Talk:Other Losses

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Old talk

There were 380,000 germans in this country as POWs...75 thousand went home at the end of the war..many stayed here....the rest were sent back in 1946..where they remained as POWs in British and French camps until 1949 or 1950............. http://www.traces.org/2002conference.lcarlson.html

again....this type of genocide could not be hidden...would be impossible to hide from the general public...all horrors are found out...certainly sooner than 50 years later.....World War II happenned..and many people who fought it are still alive...as are their siblings and children.....the history of this is really not old enough for the "revisionists" to make such claims..they should wait another 50 years or so..to be sure all the participants are dead and buried before they start to rewrite history.....make something up about the Civil War, World War I or something..that way there are no survivors left to argue with..and you can pretend you are so knowledgable to the ignorant who care to listen.........

let me see...Eisenhower killed millions of german prisoners...ok...where are the photos of this..and the witnesses..there were many who witnessed the Germans killing jews etc...many pictures..many leftover possessions.......this is as ridiculous as me saying that..let me think of a good one..all the US Military Police were drag queens who liked little boys.....where are the bodies...would be hard to hide millions of bodies...hmmm...where are their clothes?..hmmm...where are all the GI's who took part in this genocide?..certainly one would have come forward..besides the non-credible ones I have seen....two out of how many that would have been killing them....my question is why?..why would anyone come up with this sort of nonsense?....better yet..where are all the relatives of the so called dead german prisoners?..surely they would have spoken out about why their loved ones never returned home from American POW camps...and millions were killed?...how many did we have over here...........if millions were killed..then millions of germans would have been outraged..as they would have found out...my gosh our governemnt can keep that a secret.no...no government can keep mass genocide a secret....even the execution of only a few hundred prisoners by the germans could be kept a secret..and there always survivors..plese fine the bodies..or did eisenhower cremate all of them?

ridiculous

mhermenMav, Ortolan & user:H.J., I have tried my best to be accomodating to user:H.J. and the new information she has uncovered. I also tried to present this information from the Wikipedia's neutral point of view.

I welcome any suggestions, especially from user:H.J., on how to improve this article or Dwight Eisenhower.

Sincerely, Ed Poor

text from Talk:Dwight D. Eisenhower

user:H.J., unless YOU bring some acceptable proof of this hypothesis that does not come from some Holocaust revisionist website with neo-Nazi links, I will remove your additions every time I see them. [[User:Danny|Danny]

Danny, read again what I had put in last. I took out all reference to Buscue, whose name someone other than me had inserted to begin with. I am stating (and showing the website) by the German Government German Historical Museum with the Missing Person figures of the end of 1947 as 1.8 mill POWs and 1.6 mill civilians, by the Red Cross. The Senator's proof to the Senate for the famine is not known to me, nore do I know if it still exists or if it was destroyed with the records as well. General George Patton, another big player in Germany, by coincidence accidentally died Dec 1945.

Proof on internet are the missing under Allied Control Military Occupation Government. The Allied Control, Eisenhower, had set up and controlled every function in Germany from May 5, 1945 until 1949, after which a limited German Government was allowed to function. If you want to add missing persons to the headline column of the POW's and the Starvation, that would be alright with me.user:H.J.

Proof or no piece. Danny

What do you mean ,proof ? user:H.J.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The proof you tried to bring last night at German POWs was insidious. If you want to condemnd President Eisenhower of genocide, bring proof of your accusations. Danny

I much prefer to have Eisenhower cleared of this. But with the apparent destruction of records over several years and absolutely no one bringing any proof to clear him I can only go by numbers of people in his time, who acused him and not only him, but the administration. Unfortunately. user:H.J.

This is getting ridiculous. People are innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. Claiming something and then saying the proof (records) do not exist (were destroyed) is hardly proof either. The only people you have brought that said anything like that so far are one Senator better known for developing the jukebox, another Senator who also said that White people have the inalienable right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of dead niggers," a neo-Nazi revisionist website, and an author who quotes someone who says he was misquoted. Spare me. Danny

I agree. This page is on my watchlist (as are others that user:H.J. has touched) and I will revert anything that is presented here that does not come with some legit proof. --mav 18:51 Aug 3, 2002 (PDT)

I will leave it in if and only if there is adequate proof of your accusations. Danny

end text from Talk:Dwight D. Eisenhower

Gareth wrote:

I should know better than to stick my oar in on the non-superficial... :)

But I say thank you. In fact, I already incorporated some of Ambrose's stuff to balance what user:H.J. found. --Ed Poor

To User:Ed Poor et al, thank you for putting the seperate section in. While it seems new, it is actually not new at all, rather it has been well covered (up) for decades. Could the personally selected Eisenhower biographer possibly have anything to do with this ? I would like to read official US government statistics and statements, that could clear this up, but is that possible ? It is said that the majority of the US documents on this episode were destroyed in 1947. user:H.J.

Why is this an article in the Wikipedia? IF this information is wroth introducing, which I doubt, it should be under an article on the biography of Eisenhower. It does NOT rate its own separate article. -- Zoe

It was a part of the Eisenhower biography, but for now it has been branched off. user:H.J.

The info here is too detailed for the main article user:H.J. -- now that this topic has its own article a better explanation of the evevents can be presented (NPOV of course rulling the day). --mav

I saw the history below. I don't understand why it rates our attention, let alone all of the smoke and heat. -- Zoe

Zoe, at best this article may become a sub-article of the main Eisenhower one if it is made to conform to NPOV. The reason it was taken out of the main article is because it was too detailed, highly POV, and was more an essay about his actions rather than the actions themselves. Besides the main article is already on the longish side and needs some trimming as is -- the addition of such a large amount of text was not needed. There is already a paragraph lead-in to this sub-article in the main article. -mav

Am I imagining it, or do the numbers keep changing each revision? ;-) Danny

I should note that James Bacque isn't the only author to make these allegations. From "Saving Private Power" (ISBN 188712845x -- note the x at the end of the ISBN, link won't work):

"Captured Germans held in France under the command of General Dwight D. Eisenhower were systematically starved," writes David K. Wright (1)...

