Talk:John Gibson (American soldier)

Bad sources...

Some of the John Gibson information is derived from the historical fiction writings of A.W. Eckert. This should be removed and more reliable sources found. TruthBastion (talk) 23:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I beleive I have removed the content in question, thank you for pointing that out. The majority of this article is sourced from Woollen and Gugin, which are qutie reliable. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 12:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Still bad sources...

Any content that mentions Koonay is pure Eckert, or quoted or paraphrased from Eckert. Likewise the inclusion of Jacob Greathouse as a co-ringleader of the massacre is a modern fiction. Gibson was captured and adopted by Delaware, not Mingo Indians. I have never seen a period document that cites him as living in "southwest Virginia" during his captivity, which is made more unlikely by his being an adopted Delaware. There is a better bio of him, though a bit cleansed, in the biography of his nephew, John Bannister Gibson. The family did not want to acknowledge his Indian country wife and child. There is some better correspondence between he (JBG) and Draper about his uncle, though it is I believe still unpublished, and I suppose not any good for Wiki. TruthBastion (talk) 07:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Gugin states that Gibson's wife was killed in a massacre by white settlers, but give no names. It says his wife was the sister of Chief Logan, but mentions nothing about their children. It also reads like he abandoned his wife and returned to trading, it it was in that period that his wife was killed in a massacre by settlers. I think the article should at minimum reflect that. You are discounting Gugin as a poor source. Why? Do you believe that the Indiana Historical Society is not reliable? It seems to be acceptable by the standards of WP:RS. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 14:17, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you should find a better source or sources than Gugin. First, if you check the Wiki entry for Logan, in the discussion section, you will see that he was not a chief, so calling him "chief Logan" just perpetuates that myth. I have no idea where the "abandonded" his wife part comes from. See Rev. David McClure's diary for brief discussion of Gibson's relationship with his Indian wife, likewise missionary John Lacey in 1773. Gibson's wife was not Logan's biological sister, all of whom in 1774 were either dead or likely past child bearing age. This is an Iroquois kinship term. The other woman who died in the massacre is called his "mother", again a kinship term, as the Moravian records are clear on Logan's mother passing away in the 1740's. All close female relatives on your mother's side, such as aunts and cousins could be called mother or sister. I would rather see nothing mentioned about the "sister" if the other choice is modern myths by researchers who did not dig deep enough. TruthBastion (talk) 15:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I have to disagree here a bit. First, as it is now this paragraph has no reference at all, and is entirely Oringal research, as far as I can tell.

On April 30, 1774, a group of Virginia frontiersmen led by Daniel Greathouse murdered a number of Mingos, among them Gibson's wife, who was pregnant and caring for their infant daughter. These Mingo had been living near the mouth of Yellow Creek, and had been lured to the cabin of Joshua Baker, a settler and rum trader who lived across the Ohio River from their village. The Natives in Baker’s cabin were all murdered, except for Gibson's infant child, who was spared with the intention of giving her to her father. At least two canoes were dispatched from the Yellow Creek village, but they were repelled by Greathouse’s men concealed along the river. In all, approximately a dozen were murdered in the cabin and on the river.

