Talk:New York City English

Silent H?

I have noticed a consident variant that is not mentioned, being a native new yorker, i usually pronounce words like hue, or houston or human, with silent h's. people around the country have always pointed this out, and it is something that i know a great deal of people from long island and new york do, is this worth mentioning?

As a native New Yorker, I've noticed that there really isn't one New York accent, but several. The Italian version gets lots of play in Hollywood mob movies, while John Leguizamo has the Spanish version and Lenny Bruce and Woody Allen share a Jewish accent which sounds somewhat anachronistic to my ears (although I grew up on Staten Island, which hasn't much of a Jewish community; maybe I'm just not used to it). The accent isn't a matter of place so much as ethnicity and class: richer, "whitebread" people tend to have weaker accents, whether they're from downtown Brooklyn or nothern New Jersey.

Not necessarily true ; I've known affluent Brooklyn Heights natives who speak a very strong form of Brooklynese straight from mob movies. Also, I have known African Americans who have "white" New York/New Jersey accents, due to growing up in mostly white neighborhoods.

• I'm also a native New Yorker, and I've actually never heard a native not pronounce "H". For example, how do you pronounce Houston St.? Because every native ive ever heard says (phonetically) "house-ton"--70.18.32.172 16:41, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

class and ethnicity

The key term is "tend to." There are always exceptions, but the thing is that we tend to place people by class more than by ethnicity. In fact, in sociolinguistic research, the patterns of the higher classes correspond to the more formal registers of all classes. Labov has a book called Sociolinguistic Patterns that discusses these tendencies, and the exceptions, in great detail.

I'm discussing this here because I'm not a linguist, and have no idea how to add this observation to the article in a useful way, beyond mere trivia. ~ FriedMilk 03:20, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

I think the article already covers your point where it states, "Generally, wealthier New Yorkers who come from educational backgrounds that are higher than average tend to speak without any trace of the accent." This could probably be repharsed better, though. Nelson Ricardo 03:30, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Not really. The article might have a short sentence on class differences, but it has nothing on ethnicity and how the accent varies from one ethnic group to another. ~ FriedMilk 05:11, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

No dialect is homogeneous. Even individuals speak differently depending on different contexts. However, as I will be adding to the main article lately, what people refer to as an NY accent or dialect is really a European American (White) speech pattern, that varies somewhat depending on ethnicity (e.g. Jewish vs. Italian), but more by class. Bill Labov, who did the most important work on this dialect in the 1960s, noted that Jews tended to have more radically NY style pronunciations of the vowel in "cab," while Italians had more radical ones in "taught" (or vice versa can't remember for sure). However, there are a set of properties which are frequent, and moreover the same ones that diminish by moving up the social class scale also diminish as speakers are in more formal contexts rather than less formal ones.

I don't mean to say that no Latinos, Asians, or African Americans speak the more or less pure versions. Many, particularly middle class ones, do. Also, most others are to some extent influenced by the White pattern. However, the pattern is centered on Whites and its use is seen to some extent by minorities as "talking White.""

I'll work on the addition, including characteristic sounds in the next week or so.

educated new yorkers speak with the accent. if you look at sean hanity, and bill oreily, they both speak with new york accents. if you want an extreme example of wealth, you can look at donald trump.

New section on Jersey Shore

Some of the claims in the new section seem questionable to me—especially the bit about the influence of Canadian English, which is just not how dialect development usually works. (That is, tourists don't usually affect the development of the accent in the place they visit.) Can anyone find verification of these claims? If not, I'm inclined to delete at least that bit.

Also, should that really be in this article? Or should there be a separate article for the accents of parts of New Jersey more distant from New York? AJD 19:38, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm from central new jersey on the shore and people's accents around here really aren't too distinct - more similar to people from other parts of the country than to people from some parts of north jersey or new york. I mean, a lot of people do have those accents but that's because they weren't born in this part of the state.