(1) is p. 70 of A Multi-cultural Portrait of World War II, David K Wright, published by Marshall Cavendish, 1994 ISBN 1854356631, but it doesn't show up in pricescan, so see http://vax1.memphis.lib.tn.us/MARION/AFB-7510

I have not had a chance to read David Wright's books, so I don't know what he references. djk

Wright's book is part of a young adult reference series. It was published after Bacque's book, and there is a good chance that Wright's source for the quote is actually the Bacque book. Wright himself is not an expert, I don't think -- from his list of works, it appears he's a professional textbook writer... without more information, I think we have to discount the value of his support. JHK

In the same vein, Bacque is not a historian but a novelist. Danny

Hence, "Canadian novelist James Bacque wrote..." (see Dwight Eisenhower). --Ed Poor

Regarding

The 13.500.000 food packages received by the International Red Cross designated for the prisoners were left to spoil and returned to the Red Cross.

Does this mean that Eisenhower returned spoiled food to the Red Cross? What would the Red Cross want with spoiled food?
If the 13.5 million food packages were still edible, what did the Red Cross do with them? Did they distribute them to other starving people?
What reason did Eisenhower give for returning the packages.

If these questions are answered, the article will be much better. --Ed Poor

I removed the following: A leading daily even wrote, that Mr. Gollancz did not get the full dept of the policy "On the contrary it (the starvation) is the product of foresight. It was deliberatly planned at Yalta by Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill, and the program in all its brutality was later confirmed by Truman, Attlee, and Stalin.... The intent to starve the German people to death is being carried out with a remorselessness unknown in the western world since the Mongol conquest"...

"Denmark had in vain, drawn the attention of Britain, the United States and UNRRA to the facts (that they have increased and ample surplus food stocks nearest to Germany), but have received no reply. There are records, that plenty of food was available in Germany and in Europe, but that it was deliberately not passed on the German civilians, nore to German POW's.

If you have proof of these claims, please show it. Otherwise, it's inappropriate here. Give us the name of the "leading daily" as well, or don't quote them. -- Zoe

I found an eyewitness account [1] by an American GI about a prison camp where 50,000 German soldiers given short rations; some of these prisoners starved to death. Now we just have to account for the other 8,950,000 Bacque was talking about. --Ed Poor

This topic is, at best, a subject that is controversial even among professionals, and at worst, sheer crankery on par with Holocaust Revisionism. There just aren't enough hard facts to warrant an encyclopedia entry. --Marknau

Not only that, but we might all be the victim of propaganda. Consider this source [2] which links its accusations of US genocide to its repudiation of Israel's claim to statehood. *sigh* All roads lead to the Middle East, eh? --Ed Poor

I removed controversial Senator Eastland of Mississippi. It is not my intention to post controversial people. I have/had no idea ,who he is, other that he was a US senator. Does not reflect well on the US senate,does it?, if it is true that he was a racist.

True. Of course, Germany would never elect a racist, would it? Danny

To Ed Poor, on the 50.000 German soldiers reported by one American GI, that was for that one camp, that he was a US POW guard in. There have been many camps with 50.000 or so each (many of them civilians, women and children, who were herded in as well.

I have not seen anyone quoting and posting an official government site, giving clear information.

Why not ?

Is that, because the records were mostly destroyed between 1947- 50, as it is said ? user:H.J.

Or is it possible that it never happened? It's hard to find documentation on something that doesn't exist. -- Zoe

I am against war atrocities. One of the reasons I left the army, abandoning a promising prospective career as an officer, was that I did not want to be put in a position where I would either have to commit an atrocity or face courtmartial. If there is evidence of atrocities, it does not matter to me whether "our side" or "their side" committed them. I still hate atrocities. Exposing them in an encyclopedia MIGHT make it less likely that such atrocities will be repeated. --Ed Poor

I agree, Ed, if there is PROOF of these accusations, then I see no problem in including them, but this is all speculation until proof is presented. -- Zoe

Danny, when Hitler took over the power in 1933, he was put in by International Financiers. The majority Social Democratic Party, SPD of Germany was outlawed when Hitler took over. Hardly a true election. I thought I had stated that in several of my entries. I guess I need to point this out some more.

Odd, the way how so many of our lovely little dictators, such as Noriega, Sadam Hussein, BinLaden, get put into power, isn't it?

To Ed, right now you still have a choice, people then did not, they were drafted.

Zoe, if you want to look for proof, you need to go to the US archives, and go talk to the GI's such as the US POW prison guard Michael Brech, whose testimony was posted here. You can also go and help the 1.7 million German family members find the remains of their loved one. and take a chovel along. user:H.J.

No. YOU are the one making the claims. It is NOT my responsibility to try to prove it or not. If you have proof, YOU provide it. If not, take this out of the Wikipedia. -- Zoe

user:H.J. -- Hitler was elected legally. There is no doubt to this fact. The Nazis recieved a large enough percentage of the vote that they were initially part of a coalition government. The fact that Hitler was appointed Chancellor and that the actions of his government are unpleasant do not make them less legal. The SPD was legally disbanded AFTER Hitler legally came to power. None of this was forced on the German people or rigged. All of the people here are willing to listen to your accusations, but unfortunately, you never really provide very good sources for us to verify what you've said. clearly no one can just take off and visit the archives or talk to ex-guards -- and I doubt that you have, either. So show us verifiable sources -- even on the internet. Just remember that your sources also need to be reliable and in their entirety, too -- not just chunks of speeches or even official reports tthat might be taken out of context. Remember -- ther is an awful lot of what is called Holocaust revisionism perpetrated by people who deny the Holocaust and who still claim that there's an international Jewish conspiracy. People like this will pervert the truth whenever they can, all the while making it plausible. We have to make very sure that the wikipedia does not unwittingly become a publisher of this type of "history".JHK

Thanks, JHK. I was just about to respond, but I see you beat me to it. Danny

Yes, and the Communist rulers of all the eastern European countries were all elected legally too

Will get some websites later, but right now I just happened to glance in for a second user:H.J.

