Talk:London Victory Celebrations of 1946

Polish or English?

IT IS NOT TRUE, THAT 303 SQUADRON WAS A PART OF ROYAL AIR FORCE!!! It was part of Polish Air Force - the independent force, having also other squadrons: 300, 301, 302, 304, 305, 306, 307, 308, 309, 315, 316, 317 and 318!. The commanding officers of 303 sqn 1941-1946 were Polish, pilots and mechanics were Polish - it is the historical fact!

Sorry, but I think you've made a mistake. The RAF 303 (Polish) Squadron, as its name indicates, was an RAF squadron. It had an RAF logo on its side as well as a smaller Polish Air Force logo. For a time, it even had a British squadron commander. Most of its pilots and ground crew were Polish, and it was the highest-scoring RAF unit in the Battle of Britain.Chumchum7 (talk) 11:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Commonwealth parade?

I moved the following unreferenced claim from main article:

However, this was also a misunderstanding as it was a parade of British Commonwealth & Colonial forces, and only flag parties of foreign allies took part. 303 Squadron was part of the RAF, not the Polish air force. For example, no Russian forces paraded nor Brazilian forces, although Brazilian forces fought at Monte Cassino. The size of Allied participation was irrelevant. Incidentally, China which also claim to be the fourth largest Ally, was not invited neither.

This explanation is proven false by the references I added. From 'The Illustrated London News - Victory Parade Number, issued June 15, 1946': Headed by the Guards band the representatives of Allied forces were led by the United States, whose contingent included the Marine Corps. After the American contingent came the troops of China, occupying the place in the procession originally reserved for USSR, and behind them cane contingents with a bewildered variety of flags and uniforms - France, Belgium, Brazil, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, Ethiopia, Greece, Iran, Iraq, Luxembourg, Mexico, Nepal, Netherlands, Norway and Transjordan. Apart from the USSR, only Poland and Yugoslavia were not represented among our Allies.... And also from 'Question of Honor' book: American troops, who were in a place of honor at the head of the nine-mile parade, were followed -- in a kaleidoscope of uniforms, flags, and martial music -- by Czechs and Norwegians, Chinese and Dutch, French and Iranians, Belgians and Australians, Canadians and South Africans. There were Sikhs in turbans, high-stepping Greek evzoni in pom-pommed shoes and white pleated skirts, Arabs in fezzes and kaffiyehs, grenadiers from Luxembourg, gunners from Brazil. As we can see, both Chinsese and Brazilians were represented; Poles were not.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

A review of the official programme of the celebration makes it clear that with the exception of honour guards for the flags of each nation invited and representatives of certain airforces (i.e. United States of America (both Army and Naval), France, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Yugoslavia), only units from Commonwealth/Empire nations took part. Varsovian (talk) 14:52, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Controversies section

I propose deleting the section regarding the date of the parade. It is very clear from The Official Programme of the Victory Celebrations that the parade took place on 8 June 1946!

Dear Varsovian, please read this[[1]][[2]] so you can get a wider piture. Sorry but I don't have time at the moment to discuss this with you but I will in a near future.--Jacurek (talk) 16:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

There are severe problems with both those. I place no faith at all in “A Question of Honor: The Kosciuszko Squadron: Forgotten Heroes of World War II”. The authors claim “none Of 303's Pilots took part in the fly-past. None marched in the parade. For they were all Polish -- and Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government”. This statement is flatly contradicted by the memoirs of General Anders, The Times newspaper, Dr Ostrowski and Mr Falkowski (and indeed this WP article). I also place very little faith in Kwan Yuk Pan’s article. He claims “the country [Poland] was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946.” This is of course flatly contradicted by the official programme of the parade. He goes on to say “The ground was laid two years ago when Mr Blair formally expressed regret to Poland for the 1946 parade snub.” A scan of the letter he refers to is at http://www.polandinexile.com/vp4.htm . The word “Blair” is nowhere in the letter and the letter actually says “We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part”. Not ‘that Polish contingents were not invited’! With these problems in mind, I propose that these two sources be used for nothing more than support for the statement that “The parade is also notable for claims that all Polish servicemen were excluded from taking part.”Varsovian (talk) 09:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Varsovian, the link to the letter you provided is unrelated to the 1946 Parade fiasco.--Jacurek (talk) 20:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Lack of Polish participation section

Rather than follow the model of Jacurek (constant editing of article, i.e 17 edits in under three hours!), I will list here the points of the current wording which I feel can be improved. If there is no discussion within 24 hours, I will rewrite the article as needed.

“some claim they are erroneous because one Polish air force unit was invited to take part in the parade.” We are agreed that at least one Polish air force unit was invited. Therefore it is a logical impossibility that Poles were excluded. Therefore the words “some claim they” are not needed. The Official Programme of the parade states that Poland was invited to parade her flag, along with an honour guard, and representatives of her air force, not just a single unit. I propose removing your insertions.

“On 6 July 1945 the British government officially recognised installed by the Soviet Union Polish communist Provisional Government of National Unity” Is it accurate to describe this government as communist? The Prime Minister: Edward Osóbka-Morawski from the Polska Partia Socjalistyczna, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Agriculture and Agricultural Reform was Peasants’ Party leader Stanisław Mikołajczyk. Neither were communists.

“the London-based legitimate Polish government in exile.” The word “legitimate” is opinion and not neutral point of view. The Provisional Government of National Unity was internationally recognised and represented Poland at the United nations.

