2, 1861 (Gregg Press, 1967) p.389 (b) B. M. Ward, The seventeenth Earl of Oxford, 1550-1604: from contemporary documents, 1928 p.11; (c) Alan H. Nelson, 'Monstrous Adversary,' 2003 p.24 (d) Daphne Pearson, Edward de Vere (1550-1604): the crisis and consequences of wardship, 2005 p.14 Nishidani (talk) 10:25, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

(f):As per Nina Green's request above: 'was displeased with the arrangement' as 'assured the Earl of Rutland he personally might well have thought of a different arrangement'/ or some variant of the same consonant with the Rutland letter. Alternatively one could just elide the phrase.Nishidani (talk) 19:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Either would work, but I think the latter (eliding the phrase) might be preferable because it's difficult to know what Lord Burghley really thought. He seems to be hinting to Rutland that he would have eventually suggested a marriage between Anne Cecil and Rutland if Oxford had not stepped in with his proposal, but on the other hand, is Burghley just being diplomatic? If the phrase is kept in, I'd be inclined to cite Ward (p.62) because although Alan cites HMC Rutland, i, p. 95 as his source, the Calendar of Rutland manuscripts is available online, and the spelling in it is not the modernized spelling used in Alan's quotation on p.72 of Monstrous Adversary, which instead bears a considerable resemblance to the modern spelling version on p. 62 of Ward, so the citation perhaps properly belongs to Ward. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 20:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Let me suggest this.

'She had been pledged to Philip Sidney in August 1569, and others had apparently sought her hand. Oxford was the most eligible bachelor in England. Cecil, who had risen to Baron Burghley by February, and apparently had entertained the idea of her marrying the earl of Rutland, acquiesced. According to Nelson, Oxford's rank trumped all else.' Ward 1928, pp. 61–63Nelson 2003, pp. 71–73

My policy from the start has been to use both Ward and Nelson, and, had I not undertaken the voluntary ban, would have accompanied every key point with dual sourcing, while maintaining the most neutral narration of the story as we have it, so that readers can readily access the respective sources quickly. (Note for example re interpretations notes 25/26, where Ward's interpretation is given and then Nelson's) One of the drudges of wikiwork is that effectively, we read a thousand or more pages on any subject, often 5-6 books, and index by page everything, so that the younger generation is no longer obliged to read anything beyond a few pages, but if uncertain, can simply check in a library by following the refs to go to the precise pages.Nishidani (talk) 20:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It might be that Oxford's rank trumped all else, but it might also be that Burghley realized that Anne was infatuated with Oxford and wanted her to be happy (what little evidence there is suggests that Anne loved Oxford to the end of her life, in spite of everything). Rather than speculate, maybe we should just let all this detail (which is more about Anne and Burghley and Rutland than Oxford) go. But nonetheless, if you want to put it in, I wouldn't object. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 23:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Historians can make inferences from evidence, in fact that is what historians basically do. They generally are trained not to make inferences from the absence of evidence. There is evidence for Oxford's rank, Burghley's views on the marriage, and inferences have been drawn by RS. There is no evidence for Burghley's thoughts on Anne's motivations. The two issues are distinct. One is legitimate inference in an RS, the other pure speculation. That's why I registered the former.Nishidani (talk) 10:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Leaving aside the fact that Alan isn't a historian and thus hasn't been trained 'not to make inferences from the absence of evidence', isn't it confusing to claim, as Alan does on p. 71, that 'Evidently Oxford's rank trumped all else' when in fact Rutland was also a high-ranking Earl? Just asking, because the fine distinction Alan seems to be making between the ranking of earls in marry his daughter is lost on me and I suspect would be lost on most people. I think the factual quality of the article would be improved by omitting this sort of speculation as to Lord Burghley's motives, but that's just my opinion. I happen to like what I'd read of Lord Burghley, and I'd like to give his motives the benefit of the doubt since we don't know what they were. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 14:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