There's something else I've noticed in my own speech and in some others is to pronounce certain words differently at different times almost arbitrarily - maybe I'm just strange, but is this a documented thing? I guess because I'm sort of in a regional grey area as far as accents go, but I pronounce "orange" in both ways for instance (see article). --Tothebarricades.tk 17:32, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

changes to come

I haven't contibuted to Wiki yet, but I do want to add a considerable section to this page. I am a sociolinguist working on a related dialect (NY Latino English) and so I think doing so is appropriate. I just made one change, shifting the main term from accent to dialect, in keeping with normal sociolinguistic practice and making room for non-phonological features

Essentially, changes include:

• increasing the new section on characteristic features. As is, the section is largely correct, but could use expansion. I will add major phonological features not included and there should be a few morphosyntactic and lexical ones.
• making clear that the dialect is centered on the White or European American community. It's not the only NY Dialect.
• a very short section on history
• another very short section on its place in variationist research

The guidelines suggested that I place major changes here, and so I am doing that. I'll put them up in a week. If anyone wants to contact me and see a draft, they are welcome to at mnewman@qc.edu

My only dissatisfaction with the page is the inclusion of New Jersey outside the NY Dialect region. The dialects are not particularly closely related, and Jersey deserves its own page. I am not sure how to effect that change.

As for To the Barricades comment, variation in pronunciations is absolutely normal.

changes

The changes have been done. The page is now far more comprehensive in its coverage of NY Dialect. Some forms have been observed in my research but not published yet. Others have been, and I'll be adding references as time goes on.

One thing I'm not thrilled with is the short section on NJ. I don't think it makes sense to have New Jersey English as part of the overall title, but I left it at that. In fact, NJ has a number of different dialects, which are not particularly closely related. It makes no more sense to discuss New Jersey English than New York State English. But I didn't know how to deal with the issue in the article, so I left it at that. If someone has a solution, please do it. --mnewmanqc

bodega

The claim was made that the word bodega was from Taino (the indigenous language of what is now Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic). However, according to the Corominas Spanish etymological dictionary. Bodega comes originally from the Greek, Apotheca, which means larder or pantry. The word is used in peninsular (i.e., European) Spanish to mean wine cellar, and rarely in Cataluña to mean store(the Catalan word is Botiga). With all due respect, it is important to check etymologies and claims about language generally because there are a lot of widely accepted folk beliefs about them that are unsubstantiated. --mnewmanqc

three types of accent

I have eliminated the section on "Three types of accent in NYC," which claims that the dialect is characterized by a three way split between Irish, Italian, and Jewish speech patterns.

There are three main reasons for this elimination.

First, it's out of place, coming after the NJ section.

Second, it lacks rigor. The supposed distinction is just stated with no support or characterization. It may or may not be the case that such a three way distinction exists. But if so, the information about what the distinction consists of must be given if it is to be worth posting. In fact, Labov has claimed (see the reference in his 1982 book Social stratification of English in NYC, that I believe (oh) tensing and raising is more extended among Italian Americans than among Jews, who, in turn, have greater (aeh) tensing and raising (I may have this backwards). This is a difference in degree and not in kind since both groups share these same two traits, you just tend to find one stronger in each group. He says nothing about the Irish.

Third, it ignores the fact that the really prominent three way distinction is between Whites, Blacks, and Latinos, as if the latter two didn't exist or didn't at least speak their own varieties of NY English.

Let me say this. If this article is to serve as a reference, standards must be maintained in terms of claims. Holding a simple impression, belief, or opinion is not enough to publish it. You don't have to be a sociolinguist to publish here, but you should take the trouble to research and understand what it is you are publishing or the whole enterprise is little more than a discussion group.

Feel free to comment directly to me at mnewman@qc.edu

The three accents of New York are considered the New York Irish accent, New York Jewish accent, New York Italian accent. This is what the standard by most New Yorkers. If their are other accents from different groups, then it is not apart of the long-time standard, and it could be said that then they do not qualify as New York accents. 65.42.87.249 03:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, Irish, Italian and Jewish are the three most prominent distictions of the New York accents. 65.42.87.249 03:25, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

It is not a belief or impression or opinion, it is the standard used by most New Yorkers. You want to exclude it just because you don't think it's actually true. But it isn't your place to remove information that is accepted as true by the majority, just because you don't think it's true. You want to do original research, and wikipedia is not supposed to have original research. 65.42.87.249 20:14, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Science is not decided by popular opinion. If it were, then, we would have to consider creationism as a valid explaination for the origin of humans, or at least intelligent design along with evolution. That's what many people think. It comes out in poll after poll. Moreover, in the case of American language, we would have to say that the Midwestern accent is the best and that New Yorkers speak badly. That comes from the research of Dennis Preston at Michigan State. In any case, what evidence do you have that your three-way distinction is popularly accepted.