“Therefore the 1946 invitations to the victory parade were sent to the new Soviet installed communist Provisional Government of National Unity” The fact that the invitations were sent to the Provisional Government of National Unity is confirmed by The Times newspaper quote (quoted in Dr Ostrowski’s book, I am attempting to find an online scan of the article in question) and by Mr Falkowski’s article

Rudolf Falkowski’s work is not self published. It is written by Rudolf Falkowski, who flew with 635, 639 and 303 squadrons, and first appeared on www.polishsquadronsremembered.com which is created and maintained by Wilhelm Ratuszynski.

“the Polish Armed Forces in the West which represented Poland and its government” The internationally recognised government of the time was the Provisional Government of National Unity. More importantly by June 1946, the Polish Armed Forces in the West were not under the command of the Polish government in exile

“invitations were extended to representatives of only one Polish airmen unit” All the sources I have seen (including Dr Ostowski’s book and Mr Falkowski’s article) refer to western command Polish fighter pilots, not specifically to 303 squadron. Please provide sources stating only one unit was invited.Varsovian (talk) 09:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Jacurek: Please stop inserting into this article the erroneous claim that only one Polish unit was invited. There are now multiple sources (including two references from the minutes of the British Parliament from June 1946) confirming that the invitation was extended to both the government of Poland and to representatives of the Western Command Poles. You have not provided even a single source, let alone a source as reliable as the minutes of the British Parliament from June 1946, which states that only a single Polish unit was invited. Furthermore, your text contradicts the content of the official program of the parade, which clearly states that more than a single Polish unit was invited. Varsovian (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Self Published sources?

Jacurek: Could you please be so kind as to point out the sources which you consider to be self published?

If you are refering to Dr Ostrowski's work (which is actually published by the University of London), please check the links given to Hansard: everything said in The Times article quoted by Dr Ostrowski is also said in Hansard.

If you are refering to Mr Falkowski's article, please see my comments on this page: the article is written by Rudolf Falkowski, who flew with 635, 639 and 303 squadrons, and first appeared on www.polishsquadronsremembered.com which is created and maintained by Wilhelm Ratuszynski.

If you are refering to Mr Lucas' article, please note that the English text on his blog is a translation of the Polish language article which was published in Wprost.

If you are refering to Hansard, please read Hansard.

I would greatly appreciate it if you could please use this discussion page to discuss changes you wish to make to the article before you change the article.Varsovian (talk) 17:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Factual accuracy disputed

Jacurek: Could you please outline the facts which you consider to be inaccurate. I will be happy to provide you with direct quotes from the online records of what was said in the British Parliament that will prove the facts which I inserted into this article.

I fail to see how your current actions (i.e. flagging this article as having disputed accuracy and containing self published sources and calling for expert attention while you fail to engage in any discussion at all about the subject) help WP in any way.Varsovian (talk) 18:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Jacurek: You have inserted two [dubious – discuss] notes in the article. I will explain why they need to be removed:

“The parade is also notable for claims [dubious – discuss] that all Polish servicemen were excluded from taking part.” Source [1] states “Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government, for fear of offending Joseph Stalin. …. Yet, as the great long line of marchers proceeded down the Mall on that June morning in 1946, and as the crowds cheered and basked in the postwar world's rebirth of freedom, proud Poland remained in the shadows.” Source [2] states “Even though Poland made one of the largest contributions to the Allied war effort and there were thousands of Polish troops stationed in the UK at the time, the country was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946.” Those are clearly claims that Poles were excluded from the parade. Or do you have any other reason for inserting [dubious – discuss]?

“Although this is considered by some as one of the causes of the feeling of "Western Betrayal" in Poland, such claims are erroneous because Poles were invited[dubious – discuss] to take part in the parade.” Why is this dubious? Hansard reproduces discussions in which it is clearly stated by the British Foreign Secretary that Poles were invited. The memoirs of General Anders say that Poles were invited. The Times newspaper of the time says that Poles were invited. I can understand a modern day journalist from the Financial Times making a mistake when writing about history but it is impossible that General Anders was wrong and highly unlikely that the official printed transcripts of British parliamentary debates (i.e. Hansard) has been altered to insert statements which were never made. Then there is the official program of the victory celebrations which clearly lists Poland as a nation invited to participate. There are even British government records from the time showing how many staff cars the Polish attendees were allocated! What would you consider to be sufficient proof?!Varsovian (talk) 12:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Jacurek: Could you please outline the facts which you consider to be inaccurate. Please do this within the next 72 hours or I shall again remove the banner which you have posted at the top of this article. At present the only person who appears to dispute the factual accuracy of this article in its current form is you. I say "appears" because we don't know if you actually do dispute the factual accuracy of this article and we certainly don't know which facts you dispute: we only know that you keep posting banners on this article.Varsovian (talk) 14:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Varsovian, everything in this talk page already. Please read my comments and references, C. comments and references, Loosmark comments and references, Piotrus ciomments and references etc. There is no need to repeat and I will not repeat myself. You are against an opinion of 3 editors + 1 (myself). DO NOT REMOVE tags.--Jacurek (talk) 16:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

"such claims are erroneous"

I'm removing "such claims are erroneous" because that is not encyclopedic style. Loosmark (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

In that case, could you please use correct style to point out that such claims are erroneous? I'd do it myself but I'm limited to iPhone only access until Monday and that means I can only write simple messages: if I try to edit the article, I'll probably just mess it up! Varsovian (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The "claims", as you call them, present a valid position, are properly sourced and presented with only 1 sentence. The opposite view is now widely spread throughout the article thanks to your efforts to rewrite the article. And don't worry wikipedia will do just fine till Monday without your edits from "limited to iPhone only access". Loosmark (talk) 14:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

“A valid position”? “The opposite point of view”? You seem to misunderstand the situation here. There are no points of view here! We are talking about a very simple fact: either Poles were not invited to the parade or they were invited. There is no room here for valid positions, there can be only one truth. And the fact is that despite claims that Poles were not invited, Poles were invited. This fact is supported by all the available historic sources. The claims that Poles were excluded come from sources written the best part of six decades after the parade and are at best totally erroneous hearsay. I will rewrite the introduction to this section to make it clear that the claims are not accurate.