You might like to examine the use of the word 'evidently' in Nelson's several hundred pages. I have. I gather he doesn't use it as 'according to the evidence=obviously' but 'ostensibly, apparently, the odds are' etc. Nelson is a cultural historian. If you do classical Greek and Latin, you get intensive training in the language, and then write pages on 'Thucydides' and 'Tacitus', 'Sophocles' and 'Seneca', 'Plato' and 'Lucretius' (history, theatre, philosophy, etc). Once you have mastered this, you choose where to move, history, philosophy, literature etc., but even if you specialize, the historian still uses philology, the philosopher must learn how rhetoric works in literature, and the literary specialist must know how to evaluate historical evidence. Most historians down to recent times were trained this way. And it goes for Old-Middle-Elizabethan literature and documentary scholars. Mastery of texts, and then you specialize. History gets nowhere without this philological-literary preparation, and that is any English lit major of the past works historically, as an historian. To write, as Schoenbaum, May, Nelson, Chambers do does not require a doctorate in some modern faculty of history. If you write the life of someone who died 400 years ago, using archives, and the historical secondary literature, you are practising the profession of the historian, whatever your primary credentials. No one raises this point, as far as I know, except Oxfordians, almost none of whom have recognized credentials in literary theory, historical methodology, or philology. I say this without wishing in the least to imply anything negative about your personal commitment over decades to research. It is just that it looks shabby to try and discredit someone whom you disagree within on such an extremely tendentious equivocation, one which most informed readers won't concur with. I've noticed quite a few errors in Nelson myself, some you've noted here. But I notice them, after a year, in anything intricate I write, and in most books on subjects I have a detailed knowledge of. It is in the nature of things that specialists, notn infrequently, slip up, and that they do should not occasion suspicion about their qualifications, but a reflection on the intrinsic difficulties of getting anything right.

Let me tell you an anecdote about a classical scholar, which I read somewhere in Toynbee's voluminous works as a youth. He was prepossessed by grammar, and in middle age, began to refuse to read any classical author who did not express himself according to the best usage of the definitive and exhaustive German grammars on classical languages. A Latinist, he ended up constitutionally incapable to reading anything earlier than Vergil or later than Ovid. Catullus was so badly reported, he was cancelled. Propertius was deeply problematical because of bad transmission. Then Vergil's Aeneid has those 48 half lines unfinished, and some questionable grammar. Out. Then Horace, then Ovid, then Cicero, they all had blots. I think he ended his days reading grammars written in the late 19th century rather than Latin authors, because only the former expressed perfectly the ideal forms of competent Latin usage, and all real authors were too painfully distant from that ideal. Knowledge is empathy with the past, but also humility at the intrinsic limitations in our cognitive ability to know it, in Ranke's words, wie es eigentlich gewesen ist.Nishidani (talk) 22:08, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

(g)The Ref to lead on his comedies runs:"Puttenham and Meres reckon him among 'the best for comedy' in his day; but, although he was a patron of players, no specimens of his dramatic productions survive."

Correct me if I'm wrong on this but Meres marked him down as 'the best for comedy' while Puttenham classified him among the 'courtly makers', whose 'doings' would be worth finding out. The context suggests primarily poetry, but the point is, whatever the provenance of the quote from the secondary source it attributes to Puttenham a judgement made only by Meres. It's quite easy to find material in May Nelson and Ward on this, and I will supply it presently in the few days left to me, along with a few other things. Nishidani (talk) 09:54, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

New Topics for the Article

Have the editors of this page considered adding something about Oxford's participation in the Frobisher expedition and in Adrian Gilbert's Colleagues of the Fellowship for the Discovery of the North West Passage (Ward pp. 236-41, Nelson, pp. 187-9)? The topic has historical interest, and also explains where some of Oxford's capital went. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 23:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Of course. Everything must be covered, either in chronological progression or thematically.Nishidani (talk) 10:35, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Would you be interested in writing something on that topic? Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I intended doing the whole article in detail, from several RS, but cannot touch the page because of labyrinthine suspensions, topic bans, discussions, RfCs, doubts about policy, mediation, perhaps Arbcom. I have a week left before travel plans will make me incommunicado for several months. If they give me a day or two, sure, I'll write that section.Nishidani (talk) 14:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

