Talk:Mingo

Merge with Honniasont

These two articles seem to discuss the same Native American tribe. Unless evidence is provided to the contrary, the two articles should be merged. Neelix (talk) 20:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The proto-historic Mingoe, Black Mincuuas (Dutch, early half 17th century) were these neighbors and trade partners, a kendred. The ancester of the Ohio Mingo of the 18th century clans whom some clans had migrated to the Potomac Valley were called Messowomeake by the Virginians as they were closer to the Baltmore trade on Kent Island estblished in the 1630s. The ancient Mingo lived on the northern half of West Virginia, western Ohio and towards the Forks of Ohio (Pittsburgh area) region. These were called Black Mincuas, a distinct proto-historic Nation according to Hermman. The area of the Honiasant was also the area of the Shattera (ancient Tutelo), Monecaga, a localized descent name from the tellings of the local Kanawhan region histories(Monetons), who had friendly trade with the Black Mincquas-- not to get into the geneology of the privy. The Proto-historic era was a great acculturation period of river trade to the east, Chesapeake Bay, by the Ohio Valley tribes. The Messawomeake were the middle men in this cross Allegheny trade system of the Monongahela Valley and Potomac Valley routes east by the earliest written accounts of them showing up at first to France of Kirke's trade post and later in the 1630s at Kent Island. The Honiasant, mixed kendred to Black Mincquas and Shattera and Monecaga (Monecaga local terminology of western kendred to Monacan else Monetons) traded through the middle men to Abraham Woods fort through the Occanechee middle men, especially of the early Cherokee trade. So while the merging of the two articles would not be out of line, there were clannish differences between Mingo of the historic and the ancient Mingoe for the mixing of the Messawomeake with the White Mincquas on the Potomac and Conestoga Manor and other Iroquois like the Canawest (descent mix from earlier ancient Canaragay trade Canagadi Indians, read Nunez). Those clans who returned to the eastern Ohio and Panhandle of West Virginia region were of a mix and of an evolved society no longer a Black Minquas Nation but splinter clans and a bit different than their ancester Nation of the proto-historic of the upper Ohio Valley. The Honiasant were of the Middle Ohio Valley, yet with trade relations and some kendredship as mentioned. An acculturation period followed by assimilation resulting a slightly different people is precarious if not complcated to explain. Some Monacans joined the Iroquois (5 Nations) and others did not, see Monetons also West Virginia PrehistoryConaughy (talk) 09:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I would strongly disagree. There are actually two distinct groups being discussed, though they are often confused. Euro-Americans during the 18th century used the term "Mingo" not usually as a designator of a specific, organized tribe, but to identify individuals or small bands of Native Americans of multiple Iroquois tribal affiliations, who lived outside of their N.Y. "Longhouse", or homeland, and who were not under the immediate control of the 6 Nations Confederacy, usually those specifically living in the Ohio Country. Thus Logan, who is sometimes called a Mingo, was actually a Cayuga, and with his brothers, signed treaties in Pennsylvania as such. It was the Colonial powers who usually designated these Natives as "Mingo", and not the Natives themselves. Even the term "Mingo" is a borrowed word, and not Iroquoian in origin. Nearly every well known Native identified in 18th documents as a "Mingo" can be shown to have been a member by birth of one of the Six Nations. These people are distinct from, (though on occasion may have intermarried with), the historical groups who were known as the Black or White Mingoe of the earlier period. There are those who claim to be the descendants of these earlier groups, but they are not a state or federally recognized tribal group. The Seneca/Cayuga Nation in O.K. are some of the direct descendants of the "Mingo" usually referred to in 18th century Colonial documents, most others are scattered among the remaining Hodenosaunee people. I think it serves Wiki best to leave a distinction between the two groups in place and not further the confusion between them by blending them into one. TruthBastion (talk) 19:33, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

"In the 17th century, the "Massawomeck" "neighbors’ names for the ancient Mingoe ("Mingoe", Gist & Croghan et al. 1750s) were various – "Pocoughtraonack" in southern Chesapeake, "Massawomeck" in northern Chesapeake and Potomac below the falls", quoting Rountree, 2006.The "Black Minqua" (Massawomeck) element of Eire, Clark (2006) demonstrated that "by 1608, there were hostilities with Piscataways, Anacostians, people down the Potomac, Patuxents, Tockwoghs and Susquehannocks; by 1632, peace with Anacostians and use of them ("Massawomeck") as middlemen." Massawomeck men wore shaven head with a lock along the nape of neck. [1] The Algonquian Lanape or Delaware called the Minqua (Dutch), Mingwe in the 17th Century. The Baltimores in the 1630s called the Mingwe, "Messawomecke". [2] Clobery & Company and the Baltimores established a trading post at Kent Island (1631) on the upper Chesapeake Bay to which the upper Ohio Valley Mingwe travelled down the Potomac River to trade. Virginian Native Americans at the time called those beyond the Allegheny Mountains the phrase, "Messawomecke", "those beyond the mountains"."

The above information likewise seems to be discussing a particular group or groups of people who are not the people described in later 18th century Colonial documents as Mingo. Perhaps this information should be moved as well to the Honniasont entry so as not to confuse an earlier historic tribe sometimes called Mingo or Black Mingoes or Minqua, with the use of the generic term "Mingo"during the 18th century in the Ohio Country? TruthBastion (talk) 06:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Per this and the discussion at Logan, I added an accuracy tag. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Language

I would suggest that the language section here be removed, possibly to the "Honniasont" page, as it appears to be discussing the language of that group, and not the people generally known during the 18th century as "Mingo". As stated above, and in the "History" section of the Mingo Wiki page, the historic, Ohio Country Mingo, were of diverse Iroquois cultural background. They had their own distinct languages, not a unified tongue. Mingo who were Seneca, likely spoke Seneca. Mingo who were Cayuga, Cayuga, etc... The Mingo Language entry paints a completely different, and innacurate, picture if it is discussing Mingo in general, and not the specific alleged descendants of one group of people descended from the earlier "Black Mingo". If anyone has proof that Logan, The White Mingo, or any other historic figure identified as a "Mingo" spoke an actual "Mingo" language, as opposed to their own known mother tongues, I would love to see it. Once removed, a more historically accurate entry can be made to replace it. TruthBastion (talk) 05:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I removed the language section I contributed as well as our university findings of late. This local study can be recopied to another article if found to be usefull. TruthBastion's comment about "ancient" Honniasont being different to late colonial "Mingo" is correct about some of the ancestors. This period saw a great amount of acculturation and assimilation in our valley do to varying reasons. Conaughy (talk) 00:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Fixed?

I believe most of the problems with "Mingo" have been fixed. The article still needs some clean up work. Should the disputed warning be removed? TruthBastion (talk) 01:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)