I would like to note that your comments here and on my talk page and your own talk page seem unnecessarily confrontational and impolite. I do not appreciate being called a liar and would be most grateful if you could possibly adopt a civil tone in all further discussion with me. Thank you in advance for your efforts to do so.Varsovian (talk) 14:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I have not called you a liar. Please show where i called you a liar or withdraw the false accusation. Loosmark (talk) 14:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

At User_talk:Varsovian#Reproaches you state "yes "Varsovian", you are a new user. right. just an advise next time you try the new user thing try to behave like one, you might look more convincing." Do you wish to claim that your comments imply that I am telling the truth when I say that I am a new user? Or do you instead use sarcasm in an attempt to imply that I am a liar, and an unconvincing liar at that.

I note that you have made no attempt to in any way discuss your assertion that the fact that Poles were invited to the parade (a fact confirmed by all the available historical sources) is simply a "Point of view". Perhaps you would like to stand next to a woman who is giving birth and shout loudly "From a valid point of view this woman has never been pregnant!" ? Being invited is in a certain way very much like being pregnant: one can't be 'a little bit invited' (especially not when all the available sources say that one was invited). Instead of discussing your assertion you simply revert the correctly sourced statements of fact and replace them with ungrammatical erroreous claims.

Despite your repeated veiled comments about my good faith, " I understand very well what mission you were on", "provocations orchestrated by the usual suspects" and the comment already quoted above, I shall make no comment at all about your good faith and shall simply ask you to explain from what point of view it is possible to state that Poles were excluded from the parade by the British government given that all the historical source data shows that Poles were clearly invited by the British government. Until you have done so, could you be so kind as to not revert the article. Thank you. Varsovian (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes I had reservation about you being a new users, even an administrator had them. But anyway despite writting a long rant you haven't showed where I have called a lair. Therefore I ask you again to either show where I've called you a liar or withdraw this incivil falsification. Loosmark (talk) 16:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

You had reservation about me being "a new users"?! Could you possibly refrain from stating that I am operating multiple accounts? Or when you say that I am "new users", do you mean that 'one user' has exactly the same meanins as "users"? As for your claims about me saying that you called me a liar, I was very carefully as to what I did and did not say. Could you perhaps quote the text in which I called you a liar? Or would you prefer to withdraw this incivil falsified claim? Judging by the way in which you have withdrawn none of the veiled comments about my good faith, I am sorry to say that I shall not hold my breath whilst waiting for you to do so.

I note that you have made no attempt to engage in any discussion as to the content of the article whatsoever. I again ask you to explain from what point of view it is possible to state that Poles were excluded from the parade by the British government given that all the historical source data shows that Poles were clearly invited by the British government. Kindly do not revert the article without first providing such explanation here. Thank you.Varsovian (talk) 16:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

yes, I can provide you the quote, you said: I do not appreciate being called a liar. So, again where I've called you a liar? I've already explained a couple of days ago why your behavior looked suspiscious. An administrator had similar doubts, will you acuse him of being a liar too? Loosmark (talk) 16:47, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Well done, you have provided a quote in which I have said that I do not like being called a liar. Now kindly provide a quote in which I say that you have called me a liar. Or do you really not see how 'I do not appreciate being called a liar' and 'You have called me a liar' are two different statements? While you are looking for those quotes, perhaps you could provide the quotes in which you explain why my behavious looks suspicious? So far you have only said " next time you try the new user thing try to behave like one, you might look more convincing".

Do you actually have anything at all to say about the article? I'm particularly interested to hear you explain from what point of view it is possible to state that Poles were excluded from the parade by the British government given that all the historical source data shows that Poles were clearly invited by the British government. Which is why I have asked you several times now to do so. I wonder why you have ignored each and every one of those requests. Varsovian (talk) 16:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh I see, so you did not mean that I've called you a liar. Right, so what for have brought that up again? Loosmark (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I haven't. You have. When you said "I have not called you a liar. Please show where i called you a liar or withdraw the false accusation." As for why you have brought this up, I wouldn't like to comment. Although I do note that you've been very willing to discuss this and have made very little effort to explain from what point of view it is possible to state that Poles were excluded from the parade by the British government given that all the historical source data shows that Poles were clearly invited by the British government. Varsovian (talk) 17:03, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

invitation

The "invitation" was given to the communist authorities in Poland which werent recognised by the the governament in exile and by the Polish veterans. That much is clear. Your statement that The claims that Poles were excluded come from sources written the best part of six decades after the parade and are at best totally erroneous hearsay. is original research and original research is not allowed on wikipedia. Varsovian please stop pushing your POV into the article. Loosmark (talk) 16:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

No it was not given to only the internationally recognised government of Poland (which is what I assume you mean by "the communist authorities in Poland"): an invitation was also given to representatives of the Western Command Poles. Read the sources given, in particular Hansard. Or the memoirs of Gen Anders if you only trust Polish sources.

