Talk:Poundra (caste)

Some Poundras are Baishnabs they are Achyuta Gotra. They converted to Vaishnavas during Bhakti Movement of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. They Practice Vaishnavism. They are Das and Adhikary titles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meetwithme234 (talk • contribs) 07:11, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Barman (2014)

In the pre-colonial literatures (such as Brihatdharma Purana, Brahmabaibartya Purana, Sibayan of Rameswar Bhattacharya and Annadamangal of Bharat Chandra Ray) the Poundras were classified as almost untouchable (as antaja, asatsudra, adhamsankara, etc).
— Barman, Rup Kumar (2014-01-01). "From Pods to Poundra: A Study on the Poundra Kshatriya Movement for Social Justice 1891–1956". Voice of Dalit. 7 (1): 121–138. doi:10.1177/0974354520140108. ISSN 0974-3545.

So many issues in a single line:

1. Asatsudra did not mean almost untouchable in Brh. P — such an assumption would span over half of the Uttam Sankaras alongside all of Madhyam Sankaras and Adham Sankaras. In any case, Poundras/Pods are not mentioned in Brh. P. [Furui, 2013] and Barman does not provide any source either.
2. About Bv. P., see my addition to the article.
3. More later incl. other parts of article.

TrangaBellam (talk) 10:37, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Offensive terms banned by high courts of India..

Use of the word "dalit" is discouraged and banned by high courts of India..please remove it.. Kk1141014036 (talk) 15:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Decision by Bombay High court 2018 banning the use of word dalit Kk1141014036 (talk) 15:48, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Indian courts don't have jurisdiction over Wikipedia, which is hosted in the United States, and Wikipedia is not censored. JBW (talk) 16:07, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Kshatriya reservation ...

Many kshatriya castes have reservation benefits like Yadav's Jats Marathas etc come under OBC and many others have ST like Kurmi ..or Meena who also are known to be kshatriya..some kushwaha caste come under EBC too.

Poundra were recognised as kshatriya by government of West Bengal during 1950 and are mentioned as kshatriya in government records so officially they are kshatriya... Kk1141014036 (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

On 14 December 1939, Patiram Roy MLA placed the demand before the Bengal Legislative Assembly for identifying the community as Paundra-Kshatria, and the proposal was carried in the Assembly. Earlier on 6 May 1938, the secretary of the Bengal government in a letter appraised Patiram Roy that the community would be designated as 'Paundra-Kshatria' in the official documents and in proceedings of the court. Kk1141014036 (talk) 16:19, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Historical sources to support the kshatriya tag given..the status of Poundta as kshatriya continue till today Kk1141014036 (talk) 16:21, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Factual information

Maurya community which is known to be the ancestors of Mauryan dynasty are currently under Backward classes...many kshatriya too have reservation and quata benefits which doesn't qualify them to be called as Dalits.. Kk1141014036 (talk) 16:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 September 2022

Hi, It was me who requested a protection on this page but it appears that somebody edited this page before it was protected. Anyways here are few corrections that can be done: Poundras are also known as Poundra Kshatriyas here is a source to proof my claim(the truth) "Simultaneously, they adopted certain rituals from the caste Hindus to legitimize their demand. At the same time they placed their appeal to the colonial G9vernment for recognition of a respectable caste identity. They also initiated social reforms including the spread of education in their own society for materializing the dreams of achieving respectable caste status. In such a context of colonial society of Bengal, in this article I shall highlight the social movement of the Pods of Bengal who demanded Poundra (Kshatriya) identity for achieving respect and social justice what was granted by the Government of Independent India in 1956" and also, Though they are included in the scheduled castes, they are not Dalits.