It is also not true that I think the three-way distinction you posit as true doesn't exist. It may very well. It is just that making the claim as factual is problematic because the evidence for it isn't there. If it were, you could cite some differences, which you can't, except for Labov's finding, which I acknowledge. Just as importantly, the terms you use are vague and unscientific. What do you mean "the standard used by most New Yorkers." I have no idea what you're talking about.

It is true that I am doing original research, of course. That's my job, but I am not posting my original research in the article. I do that at academic conferences and publications. When I base statements on my data, I refer speculatively and not as a publication. Most of this has previously been presented at conferences anyway. Again, contact me directly. If you're interested enough in the topic of sub-racial distinctions to comment on it, then do some original research and add to the knowledge base, which can merit getting into the article. But don't just make unsubstantiated claims. This isn't about posting beliefs as facts. mnewmanqc

As, but as I said, Wikipedia is not supposed to have original research. 65.42.87.249 00:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

So you want to remove all information on the facts on the Three Main Accents of New York City? You don't want to do only original research, you want to change past history and what is accepted. You shouldn't use wikipedia as a way to change things and rename stuff. 65.42.87.249 00:06, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

You really showed your ignorance with the Trump and Guliani comment. To speak an New York Irish accent, you do not have to be Irish-American. It's not about ethnicity, it's about the way a person talks. Colin Quinn is Irish, but he does not speak with an New York Irish accent, his accent is more New York Jewish.

You also say you do not think something should be included because of what the majority of New Yorkers believe, but what you want to do is put in what you believe. Why is what you, one person, not from New York, believe more important than what has been accepted by New Yorkers in New York City? 65.42.87.249 00:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear, 65.42.87.249: First, Of course you don't HAVE to be Irish, but it helps. If you're not, you're an exception; perhaps you grew up among so-called "Irish NY speakers". Second, Here's what gives me the right to make these changes: I am a practicing variationist sociolinguist, an expert. That's not a question of snobbery. It's just I have the training and knowledge base. I also care enough to have done the hard work to achieve that knowledge base. My being from NY or not has nothing to do with it. (It happens to be the case that I am.) Third, the problem isn't whether what you are saying is true or not. The problem is that you are making claims without any evidence to support them. It's just your opinions and impressions, which may or may not be shared by some or most other NYers. Fourth, your charging me with publishing original research here shows you don't know what research is. It involves an entire project with method, data, analysis, conclusions. It is banned here because an encyclopia should not be a way of short-circuiting the peer review process used for making theoretical or factual claims. Finally, I have tried to compromise with you and acknowledge your interest by leaving the people you cite in the article, but not going beyond what can be reasonably established as factual. I would wish for the same respect.

You aren't being reasonable because you want to remove all information on the New York Irish accent. I suspect your removals of the information is not based on any reason except for anti-Irish prejudice. 65.42.87.249 15:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Latino national heritage distinctions

I eliminated a claim that Puerto Ricans and Dominicans speak "NY Latino English" more frequently than other national heritage groups. In my research, I have collected over 50 hours of recordings from teens of all main Latin American national heritages, and I have looked for distinctions based on national heritages of speakers. While I expect I will eventually find some, I haven't yet. Instead, the main distinction seems to be based on, sucbcultural affiliation, that is Hip-Hop versus Skater versus non-affiliated. What I think may confuse people is that social class differences are also prominent. If you have any questions, contact me.

Real life examples of pronunciation

Can more real-life examples of proununciation (how certain words actually sound when pronounced in a New York/New Jersey accent), as opposed to scientific descriptions, be added to the "Pronunciation" section? This would make the article much more useful to the general public. For example, "coffee" would sound like "cawfee," etc. Thank you for your consideration of my comment. Badagnani 18:52, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

The official policy of Wikipedia (look in the section on contributions) states that pronunciation is to be given in IPA, not in the impressionisticry transcriptions, such as cawfee. So it isn't really up to the contributors. However, what you say does make sense, and I am adding a link to sound file site. mnewmanqc

Well this is a policy that should be changed. IPA is useless at best and misleading at worst for the vast majority of information seekers who come to this site. How does one go about getting such a policy reconsidered.Armandtanzarian 21:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I find IPA useful and informal transcription very misleading. For *readers* (not speakers) of English, informal transcription is the more confusing method. What's more, people pronounce "cawfee" differently depending on where they live.