You claim about original research is highly amusing! Perhaps you would like to read the sources which claim that Poles were excluded, then note the dates when those sources were written. I look forward hugely to your explaination as to how simple mathematics (i.e. working out how many years after the parade those sources were written) is 'original research! But then I also look forward to you explaining how the status of Poles being invited is in any way a 'point of view'.... Varsovian (talk) 16:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Obviously you have no idea what was going on, read Hansard your own source, McNeil said this: We have not invited the Navy and the Army, but we did invite some of the Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain, to march past in the R.A.F. contingent. Let me repeat again: We have not invited the Navy and the Army, but we did invite some of the Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain, to march past in the R.A.F. contingent. Loosmark (talk) 16:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Marvelllous. Thank you for quoting that section from the source for me. Now it has been shown that you know some Western Command Poles were invited, it will be impossible for you to claim that Western Command Poles were not invited. So we are agreed: some Poles were invited to the parade by the British government and they were not excluded from the parade. I'll edit the article accordingly.Varsovian (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Huh? Nobody disputes that the Poles who flied in the Battle of Britain were invited to the parade, it's a well known fact. However no other airmen were invited and at the same time the Army who fought alongside Britain from 1939, and who suffered great losses and spit blood on every possible battlefield accross Europe was not invited, the Navy who was involved in a number of major operation from the hunt of the Nazi battleship Bismarck, to the protection of artic conwoys from Nazi uboats likewise. McNeil states that clearly. Loosmark (talk) 17:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Please read the sources. Kwan Yuk Pan says in the Financial Times (source 2) " Even though Poland made one of the largest contributions to the Allied war effort and there were thousands of Polish troops stationed in the UK at the time, the country was excluded from the original London celebration in 1946. Stalin, who had established communist rule in eastern Europe, indicated that he did not wish Poland to be represented and the British authorities agreed for fear of offending their ally." and Olson & Cloud say (in source 1) “Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government, for fear of offending Joseph Stalin." Those are the 'claim' I have been referring to (they are quoted above on this page). As to the Polish army and navy being excluded: no units from the armies or navies of any non-Commonwealth/Empire nation were invited to the parade. Poland is a non-Commonwealth/Empire nation. No units from either of the two largest allied armies (i.e. the Red Army and the US Army) were invited. Varsovian (talk) 17:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Red Army had their own parade in Moscow and apart from that, unlike Poland, they fought on the eastern front and not together with the British. If you think that Poland being a non-Commonwealth nation is the reason for not being invited then provide the source which says "Poland was not invited because it was not a Commonwealth nation". Until, then it's nothing more than your speculation. Loosmark (talk) 17:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

You mean the Moscow parade which Polish forces attended? Have a look at the WP page and you'll see Polish forces marching in it.

Of course it'll be impossible for me give a source which says "Poland was not invited because it was not a Commonwealth nation": that is because POLAND WAS INVITED!!! Even you agree to that fact (see above). Why do you keep saying that Poland was not invited? Poland actually received a double invitation: one for the government and one for Western Command Poles.

I have already provided a link which shows that units of Poland's army and navy were not invited because Poland was not a Commonwealth/Empire nation: the official programme of the victory celebrations. Read it and you will see that first came representatives of allied forces (except Britain and Commonwealth/Empire nations) each parading their flag (Poland is shown on the list here). Then came army, navy, and airforce and units of British Empire Dominions. Then came army, navy and airforce units and civilian services of the British Colonial Empire. Then came the British navy and maritime forces. Then came the British civilian services. Then the British Army. Then more British civilian services. Then representatives of selected allied airforces (Poland is shown on the list here). Then came the Royal Airforce. Can you see a slots there for any units of any army or navy other than those of Commonwealth/Empire nations? Can you see where the US Army marched? Where the French Navy marched? Only units from armies and navies of Commonwealth/Empire nations were invited. Was Poland a Commonwealth/Empire nation? No? Then perhaps that might just possibly explain why no units of her army or navy were invited, don't you think?Varsovian (talk) 18:35, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Can you see where the US Army marched? yeah as a matter of fact I can http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6SWwL_KAb4 at 0:42 Loosmark (talk) 19:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

You must mean the bit at 0.43 to 0.47? The bit where the narrator is saying "Yanks too join in the big celebration proudly parading old glory". Thank you so much for finding a film which so nicely confirms my statement above that "first came representatives of allied forces (except Britain and Commonwealth/Empire nations) each parading their flag". Very nice of you to make the effort. It is lucky that the article currently says "It should be noted that, with the exception of the honour guard for each nation’s flag and the bands of certain nations, no units of any army or navy from any non-Commonwealth/Empire nation were invited to take part.", otherwise we'd have to rewrite it to make it clear that each nation which paraded its flag sent an honour guard for such flag.