}} Aceofalljackofnone (talk) 20:21, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: You'll need to provide information on where that quote came from. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:42, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2022 (2)

Meetwithme234 (talk) 06:24, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Some Poundras are Baishnabs they are Achyuta Gotra. They converted to Vaishnavas during Bhakti Movement of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. They Practice Vaishnavism. They are Das and Adhikary titles.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 09:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Before somebody files a PIL (Public Interest Litigation), kindly remove the term "Pode" from Wikipedia as it has already been renounced

Paundra-Kshatria is a section of the scheduled caste community specifically earmarked in the schedule as Paundra-Kshatria. In the 1872 census report, the people of this community are designated as 'Pode'. In consequence of the movement of the Paundra-Kshatrias, though the word 'Paundra' was inserted within brackets after the designation 'Pode' in the census report of 1921, the insertion was found deleted in the census report of 1931. On December 14, 1939, Patiram Roy MLA placed the demand before the Bengal Legislative Assembly for identifying the community as Paundra-Kshatria, and the proposal was carried in the Assembly. Earlier, on May 6, 1938, the secretary of the Bengal government, in a letter, appraised Patiram Roy that the community would be designated as 'Paundra-Kshatria' in the official documents and in the proceedings of the court. Sourin666 (talk) 13:18, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey Sourin666, please note that Wikipedia is not censored! Ekdalian (talk) 14:12, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Please don't forget that the inciting and misleading article can also be changed or edited, Ekdalian. In addition, the content encourages caste discrimination by using the phrase "Paundra caste Pod," which violates Article 15 of The Constitution of India, which states that discrimination based on caste, race, religion, sex, or place of birth is unacceptable and is a crime punishable by Indian Penal Code (IPC) Section 153A Sourin666 (talk) 18:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Sourin666, previously the name of the article was Pod (caste). I moved the page to Poundra (caste). Please note that Wikipedia isn't censored and Indian laws/acts do not apply on it. Pod name is still in use by scholars and in official records. "Free knowledge for one and all" is our motto, We don't encourage any type of discrimination. Thanks.CharlesWain (talk) 19:08, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

CharlesWain How in the world is the term "pod" still used in the article if the page has already been updated to Poundra (caste)? It also mentions that we find the term "pod" offensive, but why bring it up if you already know it is? If Indian laws do not work, it appears that the only option is to involve influential people in revealing your biased falsehoods and also provide further details about the specific academics using the term 'pod' and display a single instance of a document that references "pod" after the Bengal Legislative Assembly approved the resolution on December 14, 1939, in response to Patiram Roy, MLA, calling for the name to be changed from Paundra-Kshatria. Why don't you try to conduct ten rounds of research before making a statement? It is useless to spread erroneous information under the guise of free knowledge. Sourin666 (talk) 04:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Sourin666, Here is the list of the scheduled castes of West Bengal -list; Please Check number 53 on the list.CharlesWain (talk) 05:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

CharlesWain, Please produce a legal document stating that members of the caste Poundra are dalits or untouchables. Sourin666 (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Why legal document? Indian laws are not applicable for Wikipedia! Many people think 'Shudra' word is offensive in caste articles of Bengal, we don't remove the same! Accept the truth. Ekdalian (talk) 07:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey Sourin666, please be advised that any further legal threats will result in a request for WP:NLT. If you have any sources to support your claim, you are welcome to present them here. Additionally, please note that WP:SYN or WP:OR are not permitted.Thanks, Satnam2408 (talk) 08:14, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Satnam2408, Do you have any credible evidence to support your claim that Poundra / Poundra-Kshatriyas belong to the dalit (untouchable) caste? If not, why did you mention the caste of Dalits (untouchables) in the article ? Sourin666 (talk) 08:30, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Ekdalian Yes, I am aware that there is no concrete evidence to support your claim that Poundra-Kshatriyas belong to the dalit caste. Nevertheless, you continue to assert that Poundra-Kshatriyas are dalits, proving once again how phony and misleading Wikipedia can be. Sourin666 (talk) 08:20, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey Sourin666, I have never edited the article. However, as a responsible editor, I have informed you about the relevant policies. Hey Ekdalian, and CharlesWain, I have replaced the term 'Dalit' with the legal term 'Scheduled Caste'. If you think the term is not perfect, you can change it. Thanks, Satnam2408 (talk) 08:56, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Appreciate your assistance, Satnam2408, CharlesWain, and Ekdalian. After all, entries on Wikipedia ought to be accurate and appropriate. Sourin666 (talk) 12:56, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Poundras Religion