I'm sorry, user:H.J. -- what the HELL is your point? If you're saying that communist elections in Eastern Europe were on a par with Hitler's election, that's bullshit. After Communist takeover, there was no attempt to have democratic elections as we understand them in the west -- since ther was only one party, one can hardly expect that those countries would have democratic multi-party elections. Whether you think that's ok (or whether any of us do -- I hardly think any reasonable person believed that people living in the Soviet world had any real political choices or input) is beside the point. The election of Adolf Hitler was free and fair. Period. What you don't seem to understand is that the German electoral system was set up in a way that parties often had to form coalition governments. Hitler certainly did not have a clear majority, but they had a considerable victory which allowed them to have clout in the Reichstag and to ensure Hitler's appointment. There was nothing shifty about it.JHK

I have just removed 8 paragraphs of the speech. This is not the place to put speeches. Also, I removed some of the claims that seemed a little exaggerrated. For instance, 10 thousand pages of testimony with 400 thousand eyewitnesses: that is 40 per page, provided there is nothing else in the documents. With about 30 lines per page, I can only wonder how much evidence they gave. Danny

This James Bacque wrote his book more than ten years ago. Where are the German historians paying any attention to him, pro or con? If there are 1.7 million corpses of starved POWs popping up out of the ground, someone responsible and non-revisionist must have noticed.Ortolan88 18:25 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

This site (the Geman Historical Institute) http://www.ghi-dc.org/bulletinF98/bulletin_f98#Fact lists some German historians who think Bacque is wrong. --rmhermen

Also, what's the source for that Patton quote? Source, and date? Vicki Rosenzweig

New York Times, September 22, 1945, "The Nazi thing is just like a Democrat-Republican fight." Patton was strongly against the denazification policy, believing that to remove all Nazis from government posts would cripple Germany. That's for a Patton article, though, but I will fix the quote meanwhile. Ortolan88 20:28 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

To Orlolan88, I just found a letter on internet : James Bucque Answers a Critic, which appeared in " The Times Literary Suplement" Aug 20, 1993

Bacque states, that Richard Boyland,senoir archivist at US National Archives recently discovered US Army Reports, that plainly state that the "Other Losses" cathegory of prisoners meant death and escapees. (It is known that escapees were shot right away.) Colonel Philip S. Lauden verified. And Bacque 's book was written with help of an Army person (I do not have the book and cannot think of the name right now).

German Red Cross Records of 1947 48 show, that several million people were missing. Everything was handled by Military Occupation Forces, US, GR. Britain and Soviet Union until 1949. German records cannot give answers. Soviet records are all complete. [[3]]

user:H.J.

Of course several million people were missing. EIGHT million had died in concentration camps, and who knows how many more were killed in battle and bombings? Interesting that the title of your link is "revisionism". -- Zoe

That's not a German historian, that's one guy you can't identify and an Army colonel from somewhere or other. Ortolan88 20:28 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

By the way, user:H.J., your link doesn't work. -- Zoe

I broke down the link a little. Try http://www.corax.org/revisionism . In its own words, the site is "Dedicated to examining the disparity between "the Holocaust" as it is commonly known, and the actual historiography of "the Holocaust." It is a Holocaust revisionism site linked with the "Institute for Historical Review," which, in turn, is linked to various Nazi apologists. Hmmm ... Danny

More, the institute's director, Mark Weber (himself a former neo-Nazi), is linked to William Pierce, who recently died. Other prominent neo-Nazis active in the movement include Ernst Zundel of Canada. Quite a group actually. Danny

Did you not read the article on the Bacque book, HJ? The old man you defined "other losses" says that Bacque deliberately twisted his meaning. Also, escaped prisoners on both sides were often shot -- that was one of the things allowed for by the Geneva conventions, just as soldiers dressed as civilians could be treated as spies. Sorry, but you can't legitimately include escaped prisoners in your count. Also, you still owe us (all of us who have asked for sources and evidence we can review ourselves) a bunch of answers -- or is this going to be yet another tedious episode where you refuse to do anything to ease the process besides make accusations against people who question your choice of subject and use of sources? JHK

http://www.google.com type in Richard Boylan, senior archivist US National Archives user:H.J.

And up pops a letter to the editor by, guess who, James Bacque, on that same revisionist web site. Golly, how silly I feel doubting you. Ortolan88 21:13 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

So I typed in Richard Boylan, National Archives, and found a bunch of stuff that says he works at the archives and has been helpful...Please try to offer something useful... your credibility is slipping by the minute, HJ. JHK

I'm at the point now where I'm not really intersted in anything user:H.J. has to say on this subject, so if she wants to make changes to this article (or delete it altogether, which would be my preference), I will see what she does and decide on my own whether or not it needs redacting. -- Zoe

user:H.J., you've done it again -- the site you linked to is an anti-semitic Holocaust revisionist site. The article by Bacque is a critique of John Keegan, one of the world's foremost military historians. Please go to that website I told you about and READ about how to evaluate sources before you embarass yourself further. Many of us have suggested this to you again and again, but to no avail. It's getting fairly sad. JHK

Like I said above, it's essentially a Liberty Lobby front. Danny

Here's all you need to know about that site, a putrid and disgusting "satire": http://www.corax.org/revisionism/satire/010215charmin.html

You'd be better off taking my word for it. I don't call things putrid and disgusting lightly. Check the URL for a hint as to the topic and then proceed at your own risk. Ortolan88 21:35 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

I don't think this article stands up. Ortolan88 21:35 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

You just beat me to it. I had written, Yes, why don't we burry it for another 50 years. user:H.J.

The sad thing is, I don't think user:H.J. believes any of this -- I think she's probably a really nice lady who cares about the truth, but is too wrapped up in her own theories to be bothered by things like legitimate research, etc. JHK

user:H.J. - Why did you remove the assertions of Senator Eastland? His quotes were perhaps the best verifiable source of evidence you found. Is it because you are unwilling to make a link between 1940s Germany and a man who hated Jews? If so, the irony would only be surpassed by your pitifulness. Olof

Olof, no I had moved it to Dwight Eisenhower, from where it was removed by Danny . user:H.J.