That's unfortunate. Just when we were getting somewhere. Maybe the ban could be lifted? Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 15:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

It's the way the place works. No one is indispensable: wikipedia is based on the volume and turnover of people not on what individuals may contribute, and, in any case, the work of years can be destroyed in an hour, on both strong and flimsy grounds. It's a voluntary ban. I won't be around when it expires, which it looks like doing before I expire. But these articles have several professional scholars watching them. What I said are just the usual reminders about policy. Good luck. Nishidani (talk) 18:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, before you go away, let me wish you the best. Hope you have a great holiday. I'll probably give the article a rest until you return. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 19:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Barring snakes and spiders, which are a hobby of mine, I'll be back around early February. So, sure, let's set that down as a date for collaborating to get this article up to snuff, at least to GA standard. A splendid gesture, much appreciated. Mind you, all sorts of things, from substantial improvements to destructive mobbing of what we have, can occur in the meantime, but we can go through it with a fine toothcomb together at that date. Regards Nishidani (talk) 21:35, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

There's no reason, technically, why this should be removed but

the sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of East Horndon.

I have placed it provisorily here. Two RS state it, and a private researcher denies it to be confirmed in the records. Normally, to edit it out on personal research grounds would infringe WP:V, and WP:OR. And I personally see no reason to do as I am doing now, except for this, that it is not necessary to the text. If I find however that this is confirmed in two or three other modern RS, I will reinsert it. Any editor who sees this differently however will be within their rights to reinsert it. And I will not oppose such an edit, though I think both courtesy and commitment to essentials provide a ground to simply expunge the point, which Nina thinks controversial.Nishidani (talk) 19:41, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your doing this. The ultimate source of the error is The Complete Peerage, cited by Alan as his source, and Alan has merely repeated the error. It's not vital that this error be deleted from the article, but it would improve the factual quality of the article because this error has led to other errors on Alan's part, including his claim that Richard Tyrrell was Charles Tyrrell's brother. This entail in Richard Tyrrell's will makes it clear that he was not Charles Tyrrell's brother:

>Item, I will and bequeath unto Edward, my son, all my lands and tenements with their appurtenances to him and to his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue that all my said manors, lands, tenements & hereditaments with their appurtenances except the manor of Sundon shall remain and be unto Thomas Tyrrell, my eldest brother’s son, and to his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof to Henry Tyrrell, my second brother, and to the heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof unto Robert Tyrrell, my brother, and to his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue, the remainder thereof unto Eustace Tyrrell, my brother, and his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof unto Charles Tyrrell that married the Countess of Oxford and his heirs males lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof to Charles Tyrrell, servant to the Lord Rich, and to his heirs males lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof unto the right heirs of me, the said Richard Tyrrell, forever;<

In my view the entail in the will of Richard Tyrrell above also suggests that it was likely the Charles Tyrrell who was the 'servant to the Lord Rich' who was actually the sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Horndon.

I understand the problem with using primary source documents, but sometimes it's only primary source documents which reveal the errors in otherwise reliable secondary sources.

Nothing earth-shattering turns on whether the error is left in, or removed, from the article, but I think it would improve the factual quality of the article if it were removed, particularly since it's not vital to an article on Edward de Vere. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 20:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I should perhaps have added that it was because of Alan's mention of the will of Charles Tyrrell's alleged brother Richard on p. 41 of Monstrous Adversary that I ordered a copy of Richard Tyrrell's will from the National Archives and transcribed it, only to find that it doesn't say what Alan claims it says. Alan writes on p. 41:

>Although Margery and Charles are first identified as husband and wife in a will signed on 13 May 1566 by Charles' brother Richard of Assheton, Essex . . . .<