Although the film is rather grainy, I'm pretty sure that the honour guard with the flag is two rows of US Army, two of US Navy and two of US Marines. Interesting that the three branches of the US services which were not invited to send representatives to the parade made up the US flag's honour guard. I wonder if other nations whose airforces were invited also made the same decision as to their honour guards. Could you perhaps review further footage and have a look for that? Then we can add the extra information to the article.Varsovian (talk) 09:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the quality of the movie is poor, some of those definitely look like the US Navy to me but I don't know, maybe some expert could clarify that for us. But anyway what you seem to not understand is that there is a fundamental difference between the US Army and the Polish Army in that the first simply cooperated with the British Army on the strategic-tactical level while the Polish Army was basically a part of the British Army, for all practical purposes they were just the same as for example the Scottish or the Canadian Army. So first accepting the Polish Army as the integral part of the British Army and then claiming they weren't invited because they were not part of the Commonwealth is just ludicrous and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the reason for not inviting them. Loosmark (talk) 15:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Interesting point, but one that is somewhat let down by the small fact that Scotland didn't have an army at all during WWII (and the tiny point that even if it did, with Scotland being part of Britain, of course that army would be part of the British army) and the fact that the Canadian Army was not an integral part of the British Army during WWII. The First Canadian Army actually included one of the best known Polish units (the 1st Polish Armoured Division). Also included in the Canadian First Army was the US 104th Infantry Division: so if you want to claim that Polish troops were an integral part of the British army, you'll need to agree that American troops were also an integral part of the British army (which would somewhat put a hole in your point about the US Army simply cooperating with the British Army on the strategic-tactical level). If you want to claim that one Division does not a rule make, check out the US II Corps (part of the British First Army), the US Ninth Army and First Army (both part of the British 21st Army group), and the US 101st and 82nd Airborne Divisions (both part of the British 21st Army group). You could claim that Polish army units were not invited because the British wanted to kiss Stalin's arse, but if that is the case, why did the Brits invite Western Command Polish airmen? In fact, why did they invite Poles at all if they were so worried about what Stalin thought?Varsovian (talk) 19:34, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

There was clearly a difference between the Polish and the US Army but i don't care to go into details now because it is obvious. Simply look at the facts: unlike the Americans the Poles fought together with the British in every possible battlefield, starting from Narvik, France 1940 trough Tobruk and so on and so forth. And what exactly does this "Western Command" term you keep repeating mean? Anyway they invited only the airmen who flew in the 1940 Battle of Britain, probably because of their importance and also because they were so much respected by everybody that not inviting would probably mean a complete loss of face. But as McNeil put it: "we invited some Poles". Clearly at least the representatives of the Polish Army and the Polish Navy should have been invited similarly to the US Army, call it "to guard the flag" or however you want to. This view is properly sourced and belongs into the article. Loosmark (talk) 02:19, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

There's a difference but you don't want to go into it? Are you sure it isn't 'I don't know enough to go into it'? From your comments about the integration of the armies, I'd say that might just be the case.

"unlike the Americans the Poles fought together with the British in every possible battlefield" could you please go into detail about the Polish contribution to the war against Japan? I can go into considerable detail about the American contribution.

"Clearly at least the representatives of the Polish Army and the Polish Navy should have been invited similarly to the US Army, call it "to guard the flag" or however you want to." I completely agree. But they were invited! An invitation to parade the flag was sent to the internationally recognised Polish government (which you should be careful about calling 'communist', unless you do wish to slur the memory of Stanisław Mikołajczyk). They accepted the invitation and then didn't turn up. Surely you don't mean that the British government should have invited two set of Poles to parade two identical Polish flags?!

" This view is properly sourced and belongs into the article." Which view? The view that Poles should have been invited to parade their flag with an honour guard? If so, it's there: "The Official Programme of the Victory Celebrations on 8 June 1946 in London, England lists Poland as a nation scheduled to take part by parading its flag with an honour guard". Varsovian (talk) 11:05, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Look Varsovian I really don't wish to discuss this with you anymore, you seem to be completely obsessed with proving that Poland was invited. Since you are a new user on wikipedia, or rather as you corrected yourself later a "new user who edited from IP adress before", let me explain you how wikipedia works: If there is properly sources material in the article you can't just delete it, if you disagree with that you have two options: either prove that the source is not reliable or/and introduce a source which says that the other source is wrong. You judging sources based on some Official Programme is original research and a definite no no on wikipedia. Loosmark (talk) 11:33, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

PS the "Official Programme" is hardly a prove of any invitations since we don't know under what circumstances and by whom it was made. Loosmark (talk) 11:33, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I really do fail to see how reading the Official Programme of the Victory Celebrations is 'original research', do explain. Alternatively, do not explain: let's say (just for the sake of making things easier here) that we completely ignore the Official Programme of the Victory Celebrations (which doesn't actually contain a word about precisely to whom any invitations were sent), there is still the small matter of Hansard. That does clearly and repeatedly state to whom any invitations were sent. Or does reading Hansard also count as 'original research'?

You say that I need to "prove that the source is not reliable". Seeing as the sources which claim Polish Armed Forces in the West were excluded are from nearly 60 years after the parade and the sources which say that Western Command Poles were invited are from a few days before the parade, wouldn't you say that the sources have been proved to be not reliable? And to answer my own question, yes you would say that those sources have been proved to be not reliable. You yourself agree that some Western Command Poles were invited while the incorrect sources say the opposite!