Anyway, it's possible to add both types of notation à la Richard Feynman. Alternate transcriptions are not totally forbidden. --KJ 02:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a problem certainly that most readers don't know IPA. That is the reason that dictionaries don't use it, although I think they should perhaps along with their traditional representations. The problem with those representations is that they are not clear and consistent. IPA is the most universal scientific form of graphic sound representation. Also, while it's a problem for many readers, when a contributor uses it, it shows that they have some level of preparation (even an intro to linguistics class) to be able write seriously about the topic. Armandtanzarian, if you are really interested in language and pronunciation, you should just learn it. You can start with the International Phonetic Alphabet article. mnewmanqc

South Jersey

I added the section on South Jersey based on my own experience. If anyone has any questions, please ask them. I'll do my best to respond to questions on this discussion board.199.173.226.232 19:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)LT

South Jersey comments

I've always felt that the article should not combine NJ and NY. Only the area of NJ that borders on the city, including mainly Hudson and Bergen Counties, is part of the NYC dialect region. Most dialect maps (see Labov's home page) place South Jersey as related to the Philadelphia dialect area. Labov himself is from North or Central NJ, and certainly has neither a New York nor Philly accent and has claimed at least orally that his dialect area is distinct from both, in particular in its absence of a short a split. I don't think there's an article yet on Philadelphia English, but there should be. Any article on English in New Jersey would have to state that fact, but it's an unnatural marriage to put it in with New York. -mnewmanqc

I completely agree with you.199.173.226.232 14:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)LT

• As a resident of Bergen county, I think that we should only point out specific cities as having a "New York" accent. Places like Fort Lee may have a strong accent, whereas towns like Wycoff, Franklin Lakes, Oakland, Mahwah, Ramsey, etc have a fairly neutral, standard American accent. The Book "Do You Speak American?" by MacNeil and Cran divides New Jersey into 3 accent zones: a very small area bordering NYC as the "NY accent", the south with a "Mid-Atlantic" accent, and the rest of the state with a normal "Northern" accent,

Brooklyn

IS this the classic, working class, Brooklyn accent? As mentioned above, not all people with a New York accent sound alike.

Brooklyn response

Is what? I'm not sure what you mean. The article covers the entire range of the speech in the NY Dialect Region, at least briefly, with a concentration on the White version.

mistaken for mobsters?

A recent addition states: "As a result, many people are wrongly mistakened for mobsters when they talk with a New York accent"

This seems to me way over the top. If no one can justify it, I'll eliminate it in a few days.

Origins of the accent

Could the fact that New York City had a strong Dutch speaking population in it's early history affect the way New Yorkers speak? Just a thought.

Manhattan Accent?

Re: Accents by burough... My great-grandmother had what I was always told was an old "Manhattan" accent. Where the steriotypical Brooklyn Accent has the word "third" pronounced toid (or thoid), she pronounced it softly as thuurd. This could be a generational variant, as her children do not have this accent (their's is more the "educated" accent, or lack of accent, as they all went to private schools). ~~

Manhattan Accent Response

There is a kind of urban legend that some people can tell what block or at least what neighborhood someone's from by their accent. If you listen to the Labov interview on NPR (link at end of article) he talks a bit about that and claims that there are no differences. I'm more cautious in saying that there are no demonstrated differences. In any case, the 'toid' pronunciation was always highly stigmatized, and one possibility is that she avoided that pronunciation as such. Maybe she had ambitions to move up socially. It's hard to say.

Jewish language

The following section is bordering on the incoherent, and I don't have any idea how well founded it is in fact. The number of Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews in New York seems rather small in terms of the overall popuation (as opposed to, say, Bukharan Jews). Would the contributors please clean it up, find some support for what they're saying beyond they're mere beliefs, or eliminate it? They could also remove the non-standard grammatical forms and make the wording flow better. Something should be added about the prominence of yiddish words in New York English (like shmear, shmuck and others), even among non-jews.