But in fact, as noted above, the entail in Richard Tyrrell's will demonstrates that Charles Tyrrell was not Richard Tyrrell's brother, and indicates, moreover, that there was another Charles Tyrrell, 'servant to the Lord Rich', who was likely the Charles Tyrrell who was the 'sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron' in East Horndon. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 20:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I can't see it, but then I am not an expert on the Peerage nor on Elizabethan documents. If the word 'brother' is not used of the first Richard Tyrrell, who married Oxford's widow, neither is it used of the second Tyrrell, who was the servant to the Lord Rich. Where's the proof as opposed to a different inference, that escaped the Peerage, and the other authoritative sources?Nishidani (talk) 22:05, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you meant to write 'If the word 'brother' is not used of the first Charles Tyrrell, who married Oxford's widow, neither is it used of the second Tyrrell, who was the servant to the Lord Rich'. Exactly. When Richard Tyrrell is referring to his brothers in the entail, he calls them 'brother'. When he refers to both the Charles Tyrrells, who were obviously relations of some sort or he wouldn't have included them in the entail, he doesn't call them brothers because neither of the Charles Tyrrells was his brother. Alan simply misread the will. Moreover all the sources are clear that Richard Tyrrell of Asshedon was most definitely not one of the 'six sons of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron, in East Horndon', so if he and Oxford's stepfather, Charles Tyrrell, were brothers, as Alan claims, then obviously Charles Tyrrell couldn't have been a son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron either. So Alan, without realizing it, in one of his statements on p. 41 disproves another of his statements on p. 41.

I just don't see the point of referring Wikipedia readers to a page in Alan's book on which this sort of confusion reigns. I could point out another error of Alan's concerning Charles Tyrrell's alleged annulled marriage on p. 41, but I think people's heads are spinning already. :-) It just seems pragmatic to omit the statement concerning Charles Tyrrell's background from the article entirely. It doesn't add anything to the article, it's almost certainly wrong, and it leads Wikipedia readers to a page in Alan's book where there are further errors. If it stays in the article, I won't lose any sleep over it, but I think it would improve the article to omit it. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 22:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Alan's comment on p.41 about Charles Tyrrell's alleged annulled marriage is worth considering because it is yet another error of a type which raises the question of whether Alan's book can be considered a reliable source. On p. 41, Alan writes:

([Oxford's stepfather] Charles [Tyrrell's] prior marriage to Agnes Chitwode alias Odell had been annulled by the Court of Delegates on 6 April 1560.)

Alan cites as his source 'BL MS Add. Charter 44271 (annullment)'. However if Alan actually looked at this manuscript, he misread it, because there is an account of this rather famous case in Strype's Annals. But more importantly there is this account of it, taken from a 1559 Act of Parliament, on pp. 327-8 of Documents of the English Reformation 1526-170, ed. by Gerald Bray, c1994:

http://books.google.com/books?id=UGi6WWtzkJYC&pg=PA327&lpg=PA327&ots=LCCGcJwbv4&dq=tyrrell+chetwood&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&sig=31Cb4v0HyfvtmmNvya_qmvamPzM

>23. And where one pretended sentence has heretofore been given in the Consistory of Paul's before certain judges delegate, by the authority legatine of the late Cardinal Pole, by reason of a foreign usurped power and authority, against Richard Chetwood, Esq., and Agnes his wife, by the name of Agnes Woodhall, at the suit of Charles Tyrrell, gentleman, in a cause of matrimony solemnized between the said Richard and Agnes, as by the same pretended sentence more plainly doth appear, from which sentence the said Richard and Agnes have appealed to the court of Rome, which appeal does there remain, and yet is not determined; may it therefore please your Highness that it may be enacted by the authority aforesaid, that if sentence in the said appeal shall happen to be given at the said court of Rome for and in the behalf of the said Richard and Agnes, for the reversing of the said pretended sentence, before the end of threescore days next after the end of this session of this present Parliament (i.e. by 07 July 1559), that then the same shall be judged and taken to be good and effectual in the law, and shall and may be used, pleaded and allowed in any court or place within this realm; anything in this Act or any other Act or statute contained to the contrary notwithstanding.