I have no idea why you say that I am "completely obsessed with proving that Poland was invited": you have already agreed above that Poland was invited!!!Varsovian (talk) 11:59, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

"You haved agree above that Poland was invited!!!" huh!? i'm starting to think you are a troll. Please read again what i wrote, i "agreed" that some airmen who flied in the 1940 Battle of Britain were invited and nothing more than that. No other airmen were invited, no representative of the Polish Army was invited and no representative of the Polish Navy was invited, not even to "guard the flag" as you call it. Those were the men who fought shoulder to shoulder with the British from 1936 to 1945, 6 years, the only ally who did so. Those people were most certainly not represented by the puppet commie government, so the British knew that by sending the invitation only to the communist authorities they were de-facto excluding them from the parade. Loosmark (talk) 13:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Troll? That is extremely civil language, isn't it? Do you or do you not agree that some Western Command Poles were invited? Yes you do: you say above "i "agreed" that some airmen who flied in the 1940 Battle of Britain were invited". So you directly contradict 'sources' (written some six decades after the parade) which support a viewpoint which you say "is properly sourced and belongs into the article." You can talk as much as you want about who fought with who and for how long over what but the very simple fact remains that Poles, both Western and Eastern Command Poles, were invited to the parade on exactly the same basis as all other non-Commonwealth/Empire nations. I note that you call Stanisław Mikołajczyk (Deputy Polish Prime Minister, Minister of Agriculture and Agricultural Reform in 1946) a "commie". Do you have any proof of that claim?Varsovian (talk) 17:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

[3]--Jacurek (talk) 14:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I note that you make no attempt to in anyway discuss the topic of the article and instead both assume (and publicly state) that I am editing in bad faith and adopt uncivil language towards me. Is there any reason why I should not file a Request for Comment on user conduct with regard to your behaviour?Varsovian (talk) 15:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Article in not about London Victory Parade of 1946

Article in not about London Victory Parade of 1946 anymore. Section about the lack of the Polish participation overshadows the information about the parade itself. Needs major clean up, perhaps a separate article about the fact that Polish Armed Forces were not invited should be created..--Jacurek (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. London Victory Parade of 1946 still directs to the article.Varsovian (talk) 16:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean that in your opinion there is too much information about the lack of Polish participation and not enough about the parade? If so: firstly I disagree, the parade is now mainly noted for claims about the lack of Polish participation and this article provides valuable information about such; secondly, I'm happy to add more information about the parade itself if you would like. Shall I add such?Varsovian (talk) 17:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

The article needs a major expansion, it is currently about the exclusion of Poles from the parade - a notable subsection, but it shouldn't dominate the article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll write a new section about the parade itself (route, marching order, participants, time and date). I should have time to do that later this week.Varsovian (talk) 12:47, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Removal of banners posted by Jacurek

Jacurek: Could you please be so kind as to point out the sources which you consider to be self published. Could you please outline the facts which you consider to be inaccurate. I will be happy to provide you with direct quotes from the online records of what was said in the British Parliament that will prove the facts which I inserted into this article. Could you please also explain why you feel that this article is in need of attention from an expert on the subject.

Please note that I first requested that you provide the above information 12 days ago (despite having. If you do not respond within the next three days, I will remove the banners myself. I see no reason to wait more than two weeks for somebody to engage in discussion. I will post a courtesy notice on your talk page to ensure that you are aware of this request.Varsovian (talk) 19:02, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I will be happy to provide you with direct quotes from the online records of what was said in the British Parliament that will prove the facts which I inserted into this article. This just proves you still don't understand how wikipedia works. Articles here have to be based on secondary sources not your interpretation of the primary sources. What you have to do is find a book with those records where some expert concludes that the records say this and that which then proves that and that. Loosmark (talk) 19:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

A secondary source? Hansard may well be a secondary source. According to Wikipedia:No original research "Secondary sources are at least one step removed from an event. They rely for their facts and opinions on primary sources". Hansard is not a record of everything which is said in the British Parliament. However, let's say (purely for the sake of discussion) that Hansard is a primary source, Wikipedia:No original research says "Our policy: Primary sources that have been reliably published (for example, by a university press or mainstream newspaper) may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." Could you please be so kind as to point out the 'interpretation' which is being performed by looking at the words of the British Foreign Secretary saying " It is not true that we have not invited any members of those fighting Poles to take part in the Parade. Let me be quite honest. We have not invited the Navy and the Army, but we did invite some of the Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain, to march past in the R.A.F. contingent. ... We have to invite someone on behalf of the Warsaw Government, and I regret to say that the Warsaw Government has not yet provided the forces which they promised to take part in the parade." and concluding that the British government sent an invitation to the Polish government in Warsaw and another invitation to Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain? Do you really need an expert to tell you that the British Foreign Secretary saying "we did invite some of the Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain .... We have to invite someone on behalf of the Warsaw Government" means the British government invited those two groups?!

Although all of this is of course utterly moot anyway. You say "What you have to do is find a book with those records where some expert concludes that the records say this and that which then proves that and that." I would refer you to Dr Mark Ostrowski's “To Return To Poland Or Not To Return - The Dilemma Facing The Polish Armed Forces At The End Of The Second World War” and to Władysław Anders's “An Army in Exile”: two books which say very precisely that the British government sent an invitation to the Polish government in Warsaw and another invitation to Poles who flew in the Battle of Britain.Varsovian (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

From Chumchum7's talk page: Your opinion appreciated on London Victory Parade of 1946

In my personal opinion there is a quite serious attempt of falsification of facts by user Varsiovian on this article[[4]] who clams that Poles were invited to the parade etc. I suspect Varsovian to be a sock of an established editor who is trying to provoke me into the edit wars but this is not important. I would appreciate your opinion on the facts of the Polish participation in the parade. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 08:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Please tell me what the precise disagreement is about. In my opinion most of these disputes can be solved quite easily by adding caveats such as "According to some sources... But according to other sources..." The book by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud is my best source on this. My recollection of their account of the Parade is that the RAF Poles were invited but the invitation to land forces was sent to the 'Lublin Poles' rather than the 'London Poles'. The Lublin Poles ignored the invitation and the Brits told the London Poles to go home. The 228,000 Polish land forces in the UK were confined to barracks and the RAF Poles boycotted the event in solidarity. If I remember correctly, I think a handful of Polish RAF fliers (I think it was 3 of them) may have taken the Polish flag to the Parade, but this small group was definitely meant as a protest. But I would need to double check all this.Chumchum7 (talk) 09:40, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Jacurek: I would greatly appreciate it if you could stop calling me a sockpuppet. Either file a formal complaint about me or stop throwing the accusation around. I would also greatly appreciate it if you could refrain from accusing me of editing in bad faith. If you can not refrain from accusing me of being a sockpuppet and from accusing me of bad faith editing, I shall be left with no other choice than to file a Request for Comment on your behaviour. This is your final warning.