But you wrote on this page "I removed controversial Senator Eastland of Mississippi." Furthermore, I can't find any part of the Eisenhower page history which contains the Eastland comments, so I doubt that Danny removed them. [[User:Olof|Olof]

Olof, sorry I had glanced and just read senator, while Danny had just removed the section with the senator Homer E. Capehart from Dwight Eisenhower.

You are actually looking for senator Eastland. That you can find on History: July 31 16:09, removed by me.

I had meant to delete this part with the Buscque quote, which someone other than me had put in. We had yesterday agreed to take controversial people out. I have tried to take Buscque out from the Dwight Eisenhower article several times, but I guess Danny likes him to be in (he keeps putting it back).

This is getting muddled, but I am definately not sticking my head in the sand as you seem to think. user:H.J.

I put him in because he is the only source you can give. By the way, why did you just remove Slr's contribution to the talk page, user:H.J.? Danny

Danny, I did not remove any comment by Rubenstein, I just looked for it , but cannot find anything, or else i would submit it. Rubenstein, please re-enter your comment.

Here they are, for what they are worth -- I don't know what happened.

Okay, I thought I could follow these exchanges as a relatively disinterest observer. But I finally checked out the web-site that is the source of one of the cited documents making the allegations against the occupying powers in general and Eisenhower in particular.

Did you know that one of the articles at the website is on "the WTC demolition?" Yes, it argues that there was no Arab involvement in the destruction of the WTC; that it was a deliberate demolition executed by Americans. What is the proof? Because the people at this website cannot believe that it could have been otherwise.

I find the article by Bacque to make effectively the same argument. It is written as a sort of mystery-story (in other words, the narrative structure is the author slowly discovering more and more facts that lead him to a certain conclusion) which has some emotional effect but is not, to my way of thinking, at all convincing. The author repeatedly asserts that "documents prove" genocide, or something like it. In my experience, documents do help prove things, but what they prove is often not obvious. Documents, especially the ones cited here, are written under very complex circumstances and seldom can be taken at face value.

user:H.J. raises two questions: How many Germans died under Allied occupation, and why did they die? These are reasonable questions, but the answers are not evident, and contemporary documents need to be analyzed and interpreted in context. The article cited does not do that.

I imagine that what I am writing will be obvious to everyone out there save one. Sorry. Slrubenstein

My source has not been Buscque, someone else put his name in the article.

I had removed it several times. I am just stating, that there were 1.8 mill German POW's missing plus 1.6 mill. German civilians missing during the administration by Eisenhower and the Allied Control Council from May 8, 1945 till the end of 1947. Period. That Buscue has searched records and has brought that to light now, has nothing to do with the facts as they were recorded and stated by the German Historical Institute GHI and Bundesrepublik (on the website I listed) in 1947. user:H.J.

In 1998 the German Historical Institute says that 1 million POW's are not missing and that Bacque's work is awful. http://www.ghi-dc.org/bulletinF98/bulletin_f98#Fact --rmhermen

rmhermen,

just for the record, the German Historical Institute is located in Washington DC user:H.J.

And it is the source you quoted. Which does not support but denies your accusation. Including these professors: Wilfried Mausbach (GHI), Hans-Jürgen Schröder (University of Giessen), Christof Strauß (University of Heidelberg),

who sure aren't Americans. This is a dead issue, user:H.J. - give it up. --rmhermen

user:H.J. & rmhermen, I put in James Bacque because the first 'pedia accusation of Eisenhower-caused genocide appeared to have been taken, point by point, from an Bacque article I found on the web. I like to cite sources, because it helps the reader evaluate the relibility of claims. I think Bacque is incorrect, and I think that readers who follow the link to his article will quickly realize that Bacque is incorrect. (For those who are slow, there's always Stephen Ambrose; perhaps I should add more of Ambrose's rebuttal to this article.) --Ed Poor

If user:H.J. wasn't quoting Bacque, quite possible, because she doesn't spell his name right, then she wasn't quoting anybody at all except herself and her nasty web sites. Sorry user:H.J., but we folks have been very courteous and forbearing, giving the benefit of the doubt, looking at your sources, and the article doesn't stand up. Maybe it happened, there were lots of people killed in huge batches in the 20th century, innocent civilians, Russian kulaks, Polish army officers, Rwandans, soldiers on the Western front, citizens of Dresden, citizens of Nanking, Japanese POWs and slave laborers, German POWs starved to death by the Russians, who declared them to have no status at all and simply locked them up to die, rerurning Russian POWs who were killed by their own country because they had seen too much of "the good life" as German POWs, citizens of Tokyo and two other Japanese cities, and millions more. Some of these were killed by people I consider my "enemies", some of these were killed by people I consider "on my side", but it's all horrible and unjustified to me, and maybe Eisenhower killed German POWs too, but there is evidence for all the other instances I mention, but we are still waiting for your evidence on this one.

I say boil it down to a paragraph or two and move along, pending actual evidence.Ortolan88 13:04 Aug 2, 2002 (PDT)

Better to keep it in, as a prime example of historical revisionism or perhas even of a hoax. It reminds me of Bart Testa's article "Making crime seem natural", which analyzed a 5-part series of newspaper articles that purported to chronicle the seduction, brainwashing and ultimate rescue of a young Canadian man from the clutches of the "Moon cult". Testa found all the dramatic elements which Slrubenstein began alluding to. (Sorry, the article isn't on line; it's a chapter in a book I read not long after joining the Unification Church.) *sigh* As the poet says, "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." --Ed Poor