>And if no sentence shall be given at the court of Rome in the said appeal for the reversing of the said pretended sentence before the end of the said threescore days, that then it shall and may be lawful for the said Richard and Agnes, and either of them, at any time hereafter, to commence, take, sue and prosecute their said appeal from the said pretended sentence, and for the reversing of the said pretended sentence, within this realm, in such like manner and form as was used to be pursued or might have been pursued, within this realm, at any time since the twenty-fourth year of the reign of the said late King Henry VIII (1532-33), upon any sentences given in the court or courts of any archbishop within this realm.<

>And that such appeal as so hereafter shall be taken or pursued by the said Richard Chetwood and Agnes, or either of them, and the sentence that herein or thereupon shall hereafter be given, shall be judged to be good and effectual in the law to all intents and purposes; any law, custom, usage, canon, constitution or any other matter or cause to the contrary notwithstanding.<

The bottom line is that this Charles Tyrrell, whoever he was (and it seems likely he was the Charles Tyrrell who was 'servant to the Lord Rich', not the Charles Tyrrell who was Oxford's stepfather), was never married to Agnes Chetwood. Charles Tyrrell was merely the person who instigated the suit to have the marriage between Agnes Woodhall and Richard Chetwood annulled.

Considering that the case in question is well enough known to have been part of a 1559 Act of Parliament, why did Alan make the egregious errors not only of falsely claiming that Oxford's stepfather Charles Tyrrell was married to Agnes Chitwode and that the marriage was annulled, but also of citing a manuscript source which demonstrates that Charles Tyrrell was not married to Agnes Chitwode? I'll leave that up to readers of this message.

Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 17:01, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Nina, you cannot technically wage a campaign against Nelson's book on this page, which is not a forum or venue for such issues and in violation of WP:BLP. Much of what you contest is in Ward, Debrett's Peerage, Pearson (wh has been severely criticized by specialists ) and DNB and other sources. You are singling him out in what looks to the outside viewer as a personal attempt to disinvalidate his recognized status as an Elizabethan scholar, and you lack the public credentials to do this. No one here can conduct research and challenge an RS adducing these private researches. I will be quite happy to collaborate, but only if you drop this monocular assault. Nelson has written 500 detailed pages and has been peer-reviewed. If you wish to be cited, you must find a peer-reviewing non-partisan journal that enjoys scholarly respect, write an objective review of it, and if, accepted, it can be cited here. I could tear apart a lot of stuff on your page (as I showed earlier, you get things wrong), but I don't. There are tight rules governing what editors can and cannot do, and you are attempting, I've no doubt with a sincere bona fides, to do things that subvert the protocols here. Read them very carefully.Nishidani (talk) 18:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

"disinvalidate"? That's an excretable concoction! Tom Reedy (talk) 21:13, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I guess I don't understand how Wikipedia determines what is, or is not, a reliable source. As I've said before (and forgive me for repeating myself), Alan is not a historian and his book has not been reviewed by professional historians. I've already demonstrated here that there are significant errors in Alan's handling of factual material from primary source manuscripts. Alan's own transcripts and other highly respected published sources such as Bray's Documents of the Reformation (cited above) establish that what Alan says in his book about the contents of certain primary source documents doesn't factually represent what the documents actually say. I could cite many more examples of factual errors in Alan's book, but leaving that aside, and merely taking the other points I've just mentioned into consideration, at what point does Wikipedia itself begin to question whether it can simply cite Alan's book as a reliable source, or whether Wikipedia itself has to say 'Maybe we can cite Alan's book for some things, but we have to be cautious'. I'm merely asking, because I really don't know. I'm new to Wikipedia, and don't understand its policies. Just by way of example, Wikipedia doesn't accept Brief Chronicles as a reliable source, yet Brief Chronicles is included in the bibliographies of The Modern Language Association and The Folger Shakespeare Library. So why does Wikipedia not accept Brief Chronicles as a reliable source, while accepting a book written by someone who is not a historian and whose book has not been reviewed by reliable historians? I'm sincerely confused about Wikipedia's criteria for assessing what constitutes a reliable source, and who actually makes that determination.