I do not ‘claim’ that Poles were invited to the parade: I provide links to five sources from the time which confirm that Poles were invited to the parade and four modern sources (two of which provide their sources) which all very clearly state that invitations were issued to both the ‘London Poles’ and to the government of Poland. The ‘evidence’ you offer is merely two modern sources, neither of which provide their sources.

Chumchum7: Olson and Cloud actually say “Yet, despite its accomplishments in the war, none Of 303's Pilots took part in the fly-past. None marched in the parade. For they were all Polish -- and Poles who had fought under British command were deliberately and specifically barred from the celebration by the British government, for fear of offending Joseph Stalin.” That clearly contradicts your memories as outlined above, as well as Hansard for the time, The Times newspaper, the Official Programme of the Victory Celebrations and the memoirs of General Anders. I would very much think that your memories (and Hansard and The Times and General Anders) have got it right and Olson and Cloud have it wrong.

I do not feel that it would be appropriate to say “According to some sources … but according to others …” All of the sources of the time say Poles were invited, the eyewitness reports say that they were, the expert sources from now say that they were. There are certainly claims that Poles were not invited but those are entirely refuted by far more reliable sources. The idea that equal weight should be given to sixty-year-old second and third-hand sources as is to official sources from the same week as the parade and eyewitness reports is abhorrent. Varsovian (talk) 12:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

In brief, what was the main point of disagreement between Jacurek and Varsovian about this article anyway? I don't have time to read through their debate!Chumchum7 (talk) 13:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Jacurek claims that only one unit of Poles was invited to the parade [5] and previously claimed that all Polish servicemen were excluded [6]. I quote five sources from the time and four modern sources which confirm that both 'London Poles' and 'Lublin Poles' were invited to the parade (BTW: according to Hansard and other sources from the time, the 'Lublin Poles' accepted the invitation but then didn't send any representatives)Varsovian (talk) 13:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

In that case, if your 9 sources have a unanimous view of the event, I propose the article asserts what those 9 sources say. But Oslon and Cloud's alternative reading of the event should also be noted in the article. That is a fair, even-handed solution and offers readers a wealth of information from which they draw their own conclusions. Even sheer weight of sourcing doesn't always establish the truth: Lets not forget there are probably more sources saying the Polish cavalry charged Panzers than sources saying the Polish cavalry never did this as they were in fact dragoons or highly mobile infantry - who dismounted to fight as an infantry unit armed with highly effective anti-tank weapons.Chumchum7 (talk) 13:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The article currently says "Although the parade is also notable for claims that all Polish servicemen were excluded from taking part by the British government [1] [2], and some consider this as one of the causes of the feeling of "Western Betrayal" in Poland, Poles were actually invited but chose not to attend." Would you say that such wording is suitable? There are indeed more sources which say Polish cavalry charged tanks but that myth has also been debunked. Oslon and Cloud provide no sources for their alternative reading of the event and it flies in the face of more serious historical works and both official and unoffical sources of the time. Varsovian (talk) 14:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, you say the myth has been debunked, but try asking a total stranger what he knows about Polish cavalry, and tell me what answer you get. Now, that sentence you quoted me stinks of POV and possibly anti-Polish sentiment. The parade is notable for the absence of Polish troops, it is not notable "for claims that all Polish servicemen were excluded from taking part by the British government". If the claims are more important than the absence, those sources better be all about claims rather than absence. Moreover, the idea that Poles chose not to attend needs to be explained, if it is true in the first place. Why did the Poles choose not to attend? Why did 30 Polish officers commit suicide around that time? Chumchum7 (talk) 15:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The fact that Poles chose not to attend and why is indeed covered by the article: "But as The Times noted in June 1946 “Unfortunately, it seems that none of the Polish servicemen who fought in the West under British command will take part. Polish airmen who took part in the Battle of Britain were invited, but they do not wish to march unless Polish soldiers and sailors of the Western Command can march with them." " The fact is also mentioned in six of the sources provided (three from the time and three modern). How is it is anti-Polish sentiment to state the fact that Poles were invited but chose not to attend? I do not have any knowledge of 30 Polish officers committing suicide in May/June 1946, do you have any sources you can link to for me? I think that you may be getting confused with the Yalta Conference.Varsovian (talk) 15:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Olson and Cloud mention the 30 suicides - but you dispute their authority, which is your right. I'd say the British government and press were all desperately trying to whitewash the fact that they had not achieved their statutory war aim of creating a free and independent Poland after the war. Think of the scandal, that after 6 years of going to war in defence of Poland, Poland wasn't free. Brits at the time wanted Poles to shut up and go home. The sentence above implies the Poles were just being difficult. In fact they were protesting against the Stalinist takeover of their country that the Brits didn't seem to want to know about. Even if at the Parade the Polish absence was a boycott by Poles, rather than a snub by the British, the UK government would have been deeply embarrassed by what was happening to Poland. Of course they didn't want it to be known about. Suppressing of Polish grievances became part of the war effort, and therefore propaganda in official records and newspapers. All sources can be treated with healthy scepticism.Chumchum7 (talk) 16:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Please read what I said. Olson & Cloud mention 30 suicides in relation to the Yalta conference, which I believe predated the victory parade by about a year and a half. Do you mean that these Poles killed themselves because of a parade which hadn’t then been announced for a victory which hadn’t yet been won? You do seem to be looking at the situation of 1946 with the benefit of hindsight: Poland of 1946 was not certain to be unfree. Stanisław Mikołajczyk resigned as Prime Minister of the government in exile to return to Poland and become the other Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Agriculture in Poland!