I second this: Yiddish loan words are prevalent in and near New York City. It isn't all that unusual to hear people from other ethnic groups use expressions such as Oy gevalt! or shlepp. Durova 20:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Section needing fixing

"Many Sephardic Jews, particularly those of Spanish and Portuguese descent, used to speak the same New York dialect like Ashkenazic Jews did. Nowadays, these Sephardic Jews spoke New York Latino English as mentioned above, like all other non-Jewish Spanish speaking people did. However, the New York Latino English that these Spanish Jews spoke is a bit different than Spanish Gentiles. For Spanish Jews, they combined Judeo-Spanish and traditional NYLE into one. Mizrahi Jews did speak another variety of New York dialect. That dialect is a combination of Judeo-Arabic and traditional Brooklynese."

Hearing no response, I decided to eliminate it. I hope that we won't get into a situation of people just it back. More generally, my hope is that editors won't just add uninformed impressions. You don't have to be a linguist, but please do a bit of research before just adding something.

Southern Connecticut?

Is there any information about the accentation of southern Connecticut? In the urban areas like Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven, and Waterbury, you can hear a New York accent. Interestingly enough, similar to what was mentioned in the article, certain characteristics of these accents can also be divided by ethnicity as well (Italian, Spanish, Polish and Irish). In greater New Haven, there are even suburban varieties of these accents in places like East Haven, West Haven, Derby, Naugatuck, Valley.

Southern Connecticut answer

The Phonological Atlas of North America, has some data. (http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html). It's based on telephone surveys. The accent is not historically identical to NY though NYers moving there could change it. Some features however are related. There is a short-a split in some areas, though again the pattern is not identical to NY.

macrosocial clean up

The macrosocial section had gotten quite messy, with repetitions and topics scattered around. There were also some impressionistic pronunciations "ball like bawl" which are contrary to Wikipedia style. So I cleaned it up to the extent I was able.

Al Michaels?

This article says Michaels is born in LA. However, his wiki page has him born in Brooklyn. I've changed this page to say "despite growing up in LA".

"most recognizable accent??"

I think that any US citizen not from NY/NJ or the South would call Southern American English the most recognizable accent... I've added a "reference needed" footnote, but really I think the text should be nuked. What do others think? Brianski 00:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

"most recognizable accent??"

Southern American English is not a single distinct variety. There are a number of sometimes more related, sometimes less related dialects in the south. Also, the text says, "one of the most distinct," which is hardly disputable.

ahh, it didn't say "one of the" before, unless i hallucinated :) Brianski 13:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

You can check it in the history mnewmanqc

non-IPA and dubious assertions on origins

Before I get into a reversion war, I want to see if we get a discussion on two issues: The first is phonetic transcription:The Wikipedia style guide discourages the use of impressionistic pronunciations, such as "dem" "dese" and "dose" and "Joisy" and "Juzzy" which are currently in the article, in favor of the more exact International Phonetic Alphabet. In the next week or so I'll change the second pair. See below for the first one.

This involves unsupported claims. The recent edit added the claim for a Dutch origin for the fortition of (dh), i.e., [diz] (sorry, I can't figure out how to insert the dental subscript) for <these>. The source cited is Robert Hendrickson New York Tawk. (Edision, NJ: Castle isbn: 0785815562). However, Hendricks cites Francis Griffith, a Hoftra University professor, as not accepting "the traditional Dutch derivation" for dese and dem in favor of an Irish origin (p. xvii). However, he doesn't say that he accepts a Dutch origin either. Unless someone comes up with better support for this claim, I'll delete it in a week or so. BTW, neither Griffith nor Hendrickson as far as I can tell is a linguist. Googling Griffith, all I get are secondary references. What was he a professor of? I don't know. Hendrickson is a popular author on language, which is fine, but he knows his limits and only distills secondary sources. Unfortunately, in this case he does not say who made the purported Dutch derivation traditional so we don't have any real support for what is made as a claim of fact in the article. Here's a rule of thumb, I'd propose: If you want to cite this kind of popular work, I think it's best to find the original citation that the author is using rather than citing that author as the authority unless the author is a real expert in the field in their own right, which does not seem to be the case here. mnewmanqc

Biased

Very biased article speaking not on every accent and spending too much of the article on very little used accents. 75.3.4.54

Please explain. mnewmanqc

"on line" vs. "in line"

I've noticed that the only people who wait on line rather than in line are from the New York City/Long Island area. Should that go in this article? dcandeto 23:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it should mnewmanqc

NY dialect in NJ

The Atlas of North American English shows NY dialect extending only into the Jersey communities bordering the Hudson, and this is my experience as well. Therefore, is there some grounds for claiming that it extends to Central NJ as a recent anonymous edit has it? I'll revert it in a few days unless I get some support for that extension. mnewman

I agree that it extends to Central NJ STHayden 17:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[[Mnewman is correct. The accent of central New Jersey is not the same as that of New York (outside of Newward and Jersey City and the like), though it has some similarities. AJD 18:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I was born and raised in Central NJ, Monmouth County to be exact, and nobody who was born and raised in Monmouth or Northern Ocean county speakes with a NY accent. Many people living here to speak that way but they are all transplants. Editcml

Long Island Stronghold?