That said, I do want to co-operate with you on editing the article when you return from holidays, and so I'm quite willing to refrain from further comments on errors in Alan's book in the interim. Agreed?

You state that you could 'tear apart a lot of stuff' on my page (I assume you mean the Documents page on my website). If so, I would welcome that. I'm always revising the summaries to the documents on that page in order to reflect new information and correct earlier errors. Any help any editor of this page can provide in correcting errors on the Documents page of my website would be appreciated.

Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 18:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Nelson's book has been reviewed, often favourably, by many scholars of the period. You dismiss this, saying they aren't historians. Neither are you, by the same criterion, and I say this without venom. It is no great boast to say that one can tear apart Looney, Ogburn Sr. Ogburn Jr, Farina, Malim, Anderson and all the rest. It is very painful, if a duty, to read their books, the inferential overload is appalling. I do think it admirable that you pursue archival research, but the argument can never be made, because though you may correct oversights (a valuable service to the academy) a positive argument for the theory cannot be constructed because it is purely inferential. I mentioned above that the problem is one of a lack of thorough understanding of fact, inference, proof, and probability. Generally Nelson has this. I've seen no evidence those who criticize him do. In any case, this is all immaterial to the problems of this page. One last point. Most first-rate poets in English wrote better than the de Vere whose poems we know, at the same age. No one wrote better than Shakespeare. Nishidani (talk) 21:14, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I note the words 'Alan's book has been reviewed, often favourably', from which I deduce that even among non-historians there have been unfavourable reviews of Alan's book, and of course there have been no reviews of it at all by professional historians. Daphne Pearson's book began life as a dissertation for a Ph.D. in history, and of course was eventually reviewed by professional historians, and as you note above, has been 'severely criticized by specialists'. If Alan's book were to be reviewed by professional historians, who is to say whether it might not get the same treatment, considering the factual errors it contains?

Well I've read several reviews calling is exhaustive, definitive, etc. The only point he's criticized on his that it's jolly hard reading given the number of primary documents reproduced. Not a classic narrative history. Pearson's book is badly organized, and she makes, it is said, deductions that are not always persuasive, etc. But at the same time has a host of invaluable, exhaustvely analysed material on an obscure topic, land. This is customary with secondary sources, that they are subject to nit-picking which however in no way undermines their use as secondary sources in academia. Go through most academic books with a fine toothcomb and, as Paul Barlow said, you'll find a good deal to correct, much less, if they go through the peer-review before approval process common at places like Yale and Harvard etc., than the hopeless mess of popular books that simply repeat or mingle and patch in a lot of material from similar books in the genre. Nishidani (talk) 07:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

In any event, my question was about the criteria which Wikipedia uses to determine what is, and what is not, a reliable source, and who makes that determination. This has nothing to do with my own qualifications, or with anyone's qualifications, for that matter, although you keep coming back to that point. It has to do with Wikipedia's criteria. On what basis has Wikipedia determined that Alan's book is a reliable source, and that Brief Chronicles is not a reliable source, and who makes those determinations? Just asking, because I really don't know.

Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 00:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Nina, see WP:RS and WP:FRINGE. Basically, Wikipedia reflects the establishment status quo, or the scholary consensus, if you will. Its accepted sources are reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, such as current academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks. No original research is allowed as a source, see WP:OR. Primary sources can only be used to verify the text and cannot be cited exclusively to verify a statement or interpretation. I.e. I can use a primary source to make sure a quoted section is spelled right, but I can't use it to counter a secondary source.

Nelson is an accepted source because he is a recognized orthodox scholar with a university connection and his book was published by a university press.

Books, journals, and Web sites that advocate a point of view in opposition to the mainstream academic consensus (such as Oxfordism) are not considered reliable sources. In other words, you cannot source an article about Oxford using Looney or Ogburn.

Brief Chronicles is not a reliable source because it advocates a position directly opposed to the academic consensus that William Shakespeare of Stratford was the primary author of the works attributed to him, and so is a fringe journal with no real academic peer review that mainstream academics accept.