I just read the quote from the Capehart speech. It says nothing about a German famine. It is about a Europe-wide famine which user:H.J. seems to claim didn't happen. And no where does it mention German POW's. --rmhermen

rmhermen , Read Dwight Eisenhower and Marshall Plan

Mr. President, the cynical and savage repudiation of these solemn declarations (It is not the intention of the Allies to destroy or enslave the German people) ,which has resulted in a major catastrophe, cannot be explained in terms of ignorance or incompetence. This repudiation, not only of the Potsdam Declaration, but also of every law of God and men, has been deliberately engineered with such a malevolent cunning, and with such diabolical skill, that the American people themselves have been caught in an international death trap.... For nine months now this administration has been carrying on a deliberate policy of mass starvation without any distinction between the innocent and the helpless and the guilty alike... The first issue has been and continues to be purely humanitarian. This vicious clique within this administration that has been responsible for the policies and practices which have made a madhouse of central Europe has not only betrayed our American principles, but they continue to betray the GIs who have suffered and died, and they continue to betray the American GIs who have to continue their dirty work for them." The senator also stated: "The fact can no longer be supprssed, namely, the fact that it has been and continues to be, the deliberate policy of a confidential and conspiratorial clique within the policy-making corcles of this government to draw and quarter a nation now reduced to abject misery."(referring to the Four sectors of military occupation government of German.

I had posted the senator's comments early on in the Eisenhower debate, but it was removed and changed around. It was not only the POW's who were (alledged deliberately) starved. user:H.J.

I told you I read it -- it still doesn't say anything about Americans deliberately starving German POW's. If you bothered to read any of the rebutals of Bacque work, you would have seen that displaced person in France were being fed the same ration as German POW's or German civilians. Just because one American senator said so doesn't make it true. --rmhermen

For example, user:H.J., Senator Joseph McCarthy of Wisconson claimed to have a list of the names of those people in government who were communists. He even waved it in the air so the press could see that he had it. His allegations caused one of the most egregious offenses against American civil liberties in US history -- and there was no list at the time McCarthy claimed to have it!!! JHK

German POWs were fed the same rations that the US Army was providing to the civilian population.

Aren't the relevant conventions that you have to feed POWs the same rations as you feed your own soldiers? Or do they postdate WW2? Curiosity only... Martin 23:52 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The Geneva Conventions were in effect at this time. Pizza Puzzle

It is POV to imply that Bacque is "not a professional historian"; he makes money writing about history, he IS a professional historian. It is also POV to state that he is a "historical revionist" - that is a conntoted term of disparagement and should be attributed to somebody, such as Ambrose.Pizza Puzzle

I was just watching a WWII film and saw a column of German POWs that went for miles; as always when I see such footage, I do wonder what happaned to all those POWs. Although I havent taken any effort to look at this topic, I find it strange that I have never found any information on the treatment of German POWs, in continental Europe, during the war. All I have found are a couple of brief references to POW camps in Wisconsin and England. Pizza Puzzle

When I was stationed in the Air Force in Germany (way too many years ago), my roommate and I went into a local gasthaus where there was a table where a group of the local regulars sat. While my roommate and I were there, one of the elderly locals got up and walked past where we were sitting. On his way back, he stopped and sat down next to us. He could tell from our military haircuts that we were Americans, and he said, "America! I love America! It is my second home! I was a prisoner of war in Texas!" :) RickK 00:02 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

If he really think that from 3,3 Mln German POW captured by Soviets only about 426 000 or so died? They were common GULAG prisoners!At liest 30% of them perished.It seems Bacque is a GULAG revisionist. I am not comfortable with this article at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.86.22.112 (talk) 00:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC) User: RobNZ;10th Jan 2008. From what I have read it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Germany was in a pretty bad state after capitulation. Troops were exhausted, people were hungry, the Dutch were staving, the cities were flattened, nothing was much was working. While the magnitude can always be debated there is a lack of discussion about what happened to the German POW in Germany and other places after the war. I first became aware of their plight about 30 years ago after reading a book "Iron Coffins" which documents first hand the experince of a U Boat Captain. In his book he was talks about his time in a camp post War under the French and it certainly was not pleasant, other reports back up the premise that the French were worse than the British and Americans. From what else I have read by the likes of Anthoney Beavour and Max Hastings it was clearly a a nasty time. There was certainly a time when the USA administration was very verbally at least ruhtless towards the Germans, Yalta confernece reports were very concerning with Stalin and Roosevelt's rhetoric re the treatment of Germany post war were very concerning to Churchill according to Anthony Beavour. I have alos read personal accounts of others who were subjetced to being palced in open field etc and subject to short rations. I think it is important to have this discussion and for this to be published because there is a distinct gap of research and missing records don't help. After all the philosophy I believe is that two wrongs don't mean a right and sweeping this under the carpet would be wrong. I have been interested in this because my late father was in WW2 with the New Zealand 20th Battalion and saw action in North Africa Greece Crete and Italy. He was wounded and taken prisoner of war but was fortunate enough to escape before being transported to Germany. He always said he was treated well by the Germans, in fact he said that the medical attention improved significantly once they took over the hospital that he was in. In 1945 many of the German soldiers also suffered from disease and malnutrition even before being taken prisoner, the scale of the numbers would be a nightmare logistically for even today. One thing for sure is that I would rather have been in a US Camp than a French or even worse Soviet one. They did live in open fields for long periods with no shelter and little food or ammentities. One of the encouraging things that came later was the helping hand to reconstruct Germany via the Marshall plan so the US eventually came to its senses, perhaps once it had finally figured out that the next Hitler was Stalin. Please remember that the war was supposed to be about democrasy and there for tolorence and different perspectives should be welcome. Rob from New Zealand —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.246.24.51 (talk) 02:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

POWs, Jews, comparative suffering & don't forget MEDIA CONTROL

If you claim Bacque is a liar because you love Eisenhower or want to kiss jewish ass for what sick reason (christian zionism maybe), fine. If you believe Bacque is right, don't waste your time with these creatures. No mountain of evidence would sway the believers (gentile or otherwise)of the Holohoax to publicly admit to an innacuracy - other than force. The Jew Lipstadt did not refute the "soap tales" in '81 because the maligning and scarring of successive generations of German kids was gnawing at her sensitive conscience. It is because of a slowly (too slowly) rising revolt against these jewish victim tales (which deny any complicity in the jewish soviet rampage against Europeans) and manipulation of Gentile guilt culminating in blank checks, F-15s, Apaches and anti-Palestinian hunting sqauds, torture and finally the great American black-eye by pissed-off Arabs on 9-11. In arguing the facts with Jews, remember:after you've driven home a point winning concession in front of witnesses you will find that "you close your hand on a jelly-like slime, which pours through your fingers, but collects again in a instant" and "the Jew will continue to spout the same trash the next day with no recollection of the previous day, except that he had proven his point then" - to paraphrase Hitler from Mein Kampf.