Poundras are Hindu. They are Madhukalya Gotra. Some Poundras are Vaishnavas or Baishnabs Sampradaya. They are Achyuta Gotra . They converted to Vaishnavas during Bhakti Movement of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu . They Practice Vaishnavism . They are Das and Adhikary and Mohanta titles. Infox36 (talk) 06:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

The supporting references indicate that article revisions are necessary

The highlighted text from the references indicates that specific terminologies have been emphasized in the article, while others have not. The supporting reference from Sage Publishing states, "Lack of education and social restrictions made them an ‘oppressed social category’ who can be categorized as 'Dalits'." However, the reference also states, "In such a context as the colonial society of Bengal, in this article I shall highlight the social movement of the Pods of Bengal who demanded Poundra (Kshatriya) identity for achieving respect and social justice, which was granted by the Government of Independent India in 1956." Therefore, the request is to either highlight that Poundras are Kshatriyas or to remove the untouchable terminology from the article. Sourin666 (talk) 06:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The government is nobody to confer a varna-status on a caste/sub-caste/jati; it can, at most, assign/withdraw a "Scheduled Caste" (or like) status on a holistic evaluation — that includes but is not limited to theological hiearchy — of the community.

So, what is alluded to in Barman's abstract? In the original Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order of 1950 (p. 169), 'Pod' was designated as a Scheduled Caste in Bengal. However, in 1956, when an ammendment was pushed through (p. 868), the entry became 'Pod or Poundra'. I need to consult the associated Statement of Objects and Reasons but [W]hat is apparent is that the Government recognized a sizeable chunk (or perhaps, a vocal minority) of 'Pods' to have rebranded themselves as 'Poundras'. Nothing more, nothing less. It might be of interest to note that as of 2016, the entry remained (p. 14) the same. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion's focal point is maintaining consistency regarding terminology from the Sage journal. If the untouchable terminology is added, then it's necessary to include the assertion that Poundras are Kshatriya as well. Adherence to Wikipedia's guidance necessitates comprehensive inclusion or exclusion of relevant information; selective inclusion is inappropriate. Sourin666 (talk) 13:52, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Competency is required and you are going to end up blocked — this time for an indefinite length of time — unless you stop pushing your own agenda. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:08, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

It appears that you are suggesting a block on my contributions. Could you please elucidate the specific reasons for this suggestion? I must admit, I am not cognizant of the agenda you are alluding to. Your conduct, from my perspective, seems to be offensive. I would respectfully request that you strive to uphold the principle of good faith in your interactions with others, as this is a guideline set forth by Wikipedia. Sourin666 (talk) 14:31, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

As I said, competence is required. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

They [Pod caste leaders] formed a committee known as Paundra Kshatriya Name Legislation Committee. In 1956, Sakti Sarkar went as a delegate to New Delhi and submitted the following appeal to the President of India:

The Hon'ble President,
Indian Union,
New Delhi.

Revered Sir,

On behalf of the six lakhs of inhumanly treated people of the 'Paundra Kshatriya' community of West Bengal, we beg to submit this appeal before you for your kind consideration and immediate judicious action therein.

That the Paundra Kshatriya community, one of the Scheduled Castes of West Bengal who have been termed as Pod (synonymous of term 'RECTUM' in English), a distorted word in the record. As a result even in this age of marked progress, wherever members of this community move in bazaars or in public places, in villages or in towns, in every sphere of activities, they are purposely called and insulted directly or indirectly by this word 'Pod'. This enrolled term is a word that bears a nuisance sense and an insulting ingredient in it. It is motivated by a discriminatory will and it creates a constant bitterness among us with other castes. This word also arrests the upliftment of this backward community due to constant pressure of psychological complex.