Fringe sources are considered primary sources for the topic of Oxfordism, and so cannot even be used as stand-alone sources in the Oxfordism article. They can be used to describe what Oxfordism is, but even then they have to be accompanied by a reliable mainstream source and it has to be made clear that the view is not accepted by mainstream scholars.

I know it's confusing, and that's why misunderstandings and clashes about what is a usable source often occur. Here's an example that might help:

In the Oxfordian article, I can say something like, "Oxfordians believe that Oxford had to hide his authorship because of the stigma of print, a social convention that supposedly restricted their literary works to private and courtly audiences—as opposed to commercial endeavours—at the risk of social disgrace if violated." I can then source that to a passage in Ogburn and another mainstream source such as Shapiro. Better yet, I can source it to Shapiro quoting Ogburn, thereby turning Ogburn into a secondary source.

What I cannot do is say, "Oxford had to hide his authorship because of the stigma of print, a social convention that restricted their literary works to private and courtly audiences—as opposed to commercial endeavours—at the risk of social disgrace if violated," and then source that to Ogburn only. I have to make it clear that it is a view held by Oxfordians, not a true statement by the academy.

That's a real simple example but I hope it gives you a better idea of what we're talking about when we say "reliable source". Tom Reedy (talk) 05:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Also see WP:Rs#Scholarship: "Care should be taken with journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view. A claim of peer review is not an indication that the journal is respected, or that any meaningful peer review occurs. Journals that are not peer reviewed by the wider academic community should not be considered reliable, except to show the views of the groups represented by those journals." Tom Reedy (talk) 19:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Nishidami writes: "Nelson's inferences, which come from one of the ranking world authorities on Elizabethan primary documents" -documents which he is is unable to read in the original. Only two Stratfordians, Mrs.Pearson and Mr. Nelson, have done any original research on the Earl of Oxford. And since Nelson has relied on Daphne who does read Latin, for scores of his references,we must logically conclude that Daphne has the superior academic authority. However as Oxfordian Paul in a peer reviewed article has shown that in many respects her own work is also filled with errors, the only logical conclusion is that there is no Stratfordian "ranking world authority" on the life of the Seventeenth Earl Of Oxford.Charles Darnay (talk) 22:21, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

The ranking status of scholars is determined by university positions, publishers, peer reviews etc. It is not determined by imaginary Dickensian characters. Of course even the greatest scholars get things wrong. The more wide ranging and the more original ones research, the more room there is for slip ups over details. Archival research entails a lot of note-taking and organisation of material. Anyone who is collating a mass of original scholarship and drawing new conclusions, will find it very difficult to "cover all bases" over details. As I say, the more original the work, the more likely it is that errors will slip in, because even expert peer reviewers will not have the information with which to identify them. The problem is compounded if all concerned also have to contend with a publisher's deadline. But it is not up to us to decide these matters. As Nishidani says, this all pales into insignificance compared with Oxfordian literature. I read two pages of Anderson once, but simply could not continue because the number of preposterous inferences, non-sequiturs and instances of misinformation had become overwhelming. Ogburn was worse. Nelson's errors, such as they are, are trivial in comparison. Paul B (talk) 12:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

"It is not up to us to decide these matters."Speak for yourself,Paul.By their fruits we shall know them, and you.

Are you are seriouslhy claiming that the hundreds of historical errors in Nelson's book were the result of a publisher's deadline? The fiends didn't even give him time to learn Latin.That by publishing numerous malicious "errors" , the ever accelerating quantity of the same renders him the more academically crediible.

If so, Mao Tse Tung's "History of the Chinese Revolution" must be one of the most scholarly tomes of all time. Or how about the collected speaches of Dr.Fidel Castro? Or consider the work of Dr.Goebels who certainly held access to one of the largest collections of Judaica in world history.What's more, none of the above three ever received a negative academic review during the entire course of their tenure in power.