I didn't want to change it, but I'd like to know where the claim the that the New York Dialect is strongest in Nassau and Suffolk County came from. I tend to think that this is a false claim, but if it isn't it needs to be referenced. Also, I was wondering if there should be a small section involving the differences between North Shore and South Shore accents.

I don't think there is any source at all for any internal regional differences within the NY Dialect region. I would say this. The NY dialect is largely associated with White speakers who have roots in the community. These speakers are concentrated in certain areas. Bill Labov told me that in his experience, any White ethnic community in the NY Dialect Area preserves this speech, in the city or in LI. So perhaps the assertion that the dialect is strongest in LI needs to be modified. It also follows that, because there is no documented difference between north and south shores, I think there is no justification for a section on such differences. mnewmanqc 16:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I kind of figured that after re-reading the article. Thanks though.

Add a vocabulary section?

Having moved from Long Island to Ohio, I made up a list of some words I noticed were different in each region. Here's my my list:

NEW YORK vs. OHIO: Oaktag vs. Posterboard, Looseleaf vs. Writing paper, Streamers vs. Crepe paper, Soda vs. Pop, Lollipop vs. Sucker (I've been told Lollipop is the large spiral kind), Sneakers vs. Tennis shoes, Pocketbook vs. Purse, On line vs. In line, Hero vs. Sub (sandwich), Sheetrock vs. Plasterboard, Spackle vs, Mud, Shoulder (of road) vs. Berm, Couch vs. Sofa, "Where are you?" vs. "Where're you at?", "This needs to be fixed." vs. "This needs fixed.", Caramel vs. Carmel (pronunciation),

There's more, but I think some is just local stuff from the city I live in.

I love to debate with people here about how Ohio doesn't have an accent. If you look in the dictionary, Mary, Marry and Merry have different pronunciations. Here, they say all of them like "Mary".

Fun stuff... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skacire (talk • contribs) 13:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Upstate?

While this article does a fair job of metropolitan New York City speech (I have some reservations), there's a lot more to the state than just one city and its suburbs. This could be interesting to study: the Rochester-Syracuse region sounds pretty close to Midwestern speech to my ear, but perhaps there's a Canadian influence near the Erie Canal and a New England influence near Albany. Durova 20:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not what this article is about. The accent of the Erie Canal region (including Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Utica) is pretty well covered in the Northern Cities Vowel Shift article. Albany basically falls into the Western New England dialect but with heavy influence from NYC; there's no article yet that that fits well into. AJD 21:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ajd but would go further. The problem in this article is the inclusion of two unrelated topics: The various NJ dialects and the more homogeneous NYC dialect region. It should be split, but I have no idea how to do that or request that it be done. The inclusion of NYS, which is totally heterogeneous as Ajd says, would only make matters worse. It would be an arbitrary inclusion of two states. NYS makes an even less coherent potential article than NJ because of the inclusion of Western NY and Syracuse in the NCS phenomenon. A good idea for an article would be Hudson Valley dialects which would include Albany. I do not have the expertise to write it. mnewmanqc 12:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anybody yet has the expertise to write an article on Hudson Valley dialects: the research simply hasn't been done for any city between Albany and New York. One of my medium-term research plans is to gather some data from Poughkeepsie, though. AJD 19:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that, although I agree it wouldn't be very complete. The area does appear in the Atlas of NA English, though, and I think a short article could be written. I'm thinking of gathering some data from the Catskills next spring, though as part of a class. Any analysis would just be undergrads doing research. I don't have time myself. mnewmanqc 23:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Eh? The only Hudson Valley city with any data in the Atlas is Albany. AJD 01:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I relied on my memory of what I saw, but I'm not surprised. The assumption is, I think, that metropolitan areas form centers for spreading changes, and that more rural and outlying suburban regions tend to fall into their area of influence. That happened on LI with respect to the city, but I don't know about Poughkeepsie. That said, he's been interested in the region historically because of his hypothesis that the NCS is the result of a koinization of Western NE and other forms of short A split coming out of downstate, which then moved westward with the settlers. I'll try to remember to ask him at NWAV in November about it. mnewmanqc 13:40, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Right: Poughkeepsie is just far enough away from the city to be believably outside its area of influence; and I believe it has certain ties to northeastern Connecticut, as well. And note how rapidly the NY phonology drops off once you get into northern New Jersey. So it's really an open question what we'd expect to find in Poughkeepsie: the NY system unchanged? The Albany system, with a basic Western New England pattern but with an overlay of some salient New York features? A WNE system with less New York influence?