In view of the all round backwardness of this community the Government was highly judicious to classify this community, as one of the Scheduled caste for whom constitutional guarantees have been ensured for their upliftment. But the name of this community, as enrolled in the list, deserves your kind consideration for amendment and we feel bitterly embarrassed and helpless to see that this imaginary jesting term has not yet been removed in spite ot repeated requests to the Government for long years.

Humanly treatrnent is of equal importance and necessity as is material help towards the upliftment of the backward communities. With this end in view the Government has proceeded far even to promulgate laws prohibiting untouchability so that the backward communities may expect and have humanly treatment from communities of higher social status. 'Paundra Kshatriya' the original name of this community has been termed as 'POD' in the record and we solicit your human consideration for this abusive term. The name 'Paundra Kshatriya' is based on history and science, the word 'POD' is philological distortion of 'Paundra Kshatriya'. 'Paundra Kshatriya' does not come in confict with the name of any other cnnmunity in West Bengal or India at large—nor does it bear any sense synonymous to the sense of any other community in the country.

Under these circumstances. we lay before you four thousand signature (separately printed for each) from different districts and different police stations (classifiably shown) and beg to request your immediate intervention in legalising the name 'Paundra Kshatriya' in place of 'Pod' for the sense of justice and equality in favour of us in this area of our own national socialistic Government.

Date, the 24th March, 1956,
Laksman Kutir, Garfa, Calcutta-32

Yours faithfully,

Sakti Kumar Sarkar,

Secretary,

Paundra Kshatriya Name Legislation Committee.

In reply of Paundra Kshatriya Name Legislation Committee's appeal, the Assistant Commissioner for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes sent a letter to Sri Sakti Sarkar, Secretary, Paundra Kshatriya Name Legislation Committee. In the letter it was stated the caste name 'Pod' has been bracketed with 'Paundra' in the Scheduled Caste List of West Bengal appended with the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Orders (Amendment) Bill 1956, that has already been moved in the Parliament. On 26th December 1956 for the first time, the Pod community was recorded as Pod or Paundra in the Calcutta Gazette Extraordinary (Part IA. pp. 2974, item 37)

In the view of Datta Gupta (1959), "... These efforts directed towards the change of the popular name Pod and extrication from the list of Scheduled Castes, were thought to be reassuring for claims as clean Hindu caste." But ultimately demands were not fulfilled except Paundra has been put in brackets along with their community name in the govemment notification. Even they are not recognised as Kshatriya and are still in the list of scheduled caste.
— The Unrest Axle: Ethno-social Movements in Eastern India, pp. 178-180

David G. Mandelbaum, speaking of the same episode, notes the Pods to have had succeeded in changing their name to a "more mellifluos term" but that their other "mobility goals" were not (yet) achieved, as of 1970. To conclude, as I had said at the outset without digging into sources,

[W]hat is apparent is that the Government recognized a sizeable chunk (or perhaps, a vocal minority) of 'Pods' to have rebranded themselves as 'Poundras'. Nothing more, nothing less.

As and when I have time, I will dig out the Calcutta Gazette notification; btw, if anybody wishes to consult Datta Gupta (1959), the full reference is "A study on the Paundra Kshatriya of West Bengal. Bulletin of the Department of Anthropology, Government of India 8 : 109- 130." Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 15:11, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The content provided diverges from the references outlined in the Poudra Caste article. Please refrain from veering off-topic repeatedly. Sourin666 (talk) 15:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Huh? TrangaBellam (talk) 15:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Allow me to clarify further: Kindly provide corroborating evidence indicating that Poundras are considered untouchable. Sourin666 (talk) 16:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Our article has,

the Poundras have been historically subject to acute discrimination — including untouchability — [...]

So, why shall I provide evidence for the fact that the Poundras are considered untouchable? If you replace 'are' with 'were', then Barman (2014) is the source. This is CIR at best and sealioning at worst. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:12, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

@Sourin666 Tranga is correct here. You are attempting to obtain a non-neutral article which ignores the well-documented phenomenon of sanskritisation. You are not going to get it. - Sitush (talk) 16:25, 12 March 2024 (UTC)