(I have deleted this section because it contained nothing but anti-Semitic nonsense)--134.220.28.171 17:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am curious how this quote about Jews was used. If it was used as evidence of a point of logic, how can you post articles from someone who uses Hitler as his source? Jesse1234567 14:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone Abused POWs

My grandfather personally witnessed the British shooting a captured, disarmed soldier for picking up a cigarette. However, his stay in England as a POW was otherwise uneventful (although much longer than it should have been). A coworker of mine who was stationed in Germany (I am American, BTW) once told me a story about an old bus driver he knew on base who used to toss a cigarette butt between two German POWS just to see them fight over it. According to him, this guy once saw a POW stab another to death in such a fight- this to demonstrate what animals the Germans are. So Americans still have their issues about the war, still to this day. All that hatred has to go somewhere. People need to feel they have something over you. The victors write the history books. What I have to say, well, that's just some family heirloom or an old wives' tale.

Still, you would think that the horrible conditions in the Soviet-sector German refugee camps would make it into some American book somewhere. You would think that 1000 German children starving to death _per day_ would attract somebody's attention. You would think that the French policy of randomly killing German boys (some as young as 8 or 9 years of age- they were deathly afraid of ex-NAPOLA and AHS students) would warrant some kind of outcry by even the West German government. But no. The Germans were always too interested in making nice with everybody and still are; a completely misguided, obescient, and sickening worldview on their part.

If America had been exposed to anything like this, we would still be waging WW2 until the last of us were dead. Maybe that's why people are still so suspicious of the Germans, one because of a secret fear of reprisal, but also out of loathing for a people who could take such outlandish abuse lying down. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-Nazi in any way, but there are certain things that people simply shouldn't swallow... if you do, it reflects badly on you.

Who cares about the Nazis?

My grandfather was in the first infantry division to meet the Russian forces in Germany. He said it made him feel proud that Germans civilians were trying to reach US troops to surrender, rather than be left to the Russians. His unit was processing so many POWs and civilians that the Russians advanced farther than the US commanders had wanted. He said the surrenders were slowing them down way more than any German opposition. Clearly there were a ton of POWs to deal with. After the German surrender, his unit did house-to-house searches for weapons. He said they had to confiscate any guns, including antiques and hunting rifles, and destroy them. After that, they did security patrols. He said during the winter food shortage was a big problem. He said they had extra food but were ordered not to give it to civilians, but he said they sometimes gave out the MREs they didn't like anyway. He said the there were lots of families with lots of kids, and the poor families before had relied on hunting. He said he used to go hunting and leave the game on the porches of families he thought needed food. He said if *they* had been caught, they were supposed to be shot, but would have probably just been disciplined. So, from my grandfather's account, there was a order that anyone providing food to German civilians would be shot. But he couldn't have done what he did without some help or at least indifference of some sort from other solders... you can't shoot a deer, drag it into town, and dump it on a doorstep without anyone knowing. I know every unit and every place in German was probably different, and just because his superiors probably ignored what he and some other solders were doing doesn't mean it was the same everywhere else. But, he did say he thought there was some unreasonable desire from higher up to make Germans civilians suffer from hunger.

Was there a point to all this babbling? If there's something in the article that needs improvement, describe it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.183.223.98 (talk) 19:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't quite see how this could be described as "babbling". Thank you for your thoughtful and self-critical contribution, it's appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.154.5 (talk) 00:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Senator Capehart

I pulled this from an old Wikipedia entry on Capehart.

Homer E. Capehart From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Revision as of 08:46, 31 July 2002; view current revision ← Older revision | Newer revision →

Senator Homer E. Capehart of Indiana addressed the United States Senate February 5, 1946 concerning this United States administration, which has been carrying on the deliberate policy of mass starvation (of Germans)without any distinction between the innocent and the helpless and the guilty alike."...

The senator said in part:

"The fact can no longer be suppressed, namely, the fact that is has been and continues to be, the deliberate policy of a confidential and conspiratorial clique within the policy-making circles of this government to draw and quarter a nation now reduced to abject misery...'In this process this clique, like a pack of hyenas struggling over the bloody entrails of a corpse, and inspired by a sadistic and fanatic hatred, are determined to destroy the German nation and the German people, no matter what the consequences."... "At Potsdam the representatives of the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Socialist Republics solemnly signed the following declaration of principles and purposes: "It is not the intention of the Allies to destroy or enslave the German people."

"Mr. President, the cynical and savage repudiation of these solemn declarations which has resulted in a major catastrophe, cannot be explained in terms of ignorance or incompetence. This repudiation, not only of the Potsdam Declaration, but also of every law of God and men, has been deliberately engineered with such a malevolent cunning, and with such diabolic skill, that the American people themselves have been caught in an international death trap."...

For nine months now this administration has been carrying on a deliberate policy of mass starvation without any distinction between the innocent and the helpless and the guilty alike."...

The first issue has been and continues to be merely humanitarian. This vicious clique within this administration that has been responsible for the policies and practices which have made a madhouse of central Europe has not only betrayed our American principles, but they have betrayed the GI's who have suffered and died, and they continue to betray the American GIs who have to continue their dirty work for them."...