Nishidmi attempted to exalt Nelson to the position of a world wide authority.Your criteria of what constitues s world wide authority are deplorably inadequate as formulated .And if original research were not banned here,I would entertain you with my personal researches into Houston Baker(former head of PMLA)who,abetted by some 87 other peer reviewed members of the Duke falculty,gave a peer review to now disbarred District Attorney Mike Nifong(who posseses a higher degree in law) and his Great Duke Rape Hoax.

Or(and this is directly pertinent to the present point as distinct from your overreaching generalizations)we might consider the case of peer reviewed Donald Foster whose works on Shakespeare and the Jon Benet Ramsey murder case(among others) are on record as containing more logical and historical errors than all of Pearson,Nelson and any Oxfordian biographers of Oxford who ever lived.And Tom Reedy guru David Kathman placed his admiration for Foster's labors on permanent record in the DNB Shakespeare article.

By the way,while you are clairifyiing your previous criteria, please specify the specific two pages in Mark Anderson(who is has never been a subject of discussion here and is therefore irrelevent to the exposure of Nishidami's egregrious editorial misconduct) in which you pretend to find errors equivalent to the total of those contained in Nelson's book.Otherwise show the belated honesty to delete the above misinformation. Charles Darnay (talk) 19:10, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Your laughable references to Goebbels, Castro and Duke rape case (!) just indicate a total lack of a sense of proportion and even relevance. You write "'It is not up to us to decide these matters.' Speak for yourself, Paul. By their fruits we shall know them, and you." Well, we don't rely on quotations from Jesus; we rely on Wikipedia policy, which is to be found in WP:RS and WP:V. So, no, I am not speaking for myself. I am speaking for Wikipedia. As it happens, you also misrepresent Jesus, but frankly, that's irreleveant. My bet is that you have never undertaken any original research in your life, so you have no idea how difficult it is to cover all bases when uncovering new material. Actually, it's almost impossible. Your comments about how many errors are "on record" regarding Don Foster are meaningless, since you have no source for them. As for Anderson, the pages in question were on the Ashbourne portrait. Paul B (talk) 20:59, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

What constitutes original research

I just read this on the Wikipedia page on original research:

>If no source exists for something you want to add to Wikipedia, it is "original research".<

I'm a little surprised because my earlier editing of the article in which I cited primary sources was entirely deleted on the ground that it was 'original research'. But it wasn't original research by Wikipedia's definition. I was merely citing primary sources for certain facts, which Wikipedia allows. Original research, by Wikipedia's definition, is adding something for which no source exists. A very different thing. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 01:51, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Read this: Primary, secondary and tertiary sources, especially "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."

Instead of looking for a loophole that would allow you to do what several experienced editors have told you is not allowed, why not just learn how Wikipedia wants it done? It's not that difficult, and it would save a lot of grief and time that could be better spent creating content. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Tom, thanks for your input. I'm most definitely 'not looking for a loophole'. I'm trying to find a way to make the article more factually accurate. The Wikipedia policy you've quoted above supports my position. I made no 'interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources'. I merely cited primary sources to support statements which were already in the article and had been there for months before I ever saw the article. In other words, I merely provided sources for statements in the article which were unsourced. Yet despite the fact that what I did is consistent with Wikipedia policy, and was commented on and permitted to stand by a Wikipedia editor at the time I made the edits, all the sourcing I'd added to the article was deleted recently. I would suggest that what we have to keep in mind here is that in this article we're not dealing with the authorship issue. We're dealing with Oxford's biography. My sourcing of statements in the article was consistent with Wikipedia policy, and made the article more factually accurate. Nina Green205.250.205.73 (talk) 16:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Nina, Nishidani was the editor who originally cut them from the main page, and I didn't review them all at the time since I trust his judgement, but if you'll copy all of those passages that used a primary source here (perhaps in a new section), we can go over them one-by-one. You may be right, and if you are they can be restored, but IIRC the ones I did peruse were obvious interpretations and not mere facts. (The one I remember concerned the second husband of Margery Golding.) Tom Reedy (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2010 (UTC)