I do wonder why you say in connection with the victory parade “Suppressing of Polish grievances became part of the war effort”. The parade was in June 1946. The war effort finished at the end of the war: September 1945. Why did the war effort continue for nearly a year after the war?

I also wonder why you say that “Brits at the time wanted Poles to shut up and go home”. The Polish Resettlement Act 1947 and the Polish Resettlement Corps, plus the hundreds of camps for Poles, would appear to suggest otherwise. As would the words of Churchill “'His Majesty's Government will never forget the debt they owe to the Polish troops... I earnestly hope it will be possible for them to have citizenship and freedom of the British empire, if they so desire.”

But let’s say for the sake of argument that you are right: let’s say that British official records and newspapers of the time are “propaganda” and “the British government and press were all desperately trying to whitewash” something. If that is the case, why in his memoirs does General Anders say that Free Poles and representatives of the internationally recognised govt of Poland were invited to the parade? Was he part of the establishment lie? What about Rudolf Falkowski? When he says “Though by then, every Englishman was a S.O.B. in our eyes” is he repeating propaganda designed to suppress Polish grievances?Varsovian (talk) 19:31, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Lets agree to have differing opinions on this. I don't have the time to spend any more time debating. I have offered a solution, which is to include all accounts of the event, properly cited. For your information, my opinion, which I don't want to go into a debate about, is this: My use of the phrase 'war effort' includes the effort in the latter 1940s to ensure war did not break out again and to be on the ready for further hostility. This included enforced conscription for years after the war, continued rationing, contingency plans such as Operation Unthinkable as well as propaganda in newspapers, radio, film and in public announcements. Tories tended to be more pro-Polish and anti-Stalin. The Labour government of Clement Attlee hero-worshipped Stalin, who had a psychotic grudge against Poles. There was a concerted effort by some politicians and labour unions to encourage Poles to go home and to tell them to shut up that Britain hadn't achieved its statutory war aim. The 30 suicides after Yalta was a protest, the boycotting of the parade was a protest. Hence the connection between the two. Mikołajczyk was notoriously naive. Everybody knew what happened at the Warsaw Uprising and about other Soviet tactics. I wrote most of the the Polish Resettlement Act 1947 wiki and I found the quote “'His Majesty's Government will never forget the debt they owe to the Polish troops... I earnestly hope it will be possible for them to have citizenship and freedom of the British empire, if they so desire.” The Act was a solution to the fact that Poles werent going home. Churchill's quote was tantamount to a guilty apology and an admission that the Free Poles would not have a home to go back to. Not everyone understood the implications of his quote. It may be true that the Free Poles were invited, and if so it is likely they boycotted the event because their wives an children back in Lwow and Wilno were being raped and murdered by the NKVD. That's it. See World War II Behind Closed Doors: Stalin, the Nazis and the West. Before you go casting stones accusing me of looking at it with hindsight, think about your own prejudices. Fold in all the sources offering as many perspectives as possible. And both you and Jacurek please leave me alone and try to resolve your conflict amicably.Chumchum7 (talk) 06:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I do actually agree with almost everything (everything except the choice of one verb) which you have written: British politicians and trade unionists really do have a lot to hang their heads about with regard to the years immediately after the war (in fact from August 1944 onwards). I have been trying to resolve this with Jacurek but he refuses to reply to any of my attempts to engage in discussion....Varsovian (talk) 09:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

You state "The parade is notable for the fact that almost all 228,000 Polish servicemen who had served under British High Command in World War Two were excluded.[1][2] Instead, Poles from the Soviet-installed Stalinist regime of Communist Poland were invited, but chose not to attend." Firstly, you have already agreed above that Western Command Poles were invited, so the word "instead" is incorrect and misleading: both sets of Poles were invited. Secondly, the two sources you give both say that "all" Poles were excluded, please provide sources which support your position that "almost all Poles" were "exluded". Thirdly, do you have any proof that Mikołajczyk was a Stalinist? Fourthly, why is the 'exclusion' of Poles any more notable than the exclusion of the thousands of other non-commonwealth/empire forces? From a NPOV, why should Poles be more noteworthy than any other nation which was excluded?Varsovian (talk) 17:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring by user Varsovian

User Varsovian is edit warring on this article against opinions of at least 4 editors. Please refer to the edit history and this massive talk page.--Jacurek (talk) 23:41, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

This talk page got completely ruined by Varsovian who keeps replying to every post with long rants instead of answering concise and to the point. Frankly I have lost all interest to discuss anything here because the discussion is in a state of complete mess. Loosmark (talk) 23:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

The sources you give do not say what you claim they do. They both say "All Poles", not "Almost all Poles". Find sources that support you position and are accurate. Concise enough?Varsovian (talk) 00:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)