"The second issue that is involved is the effect this tragedy in Germany has already had on the other European countries. Those who have been responsible for this deliberate destruction of the German state and this crimimal mass starvation of the German people have been so zealous in their hatred that all other interests and concerns have been subordinated to this one obsession of revenge. In order to accomplish this it mattered not if the liberated countries in Europe suffered and starved. To this point this clique of conspirators have addressed themselves:'Germany is to be destroyed. What happens to other countries of Europe in the process is of secondary importance."

Senator Homer. E Caphart of Indiana's remarks were interspersed with a mass of supporting evidence.

The Morgenthau Plan

I think this page would benefit from being put in context. The pages:

Expulsion of Germans after World War II

and the

Morgenthau Plan

Should give an idea of what else whas going on at the time, and where Eisenhower might have gotten his ideas, if indeed he was the criminal some people claim.

I realy don't know how to enter the links in the article though. Maybe it needs a section "further reading"?

Eisenhower and Morgenthau Plan

The Morgenthau Plan was a plan for the occupation of Germany after her surrender. It advocated partitioning of Germany into two nations, annexation of her main natural resources, the destruction of all heavy industry and mining, the conversion of the new "east" and "south" -german nations into primarily agricultural with some light industry. In his book Germany is Our Problem Morgenthau outlines his plan, including the part that Germans be utilised for forced labor outside its borders as reparations.

Eisenhower seems to have approved of this plan to the extent that he released 1000 free copies to his military officials in occupied Germany.

Dietrich is refering to a Stephen Ambrose book for Eisenhowers free release of a thousand copies of the Morgenthau Plan to the military officials in occupied Germany. John Dietrich. The Morgenthau Plan: Soviet Influence on American Postwar Policy (2002) pg. 27.

Eisenhower later insisted that the free distribution did not "constitude approval or disapproval of the views expressed.". Ambrose concludes that "There can be little doubt, however, that at the time, Eisenhower definitively did approve, just as there can be little doubt that in the August 1944 conversation Eisenhower gave Morgenthau at least some of his ideas on the treatment of Germany."

Dietrich references the following: Stephen Ambrose, Eisenhower: Soldier, General of the Army, President-Elect, p.422.

Stor stark7 16:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reality of Eisenhower and American Policy

I removed the following: This was mainly because Ike was a political general and not a fighting man himself during the war, therefore didn't understand the link between soldiers on the battle field that his fighting generals did. He was merely carrying out the policies of the US Government without regard to Geneva protocol, especially with regards to the up and coming Nuremberg Trials and the treatment of many officers who would testify.

It is a personal conclusion that is not warrented by anything in the article or referenced. My reason for his hostility to German POWs, seeing the death camps, has been widely documented.Arodb 20:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention that it ignores that Eisenhower already had 30 years in the military before the war started -in the infantry, tanks during WWI, etc. Rmhermen 00:47, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Marked as POV

The heading of the article begins not with a review of Eisenhower and German POWs, but with a summary of the allegations issued by one extremely controversial author. Bacque's views may deserve a discussion on Wikipedia, but the overview of this article should lay out the broad outline of the debate, not present one side and relegate the well-supported majority position to a section after the table of contents.

This is hardly the only problem with this article; I'll be documenting the rest, and hopefully rewriting a great deal of it, in the coming weeks. But for the time being, the article's structure is totally non-NPOV in that it gives undue space and prominence to one historical position.

Please sign any responses to this comment.

Rocketfairy 02:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re-write the intro paragraph, then. Put the Bacque info in a subsection. I also don't think that belongs in the intro either. Anyway, you were flagging the entire article as POV, not the section.Ernham 03:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the directions; in the meanwhile, there is an outstanding POV dispute about the article (I note you still haven't answered any of my concerns about framing), and Template:POV-check makes it clear that Template:POV is the appropriate tag for an article with such a dispute.

To recap my issues: The article starts not with an overall discussion of the subject and the supported points of view, but with "allegations". If it is a page about Bacque's views, it should be retitled; if it is a page about Eisenhower and German POWs, it should be comprehensive and not given such staggeringly unequal prominence to one point of view. Yes, the article should be edited; in the meanwhile, the POV tag helps put readers and editors on notice that the page needs work. Rocketfairy 03:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You don't like the intro paragraph? Change it. I tire of playing these games with you and sounding like a broken record. The wiki has both POVs, the intro is poorly written and predominantly deals with one side of the POVs. So fix it. Puttin POV on the wiki does not fix it.Ernham 21:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A POV tag -- indicating a dispute, since there obviously is one -- is appropriate in the interim, while I edit the intro. The intro (probably the most widely read part of the article) gives undue prominence and weight to the minority position, and virtually none to the majority, contra WP:WEIGHT.

If you don't like the POV tag, resolve the POV dispute. --Rocketfairy 21:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong title

The article should be renamed:

Eisenhauer represented USA. He wasn't the king of Germany.
What happened to the POWs? and according to the title.

Xx236 15:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question

"German infant mortality rate was twice that of other nations in Western Europe until the close of 1948" And what was the infant mortality rate in nations destroyed by Germany in Eastern Europe ? It would be interesting to know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.27.70.170 (talk) 19:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

The article should be renamed

Allegations of James Bacque regarding Eisenhower and German POWs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.27.70.170 (talk)