Additionally, using diaries and memiors are Primary sources and their use is discouraged. Gugin is a good and reliable source, a product and numerous editors at the Indiana Historical Society and offer a well rounded look at Gibson's life. And given that is is less than three years old, it is probably the most recent book published about Gibson. Also, while I understand that sister had different meanings, in the source Gugin, the term sister is used and no other context is given. Woollen uses the same term. Unless you have a source that says otherwise, I suggest we just leave it "relative", and footnote "sister". You have also removed my statement that Gibson returned to trading, and was away while the massacre happened, which leave the reader wondering why Gibson lived, but his wife died. (This fact is suppoted by Gugin) You also have to leave in that Gibson was on the British side of the war, otherwise is not really clear, because why would he take the side of the murderers of his wife? While I do not have a source that shows you are wrong in what you are saying, I do have two sources to show what I am saying is correct. I have removed the information sourced from Ekart and reverte the article back to its state before those additions were made. At that time, the entire article was sourced from Woollen and Gugin. Woollen can be read online for verification, and I have Gugin available to me. Could you please add sources to the article to substantiate the paragraph of information you added that is above? I would like to be able to remove the accuracy tag from the article. Could you also please provide specific examples of what is currently in the article that is innacurate, and provide a source to show that is. Then we can try to resolve and descrepanies between the two sources currently used, and your new source. Thanks. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 15:31, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Gugin is not a good source. Gibson was an Indian trader. Like most traders, he had an Indian "wife" for companionship and defense while in Indian country. This did not mean he had a house and household with her, it means he slept with her when he was passing through and enjoyed the protection being married to a prominent leader's relative offered. Gibson's home and business were back in the Pittsburgh area. Gibson never lived at the Yellow Creek camp, he was not "away on business", he just plain did not live there. To state he was "away" when the massacre occurred is to imply he lived there. I don't know what you mean by the "British" side in the war? We, that is all "Americans" were British at the time. The American Revolution was still a year off. Gibson supported Lord Dunmore, the Royal Governor of Virginia, and his country, Great Britain, not "the murderers of his wife". And if you check, he did indeed however work side by side with those murderers while under Dunmore and does not appear to have been greatly bothered by her loss. You also reincluded the false information that he was captured by Mingo and lived in Virginia. And now you have included he spoke their language. If you don't like my rewrite, fine. But if you don't take out the error filled information you obtained from Gugin, I likely will. Find some other sources. Are those really the only two books you can find? Your sources are bad, no matter who wrote them. TruthBastion (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, I do not disagree with you that you may be correct in what you are saying. I am asking you, do you have a source for it. A book, a website? Something where what you are saying can be verified? I have two sources for what I am saying, and what is in the article. Can you please direct me to where I can confirm what you are adding, and properly reference it within the article? You are discounting Gugin as a poor source. Why? Do you believe that the Indiana Historical Society is not reliable? It seems to be acceptable by the standards of WP:RS. Also, In Lord Dunmore's War he was on the British side - American Independence was still years off. Woollen and Gugin both include information saying he was captured while trading on the frontier during Pontiac's Rebellion, and lived among them for years. It was in that time he married Logan's sister.. After time he resumed trading.. etc. Again, please just provide a source for you statements that way we can try and resolve the discrepancies. —Charles Edward ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 20:07, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I will try and direct you to better sources. And yes, if you are getting this information from Gugin, then in this particular case, Gugin is not reliable. Surely you are aware that even the best researchers and historians occasionally get sloppy, lazy, or make poor choices of source material? And no, I don't believe that being published by the Indiana Historical Society makes the writing or research behind it sacrosanct. Second, as I already tried to explain, yes Gibson, like Lord Dunmore and George Washington for that matter, was British. He did not side with "them", he was "them". I still don't understand what point you are trying to make about the "British", when all of the whites involved were British. Yes, Gibson was captured with other traders during Pontiac's Rebellion. He was not however captured by the Mingo or Logan. He was captured by Delaware Indians and adopted into the family of Neolin, the Delaware prophet. For news of his actual capture, see The Wilderness Trail By Charles Augustus Hanna, page 370. A speech given by Shawnee Indians in 1763 included the information, "Mr. [John] Baird and [John] Gibson were taken by the Delaware Indian called Sir William Johnson, [White Eyes] and his people at the Muskingum Town..." Please consult "The Tuscarawas Valley in Indian Days, by Russel H. Booth Jr. He quotes the Rev. Charles Beatty on his contact with Gibson and Neolin in 1766 and describes Gibson as being a trader "...who was taken prisoner in the late war, by the Indians, given to this Neolin, and adopted into his family." See Wiki on Neolin for who he was. It was not until some point after this that Gibson took a Mingo wife, and he may well have had a Delaware or Shawnee "wife" as well. Unpublished confirmation of some of this can also be found in the Draper interviews with Gibson's nephew, John Bannister Gibson. The first mention of any Indian wife comes from a 1772 entry in the Diary of David McClure, edited by Franklin B. Dexter and published by the Knickerbocker Press, "The greater part of the Indian traders keep a squaw, & some of them a white woman as a temporary wife. Was sorry to find friend Gibson in the habit of the first. They allege the good policy of it, as necessary to a successful trade." The first time a wife is mentioned as being related to Logan is a year later in 1773 in some of the Quaker diaries which are published in various sources. Since he was captured by and adopted by Delaware Indians, it is not likely he took a Mingo wife until after he returned to trading, when McClure's comments, likely a quote from Gibson himself, make sense. Logan himself did not live in the Ohio Country until after Pontiac's was over. What do Gugin's and Woollen's footnotes reveal their sources to be for information on Gibson? As for my description of the events across from Yellow Creek, it is a compilation from Jefferson's Notes, which include depositions from various parties, including some of the actual killers, associated with the Yellow Creek Massacre. I don't know what Gugin's sources were for that period of Gibson's life. Are they footnoted? TruthBastion (talk) 03:27, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Changes

I removed some of the fictional elements, but John Gibson still needs help from some better sources. TruthBastion (talk) 06:39, 31 July 2009 (UTC)