In any event, if you're interested in the koineization hypothesis for the origin of the NCS, you should totally come to my talk at NWAV. The new problem, of course, is if the WNE nasal system and the NY split short a koineized to produce the NCS, why is there no trace of the NCS in Albany? I'm thinking the answer must come down to the different between transmission and diffusion, but I want to steer clear of just-so stories here. AJD 15:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Barring a conflict, I'll be there. mnewmanqc 21:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Split Article

Unless I hear a compelling objection from Wikipedians, I will split the NYC dialect section and the NJ section into two separate articles. As I have said earlier, the two deserve their own separate treatments. mnewmanqc 22:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Dialect or accent

Surely the title of this article is wrong. There's almost nothing in it to suggest that New York has its own dialect as such. I propose it should be renamed "New York accent". --rossb 23:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Dialect is the usual term used in sociolinguistics. Accent is a vague term, referring to phonological aspects of a dialect. So even if there were no lexical and syntactic characteristics of NY English, then dialect would still be a better cover term. In fact, NY dialect has syntactic and lexical characteristics, such as those listed in the article. mnewmanqc 12:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dialect robustness

I reverted the change from "most European Americans" to "some European Americans" and added a qualification. The reason is explained in the introduction to Labov, Ash, and Boberg's Atlas of North American English, on the robustness of dialects among those brought up in a given speech community. The perception that NY dialect is not spoken by a majority of European Americna speakers in the NY metro area is likely to be caused by in-migrants, particularly in Manhattan. While their offspring may also not really be dialect speakers, they also do not form anything like the majority. mnewmanqc 15:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a doubt

New Yorkers don't pronounce deep O's like Londoners do. This article says that nought and not are pronounced with vowels 7 and 5 (of IPA chart of standard Englsih). BUT i would say that nought, caught, not and cot are all pronounced the same with a wide "a" (vowel number five of IPA chart for standard Englsih). And, words such as long, wrong, boss, and dog are pronounced with a extended vowel 6 (from IPA chart for standard Englsih).

And, the only region in the USA that still uses the deep O (vowel Nº7) without an R (like in core) is the southern area around florida and it is used only in words like dog, long and boss. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Undress 006 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

Please use IPA rather than or in addition to the chart nuymbers and grapheme references because they're a lot more transparent. In any case, nought, caught are certainly not homonyms with not and cot in NY, although since nought" isn't part of many people's vocabulary, it's not a great example. The article follows Labov's various descriptions as well as the current TELSUR atlas, as well as what's evident to anyone in the city. The low back merger is avoided by the low back chain shift, involving the tensing and raising of the former open o as described in the article. mnewmanqc 20:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

european americans

the article says that its spoken by european americans. why would that matter if you were european or not, if you were raised in new york. i dont see why someone who is algerian, nigerian, or turkish that was raised in new york wouldnt speak with the same accent as anyone else that was raised in new york.

European American has become the "term of art" in social sciences for White. The US has a history of racial dialects distinguishing ethnolects based on African Americans, European Americans, Latino, and Native American forms presumably because of past and present patterns of racial segregation and highlighting of racial identity. Check out Purnell, Thomas, Idsardi, William, and Baugh, John (1999) "Perceptual and Phonetic Experiments on American English Dialect Identification. " 'Journal of Language and Social Psychology 18 10-30 if you want actual evidence for these differences. There is reason to believe that there are distinguishable (East) Asian American forms too. Of course, not everyone who is a member of a racial group speaks the corresponding ethnic dialect, but the dialects are associated with the group, to the extent that people can usually make racial identifications based on voice alone. mnewmanqc 14:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

i dont doubt there are african, asiatique american ways of speech, etc. however, i have seen enough people who are black, puerto rican, and chinese talk with that same bugs bunny accent to say that the accent is not restricted to only the whites. i would argue that anyone who grows up in new york can have that same accent. we are not talking about the ghettos like you see in france or germany. here we are talking about the new york accent. but if you want to talk about that then we can open up a whole other discussion about segregation in the u.s.