Agreed--or merged with James Bacque. --Rocketfairy 22:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree: Bacque brought topics to the surface that "reputable" historians failed to address either through sheer incompetence, or more likely because of cowardice, i.e. fear that it might harm their career to touch such an emotional/controversial subject. That Bacque, presumably, overestimated the number casualties does not detract from the fact that U.S. treatment of POW's is a notable enough topic that it merits space here as its own topic. I think the name is just fine. --Stor stark7 ^Talk 23:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No doubt there's a need for a general page on the topic, but this page doesn't provide a general overview; it is about Bacque's theories, as well as mainstream reactions to them. As before, it (including everything in the intro) is about his theories, not about the topic overall. Either the article should be reframed to conform with WP:WEIGHT or its actual topic should be clarified. --Rocketfairy 01:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article would benefit from being restructured, true. As it is, the only Bacque related text is in the short intro, while there is a large "Defence of Eisenhower subsection further down. The rest of the article is taken from other scholarly sources and just describes the situation. My suggestion is that we create a "controversy" subsection where we state Bacques and Ambroses positions, and only mention Bacque in the intro as the one who forced the topic to the surface. The rest of the intro should be devoted to what is actually established and was never challenged by Abbrose (I think), e.g. the U.S. refusal to allow the Red Cross to visit the camps, the use of the Soldiers for forced labor, relabeling them as Disarmed Enemy Forces in order to circumvent the Geneva conventions, much higher mortality rates amongst U.S. captives than amongst British captives etc. I still think Eisenhower's name should be included in the title, since as far as I can tell he basically had the final say on topics such as whether German soldiers should be handed over to the French and Russians. Since much of Ambroses refutal of Bacques cassualty figures rests on the food situation, apparently not touching the other deprivations, I think having a section on the general German food situation is also important. Reading the headings of the letters in response to Ambroses review of Bacque was interesting by the way [4]--Stor stark7 ^Talk 14:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not only Bacque !

This article implies that Bacque (and perhaps one or two others) is the only person making these claims against Eisenhower - this is incorrect. I am currently undertaking further research on this topic, and can already add the following people to the list :

1. Martin Brech – he wrote the book “In Eisenhower's Death Camps: A U.S. Prison Guard's Story”, in which he describes his personal experiences in Germany after the war.

2. Colonel Ernest F. Fisher, 101st Airborne Division, Senior Historian, United States Army – he wrote "Starting in April 1945, the United States Army and the French Army casually annihilated one million [German] men, most of them in American camps . . . Eisenhower's hatred, passed through the lens of a compliant military bureaucracy, produced the horror of death camps unequalled by anything in American history . . . an enormous war crime."

3. General Robert Littlejohn - in a memorandum, he informed Eisenhower that 1,550,000 Germans who were supposed to be receiving U.S. army rations were getting nothing.

4. Colonel James Mason and Colonel Charles Beasley, U.S. Army Medical Corps – they published a paper on the US prison camps in 1950, including the following description : "Huddled close together for warmth, behind the barbed wire was a most awesome sight; nearly 100,000 haggard, apathetic, dirty, gaunt, blank-staring men clad in dirty gray uniforms, and standing ankle deep in mud."

5. Max Huber, head of the International Red Cross – he wrote a letter to the U.S. State Department describing American interference in efforts to save starving Germans. Some months later he received a response, falsely claiming that giving Red Cross food to enemy personnel was forbidden.

6. Jean-Pierre Pradervand, head of the International Red Cross delegations in France - in late 1945 he told Henry W. Dunning (an American Red Cross official) that conditions in the French camps were worse, in many instances, than anything seen in the former Nazi camps.

And the list is still growing...

It is quite disgraceful that there appears to be an on-going deliberate attempt to cover up the atrocities committed by the US army in Germany after the war. I welcome further discussion, after which I intend to add the above material (and more) to the article.Logicman1966 12:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is complete BS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.202.129.54 (talk) 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Freedom of Information - UK sources

[British sources on starvation of Germans http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/apr/03/uk.freedomofinformation] What Allies in UK hid from the public for many decades, some evidence nevertheless remains

Also read wikipedia Bad Nenndorf. British were courtmarshalled for this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.201.57 (talk) 19:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Handing prisoners between allies

See also Talk:Allied war crimes during World War II/Archive 4#Niall_Ferguson

I have removed this sentence: "Violating the Geneva Convention of 1929, large numbers of German prisoners were transferred between the Allies." Because it is not true that it violated Geneva Convention (1929). Article 12 paragraph 2 was added to the Third_Geneva_Convention (1949) to cover this case see the ICRC commentary on the 12 Article paragraph 2 "The Conference of Government Experts gave immediate support to the proposal to prohibit any transfer of prisoners of war from a Power which was a party to the Convention to one which was not" (and if it had been in force during 1945 would have prohibited transfer from the Western Allies to the USSR which was not a signatory to the 1929 Geneva Convention). But the new article explicitly allows for the transfer between allies who are also signatories of the Geneva conventions. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Diction

"offers by Western European nations to trade food for desperately needed German coal and machinery were rejected. Neither the Italians nor the Dutch could sell the vegetables that they had previously sold in Germany, with the consequence that the Dutch had to destroy considerable proportions of their crop. Denmark offered 150 tons of lard a month; Turkey offered hazelnuts"

Turkey isn't a Western European nation. It isn't even a European nation.

194.46.229.92 (talk) 20:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

---Turkey isn't a European nation? That's up for debate, and there is no clear right or wrong side on that debate. However, excluding Turkey completely from Europe is problematic. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.195.83.239 (talk) 18:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A short obseration

I read "Other Losses" here in Canada immediately after publication. I remembering well my own childhood experiences in the British zone with lack of food in the post-war years. Raising livestock for protein was stictly 'verboten' and harshly punished with harsh penalties. We survived on the Canadian chocolate rations that my mother took in barter payment from Canadian military personnel. I watched playmates be deformed with rickets from near starvation.

When the book broke I asked my father -- a Luftwaffe squadron leader and base commander who served in northern Norway -- what had happened at the end of the war to his squadron. Not knowing anything about James Baque's book, he told me that he managed to fly his entire command down to Denmark for the surrender. There they were separated and shipped to the allied POW and DEF camps depending on where they had come from. After he was finally released from a British camp with some ration cards he regrouped the family near Oldenburg. He then tried hard to find his comrades. Having lost only a handful of people who served on the base during the war itself, it bothered him bitterly to the end of his life that, almost half of those he surrendered alive in Denmark in 1945 never made it home. Tracing them with the help of those that did survive, he knows that most of those that went into the US DEF camps (which I believe were in the Rhineland area) were sent into slave labour service in France and handed over to Soviets in the eastern zone never to be heard from again.

I can't attest to the veracity of the claims of Baque's book, only report what my father told me.

64.56.235.32 (talk) 22:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC) GMS[reply]