Where does it say it's "restricted"? If it does, that should be changed. There certainly are non-Whites who speak with the classic NY Dialect. Take for example, Dominic Carter on NY1. He has all the features as far as I can tell. Then again, there are Whites (and Asians and others) who speak NYLE and AAE. There are also NYers of all origins who have no NY features. It's basic dialectology that not everyone with identity X speaks the dialect associated with that identity. However more do that don't, and more importantly, the respective racial dialects began with, and remain centered on and associated with the respective racial communities even by those who do not speak them. The mention of the association is valid and the claim that most Whites speak that way. If you avoid the racial association based on the exceptions, you miss those social facts. Again, I refer to you Baugh, and his various works on linguistic profiling (or just google "linguistic profiling," which shows the real world consequences of racial dialects in the US.

It just should not say it is spoken exclusively by one racial group.mnewmanqc 23:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Notable speakers

Do we really want a section on famous dialect speakers? There was one a while back that got huge, and then someone sensibly edited it into oblivion. I suggest we do the same thing again before it gets out of hand. mnewmanqc 15:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Examples are particularly useful for foreign speakers coming to terms with different American dialects (it's easy to underestimate the interest in this for many students of English). If we restrict it to its current size with editorial supervision, this will be useful. Alternatively, we could dedicate a separate page to such a list, although I would rather we avoid that for the sake of the reader's convenience.

Macrosocial cleanup

The article states the New York City Area dialect only covers Newark and Jersey City. This is about as wrong as you can possibly get. While Northeast New Jersey for the most part is rhotic, Northeast New Jersey and New York City residents use the same slang, the same greetings, and a lot of the same basic pronunciations. This comes from experience having grown up in the Paterson area and moving to Brooklyn.

The Northeast New Jersey accent is the New York City accent, just a little thinner.

vandalism

The page is being repeatedly vandalized by someone, I'll assume a needy kid--not that many great editors are teens, but...--with an IP address in Cherry Hill, NJ. I hope he (again I'll assume it's a boy) just wants some attention. If so, here it is. In any case, it's getting a bit tedious. I'm wondering if we should request that the page be temporarily put on registered user only restriction. Any thoughts? mnewmanqc 01:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Christopher Walken

He knows how to tone the accent down (because he's a great actor), but even then he still has traces of it (dentalization of d's and t's, etc.). 208.104.45.20 22:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

This article needs cleanup. In places it reads as if people arguing different points of view have added to it, but their contributions have not been well integrated. PatGallacher 01:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I was particularly thinking of passages like this: "Now, the most secure strongholds of the New York dialect are arguably the suburban areas of Nassau County, western Suffolk County, Westchester County, northeastern and southwestern Queens, and Staten Island, although some strong New York dialect speakers remain in urban sections of Queens, the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Manhattan. This may be true, although no published study has found any feature that varies in this way beyond local names." PatGallacher 11:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

internal coherence

Yes, that's probably right. I'll look through and see about what changes are needed in the next three weeks, unless someone gets to it first. I think I remember a long evolution in this particular case in which the last sentence originally referred to supposed (though undemonstrated) internal variation in the basic White dialect, which then got deleted without the cautionary final sentence. That sentence now looks like it refers to ethnic differences, which is not what it was meant to do. So, I guess it needs a clean up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnewmanqc (talk • contribs) 13:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Accent vs dialect

There's a conflation of the words "accent" and "dialect" throughout the article, insofar as they are used here to mean the same thing, which they aren't at all - "accent" being how the words sound, and "dialect" being what the words are, ie in their differences between regional and standardised language (linguist Max Weinreich wrote: "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy."). It's entirely possible to speak, for example, the British dialect of English in a New York accent (simply by saying "trousers" instead of "pants", "lift" rather than "elevator", etc) or Argentinian Spanish in a Castillian accent. Being from north-east England, I speak in a Geordie accent regardless of whether I'm speaking standard English or the local dialect.